A Question for the Calvinist

[Ladodgers6]

AH - You need a Trinity to Redeem God's people from their sins...

I knew there was a reason only 16% of Christians believe in Trinity.

Oh, you deny the Trinity? Well, the Bible does say that in the end times, more false teachers and scoffers will manifest.

 

[Ladodgers6]

But the Catholic Church does not teach that we receive initial justification by good works. You do not have to do good works in order to come to God and be justified.

The Council of Trent states: “We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For ‘if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,’ as the apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’ [Rom. 11:6]” (Decree on Justification 8).

Well, I suggest you should go research the Reformation era. Because the controversy was all about how is a sinner justified before a Holy God. It's either by imputed (declaration) or imparted (make righteous), meaning it's by an inherent righteousness of the believers that justifies him.

This was the debate between Luther and Erasmus. And it was Erasmus who laid the egg that Luther hatched, when Erasmus said that it's a declaration not a impart righteousness that justifies a sinner.

 

[miss managed]

Oh, you deny the Trinity? Well, the Bible does say that in the end times, more false teachers and scoffers will manifest.

I know - and they all belong to a false religion OUTSIDE of Christianity.

Jesus - I believe him. He said the Father is Greater.

The word firstborn...

Quote just ONE verse where FIRSTBORN implies ETERNAL! You can't do it because ONE doesn't exist!

And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

Through faith he kept the Passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, G4416 which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

In every instance where the word 'firstborn' is used, whether it's about the firstborn among the brethren, or the firstborn over all creation, or the firstborn from among the dead, or the firstborn into the world - or anything else - it always implies a beginning! NOT ONCE does it imply ETERNAL. The Textus Receptus uses the terminology, "BEFORE-most-BROUGHT-FORTH.

 

[Carbon]

Your buddies - the high-powered Trinitarians will tell you that Trinity is NOT explicit but implicit. You put it together by fabricating things from here and there.

Wrong. If you would like, I have no problem showing you proof in scripture. But it has to be civil.

 

[Ladodgers6]

But the Catholic Church does not teach that we receive initial justification by good works. You do not have to do good works in order to come to God and be justified.

The Council of Trent states: “We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For ‘if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,’ as the apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’ [Rom. 11:6]” (Decree on Justification 8).

CANON 9: “If any one saith, that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to co-operate in order to the obtaining the grace of Justification and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema.”

So, Rome here is clear that it is not Faith Alone that Justifies, but Faith plus works that Justify. But Paul is crystal clear that our works do not Justify us other than only to Justify to condemn us. Because our works are tainted with sin. This is why only and solely the works of Christ that are freely given to those who believe in Him who justifies the ungodly will be counted righteous and justified. (Galatians 4:4-10)

 

[Ladodgers6]

Jesus - I believe him. He said the Father is Greater.

So, you believe Jesus is a prophet, or like John the Bapist?

 

[miss managed]

Wrong. If you would like, I have no problem showing you proof in scripture. But it has to be civil.

I'm not talking about scripture - I'm talking about your high-powered Trinitarian buddies. They flat out will tell you that...

Your buddies at CRI say, "The doctrine of the Trinity, an implicit truth, is built on explicit truths found in the Old and New Testaments:"

That's a totally contradictory statement!

Your buddies at Crosswalk say, "the Bible does not expound upon the doctrine of the Trinity in any one place. However, there are five elements found repeatedly throughout the Bible’s text that are best interpreted through the lens of the Trinity:

See look! They ar looking at this "through the lns of the Trinity"

Which says they look FIRST at Trinity and fabricate everything around it.

WIKI, "While the developed doctrine of the Trinity is not explicit in the books that constitute the New Testament",

https://www.biblicaltheology.com/Research/PrimacyAGA04.pdf

Not only is the word “Trinity” never found in the Bible, but there is no substantive proof that such a doctrine is even indicated. Karl Rahner recognizes that theologians in the past have been embarrassed by the simple fact that in reality the Scriptures do not explicitly present a doctrine of the ‘imminent’ Trinity (even in the Apostle John’s prologue there is no such doctrine).”7 Other theologians also recognize the fact that the first chapter of John’s Gospel the prologue—clearly shows the pre-existence and divinity of Christ, but does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity

Enough said

 

[Ladodgers6]

What charge were the Jews making against Jesus to kill him?

Can a mere man claim to be God? If such a man makes this claim in days of Jesus, what happen to him?

Can a mere man be worshipped?

 

[miss managed]

So, you believe Jesus is a prophet, or like John the Bapist?

