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A Question for the Arminian

Then by practice you have people born again in sin.
Salvation happens in the Temporal Order; in the Twinkling of an Eye. Therefore, the Logical Order is an Abstract. You assert that Regeneration before Faith is our being in Sin. What's the difference between an Age of Accountability, and being Born Again before Faith?
 
agreed you do not
I see I did not post this. wrote this yesterday
All, as you see it, according to TEMPORAL sequence of events
I just see what Jesus said in his words.

Temporal events? is this your reasoning? is this supposed to help me change my mind? To change the meaning of the words of Jesus? Is that what you want me to do?


You have read John 3:10-18 no more than I have. Why would you consider me reading it again, as biased as I am in what comes across as the Reformed POV, to be any different in use that the last time I did? Again.
feel free
You see things so little different from how I did, back a few years ago, that I know well how hard you must try to make the pieces fit.
I do not have to try hard at all. Once again, stop assuming things

they fit perfectly well to me.. There is no contradiction in my view.

My view may not fit well in your view. but I can't help that..

but please. again, do not falsely state I am trying to make things fit that do not fit in my view. because they do


You do not want to deny human responsibility, and justice, fairness, by God, but you cannot see how God's sovereignty amplifies that responsibility and justice, rather than diminishing them.
Actually I agree here.

when someone comes to faith. who gets the glory, God or man?

God does. because he did the work

When someone continues in unbeliefg. who gets the credit? God or man?

in the spiritual world. God gets the glory, Because God died for them to.. No one can blame God that they went to hell.. They reject God God did not reject them.
I agree it makes no sense to YOU, and I also readily admit that I can be wrong,
then why did you tell people I can't see the truth?

why do you continually say this?
very wrong, and can fool myself, and believe what I do because for once, Scripture makes perfect sense to me without me feeling that I must stretch anything. Salvation is entirely of Grace, and not of my own doing in any way. And so I do what it does in me.
I do not know what you believed before.. so I can not help you understand what you see now. all I can do is look at the word. and show what I see.

I have had many people say they used to believe like me, 90 % of the time, I found that to be false. they never believed as i did.

for the 10 % they never told me what they believed so I could not determine
My appeal was out of frustration. I dearly want you to look at Scripture from an eternal perspective.
I do. and it is an insult for you to continue to accuse me of not seeing it from an eternal perspective.

This just shows me again, your looking through the lens of your belief. and not what i am actually saying.
What drives me concerning the church, probably more than anything else, is valid, strong doctrine of the Person and Being of God. HE made us and not we ourselves.
I do not think I made myself.

again, I agree with you. some who claim they have faith in God are self motivated. and we can see this by what they believe, 50% of them believe salvation can be lost

the other 50% believe you can say a sinners pray with no faith and no repentance and live like the world. and your still saved.

I believe neither of these false gospels.

I believe as you do. It is ALL OF GOD. Many thousand s of people in my local church believe the same way. Every church I have ever been to 9except one where we had a health wealth pastor replace one who left) believed this way.

this is not a belief that is solely of a reformed outlook.. Nor did the reformed church start this belief, it was taught in the word. in the NT..
This is an eternal fact, permeating time, from beginning to end, and for all eternity, we are HIS creation, and not yet what he has completed.
Amen 100% Never said otherwise
I may be wrong. I most certainly don't see the whole picture, and no doubt grasp at many straws myself. But this has replaced even my concern —but for what time I insist to disobey— over my own salvation, this joy of seeing God at work, and his satisfaction in the work of his hands.
I am the same way.. we agree 100 % on this.

I am dumbfounded as to why you can not see or believe this
Read post #30
will do
 
Presume? I should think even you presume that you reject them.
why would I?

I would have to reject them

I reject YOUR reality.

I do not reject grace
The Doctrines of Grace are a specific set of carefully studied and derived and rendered doctrines, specific to Calvinism/Reformed attendance. Not the same meaning as the word, "grace". I do not say you reject grace, when I say you reject the doctrines of Grace. Whether you reject grace or not, is a different question.

What I have said is that your view is self-deterministic. I don't say you are self-determined. In spite of anyone's best efforts, (or maybe better said, in use of their best and worst efforts), God determines absolutely all things. You are not self-determined. But your doctrine is along the lines of those who read and think and speak and even outright defend self-deterministic thinking. Whether you mean to or not, your thinking is self-deterministic at the root.

GOD DREW ME, GOD CONVINCED ME, GOD TAUGHT ME, GOD GAVE ME GRACE, GOD BROUGHT ME TO FAITH
And so, it is left up to you to choose, no? Thus it is your choice, prior to regeneration, that effects your salvation, and upon which your destiny turns.

all I did was not walk away in in belief.
Was that not, as I say, a reaction to what God had already done in you? What is it that makes THAT ("not walking away in [unbelief]" causal of faith, belief, submission, salvation, regeneration, repentance, and all the virtues that accompany that 'moment' of salvation?

I don't mean to belittle you, but that sounds like equivocation to me, to say, "all I did was not walk away in [unbelief]." But even there, works is evident: "...I did...".

Yes, we will all be measured by our own standard.
Good God. do you listen to yourself?

Everything you see or here me say is filtered through your belief system.

You belittle. accuse. do all these things, then try to put the blame on me.

