A Question for the Calvinist

[makesends]

Good point. False equivalence on my part.

 

[Eleanor]

Ah, but Christ came in the flesh, born under the Law to fulfill it and to condemn sin in the flesh. Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law

Christ fulfilling the law is not about "keeping" the law, but about fulfilling the purpose/goal/end of the law (his redemption and righteousness through faith in him).

 

[Ladodgers6]

Christ fulfilling the law is not about "keeping" the law, but about fulfilling the purpose/goal/end of the law (his redemption and righteousness through faith in him).

Eleanor, never-mind there is a reason why the Last Adam had to fulfill the broken Covenant of Works. That's for you to research and do your own homework.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Christ fulfilling the law is not about "keeping" the law, but about fulfilling the purpose/goal/end of the law (his redemption and righteousness through faith in him).

Please excuse my manners. Allow me to share with you, that the first Adam and His One Act disobedience brought condemnation & death upon all his progeny. And the Last Adam through His One Act of Obedience brought Justification & Life to all those who believe (Romans 5:12-21).

What is the Covenant of Works? The Covenant of Works, also known as the Covenant of Creation, is a theological concept that describes an agreement between God and Adam in which God promised eternal life to Adam and his descendants for perfect obedience to God's commands. Disobedience, specifically eating from the forbidden tree, would result in death. This covenant is foundational to understanding Reformed theology and the doctrine of salvation.​

By Adam breaching this Covenant brought, condemnation, death, punishment and this curse is solidarity falls upon us all. So, in essence this broken Covenant has to been fulfilled with perfect obedience to redeem us from its curse. This is why Christ has to fulfill the Law with works which is then imputed, credited to us through Faith Alone apart from any works, because we have no works worthy. But Christ's works are, and when received through Faith Alone we are declared righteous before God on account of Christ and His finished works.

 

[Eleanor]

Please excuse my manners. Allow me to share with you, that the first Adam and His One Act disobedience brought condemnation & death upon all his progeny. And the Last Adam through His One Act of Obedience brought Justification & Life to all those who believe (Romans 5:12-21).

Your manners are fine.
The one act of obedience was the cross, which paid the debt for those in Christ, remitting their sin (salvation), justifying them and imputing to them the righteousness of Christ (Ro 1:17, 3:21, 4:5).

What is the Covenant of Works? The Covenant of Works, also known as the Covenant of Creation, is a theological concept that describes an agreement between God and Adam in which God promised eternal life to Adam and his descendants for perfect obedience to God's commands. Disobedience, specifically eating from the forbidden tree, would result in death. This covenant is foundational to understanding Reformed theology and the doctrine of salvation.​

My theology goes by no other name than Biblical. . .I must see it presented in Scripture.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Your manners are fine.
The one act of obedience was the cross, which paid the debt for those in Christ, remitting their sin (salvation), justifying them and imputing to them the righteousness of Christ (Ro 1:17, 3:21, 4:5).

Do you know Imputation? If so, please explain it. Do you know the Active Obedience of Christ? The Passive Obedience of Christ upon the Cross dealt with PSA. And His Active Obedience deals with being declared righteous and justified. Which Paul does mention in those passages correct. Adam brought condemnation & death, Christ brought Justification & Life Paul says.

Romans 5:18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man’s obedience the many will be made righteous.

​

My theology goes by no other name than Biblical. . .I must see it presented in Scripture.

That's fine, but we must understand the eschatological redemptive history of the humiliation and consummation of Jesus Christ.

 

[Eleanor]

Do you know Imputation? If so, please explain it.
________________________________________________________________________

It is to reckon (Ro 4:6, 8, 11 22, 23, 24, 2 Co 5:19), to put down to a persons account, to credit/charge to one's account (Ro 5:13).
Adam's sin is imputed (charged) to us (Ro 5:17-19) and Christ's righteousness is imputed (charged to us) (Ro 5:18-19). . .
"But not having a righteousness of my own but. . .the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith? (Php3:9)
________________________________________________________________________

Do you know the [U[Active Obedience of Christ? The Passive Obedience of Christ upon the Cross dealt with PSA.

WHere do I find this distinction in Scripture?​

 

[Eleanor]

Do you know Imputation? If so, please explain it.
________________________________________________________________________

It is to reckon (Ro 4:6, 8, 11 22, 23, 24, 2 Co 5:19), to put down to a persons account, to credit/charge to one's account (Ro 5:13).
Adam's sin is imputed (charged) to us (Ro 5:17-19) and Christ's righteousness is imputed (charged to us) (Ro 5:18-19). . .
"But not having a righteousness of my own but. . .the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith? (Php3:9)
________________________________________________________________________

Do you know the [U[Active Obedience of Christ? The Passive Obedience of Christ upon the Cross dealt with PSA.