Well Jesus always speaks 'from his human form' because he was 100% human. Can you show me how - in scripture - how, when, and where Jesus speaks from his 'god nature'. Of course, Jesus was speaking from his human form when he said the 'Father is greater'! He has no other FORM! Trinitarians use that line when Jesus' own words clearly debunk trinitarian co-equality!

Can you show me in scripture where Jesus speaks from his so called, 'divine nature'? You can't because Jesus was a fully human being empowered by angels and the holy spirits POWER! And no such scripture exist!

I believe Jesus was divine. He had a special measure of the holy spirit. Even so, at times, he needed the help and encouragement from angels to help him pull through.

 

[Carbon]

I'm not talking about scripture - I'm talking about your high-powered Trinitarian buddies. They flat out will tell you that...



That's a totally contradictory statement!

Your buddies at Crosswalk say, "the Bible does not expound upon the doctrine of the Trinity in any one place. However, there are five elements found repeatedly throughout the Bible’s text that are best interpreted through the lens of the Trinity:

See look! They ar looking at this "through the lns of the Trinity"

Which says they look FIRST at Trinity and fabricate everything around it.

WIKI, "While the developed doctrine of the Trinity is not explicit in the books that constitute the New Testament",

https://www.biblicaltheology.com/Research/PrimacyAGA04.pdf

Not only is the word “Trinity” never found in the Bible, but there is no substantive proof that such a doctrine is even indicated. Karl Rahner recognizes that theologians in the past have been embarrassed by the simple fact that in reality the Scriptures do not explicitly present a doctrine of the ‘imminent’ Trinity (even in the Apostle John’s prologue there is no such doctrine).”7 Other theologians also recognize the fact that the first chapter of John’s Gospel the prologue—clearly shows the pre-existence and divinity of Christ, but does not teach the doctrine of the Trinity

Think as you like. But do not try and teach against the Trinity here, it will not be tolerated.

Enough said

I sure hope so.

 

[Carbon]

Well Jesus always speaks 'from his human form' because he was 100% human. Can you show me how - in scripture - how, when, and where Jesus speaks from his 'god nature'. Of course, Jesus was speaking from his human form when he said the 'Father is greater'! He has no other FORM! Trinitarians use that line when Jesus' own words clearly debunk trinitarian co-equality!

Can you show me in scripture where Jesus speaks from his so called, 'divine nature'? You can't because Jesus was a fully human being empowered by angels and the holy spirits POWER! And no such scripture exist!

I believe Jesus was divine. He had a special measure of the holy spirit. Even so, at times, he needed the help and encouragement from angels to help him pull through.

You said. Enough said, stick to it.

 

[miss managed]

What charge were the Jews making against Jesus to kill him?

Can a mere man claim to be God? If such a man makes this claim in days of Jesus, what happen to him?

Can a mere man be worshipped?

The Pharisees were troubled because they taught that the law saved. But Jesus' teaching threatened they're job prospects - like they're going down the tubes.

 

[miss managed]

Think as you like. But do not try and teach against the Trinity here, it will not be tolerated.

I sure hope so.

Happens all the time - EDIT ADMIN

Hey - Psalm 55,

It is not an enemy who taunts me—
I could bear that.
It is not my foes who so arrogantly insult me—
I could have hidden from them.

Instead, it is you—my equal,
my companion and close friend.

What good fellowship we once enjoyed
as we walked together to the house of God.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Well Jesus always speaks 'from his human form' because he was 100% human. Can you show me how - in scripture - how, when, and where Jesus speaks from his 'god nature'. Of course, Jesus was speaking from his human form when he said the 'Father is greater'! He has no other FORM! Trinitarians use that line when Jesus' own words clearly debunk trinitarian co-equality!

Can you show me in scripture where Jesus speaks from his so called, 'divine nature'? You can't because Jesus was a fully human being empowered by angels and the holy spirits POWER! And no such scripture exist!

I believe Jesus was divine. He had a special measure of the holy spirit. Even so, at times, he needed the help and encouragement from angels to help him pull through.

Well, Miss Manages, like the name BTW. One thing I have learned over decades of learning and studying Scripture is to understand the concepts, narratives, and the unfolding eschatological redemptive history to the consummation and exaltation of the Son to fulfill the Covenant of Redemption pact within the Triune Trinity.

I see you need help here to understand what is going on. I will first quote from Jesus himself. In John 8: 58, Jesus says, " Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Does this sound familiar to you? So, how can Christ 100% human and not God according to you. Live before Abraham? When Moses asks God what his name is, what does God say to him?