Alot of things are making sense now. since all this came out yesterday
 
Salvation happens in the Temporal Order; in the Twinkling of an Eye. Therefore, the Logical Order is an Abstract. You assert that Regeneration before Faith is our being in Sin. What's the difference between an Age of Accountability, and being Born Again before Faith?
Not sure I believe in the age of accountability doctrine. I think in Gods omniscience he knows if a person would believe if they lived or not.

But that is just my view.

The problem I have with this moment in time view. is one must be regenerated. Take time to discern what is being made known to him at this time. and decide if he wants to believe or not.

I just do not see the time for this to happen.

Anyway, Thank you brother. Had many great chats with you and respect you as a brother. But I have to leave..
 
Not sure I believe in the age of accountability doctrine. I think in Gods omniscience he knows if a person would believe if they lived or not.

But that is just my view.

The problem I have with this moment in time view. is one must be regenerated. Take time to discern what is being made known to him at this time. and decide if he wants to believe or not.

I just do not see the time for this to happen.

Anyway, Thank you brother. Had many great chats with you and respect you as a brother. But I have to leave..
The Condemning Law in the Spirit's hand Circumcises the Heart; this is when we're Born Again. The Time to decide is the time it takes to Commit to the Gospel and Confess Jesus Christ as our Lord. But the Time it seems to take, is not the real Time. That Time you feel that it takes, is the Growth of the Seed which is already there; Faith is inevitable. Faith is the Seed Sown by God; it is there from beginning, right? So what seems like Time, really isn't Time. It's part of the Crop; the Crop takes time. Faith is the first Fruit of the Crop; whether it be 1 Fruit of 30, 1 Fruit of 60 or 1 Fruit of 100 fold...
 
in the spiritual world. God gets the glory, Because God died for them to.. No one can blame God that they went to hell.. They reject God God did not reject them.
There is no glory for God in failure and you have described here a God who failed to acquire what he died for. To make matters worse, he failed because man (the creature God made) "outwitted" him.

But all that aside the pure ludicrousness of the statement, "God died for people who reject him" should be examined. We can do that by asking and answering some questions.

Q What did Jesus die in order to accomplish?
A. It took the just penalty for the sins of people, providing forgiveness of their sin and his righteousness imputed to them.

Q. If it took the penalty for their sins would not all sins be forgiven on the cross, even the sins of those who reject him since the debt was fully paid by his death?
A. Yes, of course. Paid is paid. It cannot be both paid and not paid at the same time.

Q. Then why do those who reject Christ pay the penalty for sin themselves?
A. Astute question. That would indeed be unjust to Christ, the very one who gave his life for the forgiveness of sin. And it would be unjust to the one who rejected Christ, because he was required to pay a debt that Christ already paid for.

Q. Then why do so many say he died to pay for the sins of all?
A. Many reasons I suppose. That is simply what they have been taught and are afraid to get out of the box. Maybe they have been trusting in their own decision for so long that to turn from that is scary. Maybe they can't get past a definition of love as all being given equal opportunity. Maybe it is just the need of our fallen nature to operate independent of God. Self governance.

Q. What do you mean by "their own choosing"?
A. In order to get around the illogic of Christ paying the debt of sin for all and not paying for the sins of all at the same time, a caveat is added. Grace unto salvation is not given, but offered, and that for the sake of God, in love, not "forcing" anyone to be saved, but instead honoring and respecting their free will to do as they please, he lets them choose whether or not to accept the gift.

Q.That doesn't sound like God. But then, wouldn't that mean he did not really die for everyone, paying the sin debt for everyone?
A. Indeed it would.

Q. Does the Bible tell us that God only offers grace for salvation, and that he does this to honor and respect or free will to do as we please?
A. No. At least I have never found it and no one who believes that has been able to show that to be so.

Q. So who did he die for then if not everyone?
A. Those God chose to be in Christ before the foundation of the world, predestined them to come to Christ, and called them to Christ.

Q. Does the Bible say that?
A. Over and over again. The apostles refer to believers as the "called," the "elect", those "chosen by God", the "foreknown". Paul says in Romans 8:29-30 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified. and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Q. Wow! Does that mean we don't have anything to do with our coming to salvation or our being conformed to the image of Christ after?
A. You hit the nail on the head.

Q. How does this happen?
A. Jesus tells us. We must be born again of God by the Holy Spirit. That brings us to spiritual life so that we hear and believe the gospel.

Q. Can I do anything that will cause God to give me this new birth?
A. No one can do anything to cause God to do anything. Until he gives us this life, we are dead in sin.

Q. What about faith?
A. What about it? Faith in the person and work of Jesus is necessary for salvation. We are saved through it, but by grace, therefore when God gives us a new birth, we hear and believe (have faith in the person and work of Jesus). Salvation is by grace, faith is by grace.
 
Jesus is Lord over all creation. My King and Savior.
No one can say Jesus is LORD unless she is Born Again 😉

Doesn't this mean you were Born Again, just to be able to say it? 🤔

The New Birth goes before the Confession 😎
 
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No one can say Jesus is LORD unless she is Born Again 😉

Doesn't this mean you were Born Again, just to be able to say it? 🤔

The New Birth goes before the Confession 😎
Jesus is Lord is declaring that Jesus is God.

Unregenerate people can say the words, (e.g. Unitarians of whatever form) and not mean he is God. To say that Jesus is Lord , or confessing that he is the Son of God carries a tremendous amount of weight beyond the mere words. And no one can even know that he is God unless it has been revealed to him by God. And no one can gain that understanding with an unregenerate mind.
 
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