WHere do I find this distinction in Scripture?

 

[atpollard]

The statement rings true to me.... I would change it slightly to: "A" reason instead of "THE" reason.

Could a person on death row, facing execution, turn to the audience and claim "The/A reason that I am here is because the Governor did not pardon me!"

It is certainly true that the Governor had the power to grant a complete pardon and free him.
It is certainly true that the Governor CHOSE not to exercise that power and do so.
Was the Governor responsible for the people that he killed (his sins)?
Was the Governor obligated to pardon him? Was he owed a pardon?

 

[Eleanor]

(and I know there are plenty here)

Why can't a person facing Judgment say, "The reason I am being judged to eternal destruction is because you did not ordain/predestine me to eternal life?

The reason he is facing judgment is, for starters, because of his guilt of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17-19, 12-16), which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteousness of Christ.

God owes only justice to all men, he owes mercy to no one, and no one can say for any reason, "You owe mercy to me."

He is not unjust in not granting mercy to all, for mercy is owed to none.

 

[prism]

The reason he is facing judgment is, for starters, because of his guilt of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17-19, 12-16), which is the pattern (Ro 5:14) for the imputed righteousness of Christ.

God owes only justice to all men, he owes mercy to no one, and no one can say for any reason, "You owe mercy to me."

He is not unjust in not granting mercy to all, for mercy is owed to none.

I only add the accused saying, ""The reason I am being judged to eternal destruction is because you did not ordain/predestine me to eternal life?

Never did I mention the accused asking for mercy.

We are all imputed with Adam's sin, was that predestined, if so, why not predestinate all to eternal life instead of just some?

 

[atpollard]

why not predestinate all to eternal life instead of just some?

Paul said it was because ...

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? - [Rom 9:20-24 ESV]

Personally, I don't find it an answer that fills me with the "warm and fuzzies", but who am I to rebuke God for a "wrong answer".

 

[prism]

Paul said it was because ...

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory-- even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? - [Rom 9:20-24 ESV]

Personally, I don't find it an answer that fills me with the "warm and fuzzies", but who am I to rebuke God for a "wrong answer".

That's what it boils down to, and as I have said elsewhere, that is a sticking point that troubles me.

 

[fastfredy0]

Was the Governor responsible for the people that he killed (his sins)?
Was the Governor obligated to pardon him? Was he owed a pardon?

sounds like rhetorical questions ....haven't seen you around for awhile.

 

[Eleanor]

I only add the accused saying, ""The reason I am being judged to eternal destruction is because you did not ordain/predestine me to eternal life?

Never did I mention the accused asking for mercy.

We are all imputed with Adam's sin, was that predestined, if so, why not predestinate all to eternal life instead of just some?

Because the plan in place is the best means to the end of glorifying God through the glory of his Son.

 

[Eleanor]

That's what it boils down to, and as I have said elsewhere, that is a sticking point that troubles me.

That's where we have to decide who is God and who is not, who has the power and who does not, who decides what is right and who does not.

Hint: He's God, we're not., . .and he says:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways" declares the Lord.
"As the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."
(Isa 55:8-9)

It won't go well for those who object. . .ask Satan how it's working out for him.

 

[Eleanor]

I would also suggest taking your problem to him and asking him to give you understanding and love of him and his ways.

There is no running from him but by running to him.

 

[atpollard]

sounds like rhetorical questions ....haven't seen you around for awhile.

I was hiding (actually, I was taking a mental health break from Christian forums). Play by Post Roleplaying games attract a less contentious crowd.

Someone asked for recommendations for Christian Forums, so that reminded me that CCC existed.

 

[prism]

That's where we have to decide who is God and who is not, who has the power and who does not, who decides what is right and who does not.

Hint: He's God, we're not., . .and he says:

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways" declares the Lord.
"As the heavens are higher than the earth so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."
(Isa 55:8-9)

It won't go well for those who object. . .ask Satan how it's working out for him.

was just being honest.

 

[prism]

I would also suggest taking your problem to him and asking him to give you understanding and love of him and his ways.

There is no running from him but by running to him.

I suppose you have no sticking points?