Exodus 3:13 Then Moses asked God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is His name?’ What should I tell them?” 14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Here you go right out of Jesus' mouth.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

The Pharisees were troubled because they taught that the law saved. But Jesus' teaching threatened they're job prospects - like they're going down the tubes.

No, no, no, the Pharisees charged him with blasphemy. Be honest with yourself. What is Blasphemy?

 

[Ladodgers6]

Doesn't scripture that God doesn't share His glory with anyone else?

Isaiah 42:8 I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other

So, why do the disciples and people worship Jesus, isn't this against God's commandments?

Matt. 28:8 So they departed quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9And behold, Jesus met them and said, “Greetings!” And they came up and took hold of his feet and worshiped him.

They worshipped him because they knew who he is. "I AM"!

 

[miss managed]

Well, Miss Manages, like the name BTW. One thing I have learned over decades of learning and studying Scripture is to understand the concepts, narratives, and the unfolding eschatological redemptive history to the consummation and exaltation of the Son to fulfill the Covenant of Redemption pact within the Triune Trinity.

I see you need help here to understand what is going on. I will first quote from Jesus himself. In John 8: 58, Jesus says, " Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Does this sound familiar to you? So, how can Christ 100% human and not God according to you. Live before Abraham? When Moses asks God what his name is, what does God say to him?

Exodus 3:13 Then Moses asked God, “Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, ‘The God of your fathers has sent me to you,’ and they ask me, ‘What is His name?’ What should I tell them?” 14God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I AM has sent me to you.’”

Here you go right out of Jesus' mouth.​

I hate spoon-feeding but sometimes I have to do it...

I AM simply means Jesus existed before Moses.

Erroneous conflation with the Greek phrase for ‘I am’ (ego eimi)​

Many Christians conflate the “I am” statements of Jesus, ἐγώ εἰμι (ego eimi) in Greek, to God revealing his name as the “I AM WHO I AM” in Exodus 3:14. However, a simple contextual reading of the New Testament passages containing ἐγώ εἰμι demonstrate this is clearly not the case. In fact, many passages containing the words “I am” distinguish Jesus from being one and the same as God the Father. We must be careful to not read meaning into a fragment of a sentence other than its normal use. It is evident from context of many Scriptural references that the use of ego eimi by Jesus and others is not meant to be conflated with God revealing his name in Exodus 3:14. For example, Luke 24:39 when Jesus presents himself upon being resurrected bodily he makes reference to his hands and feet saying, “it is I myself (ego eimi),” in contrast to a spirit that does not have flesh and bones. The “I am” statements of John’s gospel should not be conflated with Almighty God. It is clear from John 20:30-31, that “these things are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”

I am Statements | TrueUnitarian.com

Who do you say that I am? Understanding how Jesus identifies himself in the Gospels

trueunitarian.com

 

[miss managed]

You said. Enough said, stick to it.

If people continue asking questions or respond - so will I. I'll lay off on this thread.

 

[Ladodgers6]

I hate spoon-feeding but sometimes I have to do it...

I AM simply means Jesus existed before Moses.

I like being spoon fed. Anyways, this statement gives your paradigm huge problems. You claim Jesus is not God, if not God, how could Jesus live before Abraham.

You can try to dismiss Jesus claiming to be "I AM". Which was a sin against God himself. He is taking Glory for himself that he is "I AM" before Abraham lived. This is why the Pharisees charged Him with blasphemy and wanted to kill him. Sorry, Miss-handled, but these Jews knew more than you do. Because this is precisely what Jesus was claiming, to be God.

Jesus' disciples and the crowd fell to the feet of Jesus and worshipped him. Sorry, miss-informed but don't understand what's going on here.​

 

[miss managed]

I like being spoon fed. Anyways, this statement gives your paradigm huge problems. You claim Jesus is not God, if not God, how could Jesus live before Abraham.

You can try to dismiss Jesus claiming to be "I AM". Which was a sin against God himself. He is taking Glory for himself that he is "I AM" before Abraham lived. This is why the Pharisees charged Him with blasphemy and wanted to kill him. Sorry, Miss-handled, but these Jews knew more than you do. Because this is precisely what Jesus was claiming, to be God.

Jesus' disciples and the crowd fell to the feet of Jesus and worshipped him. Sorry, miss-informed but don't understand what's going on here.​

Just think...

We are ONE inhabited planet in our solar system. Christians have come up with the absurdity that EARTH is the only planet in the universe with humans on it.