What did John Wesley hold that Calvinist disagree with?

[makesends]

Most of that is wrong. It's also off topic. I'd suggest starting a new thread on the subject(s) but I'm still waiting on answers to posts in the "smoky dark thickness" thread.

Feel free to start it.

 

[Hobie]

A person who died having never heard of Christ and therefore destined to hell ... is that not a person "forced" to do so since he had no choice?



Premise 1: You did not choose to have a sin nature.
Premise 2: A sin nature leads one to disobey God
Conclusion: You are NOT FREE to choose. The game is fixed. Therefore, free will is not true.

No, because God is everywhere, and no one is not left without encountering Him. We hear all the time how someone in a desolate location or distant land or island is given a spiritual encounter or impressed by the Holy Spirit to seek what leads them to God or understanding of His truth. Each one, no matter where or what there background, is given a choice, to follow what is from God or to choose another path that leads to evil and destruction.

 

[fastfredy0]

Each one, no matter where or what there background, is given a choice, to follow what is from God or to choose another path that leads to evil and destruction.

This contradicts reality. Billions of people have died and never heard of Christ while they were alive. I grant that there's an EXTREMELY RARE person whom God visits directly, but that is VERY INFREQUENT and not relevant to my post that stated: A person who died having never heard of Christ and therefore destined to hell ... is that not a person "forced" to do so since he had no choice?

No, because God is everywhere, and no one is not left without encountering Him.

Everyone is "without excuse" per Romans 1, but general revelation of God does not lead to salvation. One is saved by trust in Christ and billions of people never heard of Christ and therefore have no choice for "faith cometh by hearing".

 

[makesends]

This contradicts reality. Billions of people have died and never heard of Christ while they were alive. I grant that there's an EXTREMELY RARE person whom God visits directly, but that is VERY INFREQUENT and not relevant to my post that stated: A person who died having never heard of Christ and therefore destined to hell ... is that not a person "forced" to do so since he had no choice?


Everyone is "without excuse" per Romans 1, but general revelation of God does not lead to salvation. One is saved by trust in Christ and billions of people never heard of Christ and therefore have no choice for "faith cometh by hearing".

I don't agree with @Hobie but there is a sense in which he is right. If they were without excuse, they did choose, at enmity with God. I'm not saying that logically it has to be that they could choose, but they did, and justice is done accordingly. The fact that they are without excuse nails it down. General revelation may not of itself lead to salvation, but if they were of the elect, it does, in some way or to some degree, lead to salvation, as does all the other factors leading to salvation. (And I am of the opinion that EVERYTHING affects everything else, particularly obvious, I think, in one person's life. It would take more than all the computers in the world to map out that cause-and-effect, but that axiom/principle has yet to be proven wrong.)

One thing I believe (without complete definition) that comes from the philosophical/theological Attribute of Immanence as I take it, that all fact is built of, comes from, or is made of something OF God, without comprising God (since he is infinite, if for no other reason) —that is, that Immanence doesn't only involve God permeating all substance, but in fact, that it is made of something of/from him, not just one and done, but that its very nature and existence is continually upheld by that means.

I say that, not to depart from the subject of the OP, but to show that whether they were conscious of it or not, God was right there the whole time, and their very existence (for which they are not thankful—Romans 1) should have made it plain that they depend on him for their very lives. The logic that pits their choice/responsibility against God's doing seems to me to assume a level of creaturely existence that does NOT depend in every way on God. Thus, to say that they are forced, as one person might force another to do or to not be able to do something, is not applicable to this fact. We are in no way God's equals.

 

[fastfredy0]

I don't agree with @Hobie but there is a sense in which he is right. If they were without excuse, they did choose, at enmity with God. I'm not saying that logically it has to be that they could choose, but they did, and justice is done accordingly.

Regarding my post that stated: A person who died having never heard of Christ and therefore destined to hell ... is that not a person "forced" to do so since he had no choice?
Premise 1: You did not choose to have a sin nature.
Premise 2: A sin nature leads one to disobey God
Conclusion: You are NOT FREE to choose. The game is fixed. Therefore, free will is not true.


I agree that in a sense everyone chooses, but in the context of my post I was considering the ability to choose to believe salvificly. In that sense, given I was talking about the billions that have died in the last 2000 years that never heard of Christ, they had no choice for a choice requires two of more things to choose from ... again, I spoke of choosing to believe salvifically and since the people I spoke of didn't have a knowledge of Christ they had no ability to choose

The fact that they are without excuse nails it down.

Agreed, they had no excuse in regard to being condemned. They have an excuse (attempt to lessen the blame) for not being saved as no one can choose to believe salvificly because it's 100% God doing the choosing. We're all hopeless in that regard as we can do nothing to be saved. He's the potter and we are the clay and the potter does as He wishes.

hat Immanence doesn't only involve God permeating all substance, but in fact, that it is made of something of/from him, not just one and done, but that its very nature and existence is continually upheld by that means.

Agreed ... I like the theory that God continually re-creates everything moment by moment.

The logic that pits their choice/responsibility against God's doing seems to me to assume a level of creaturely existence that does NOT depend in every way on God.

Well said.
If "choice" depends on the ability to do something outside of God's control, then man makes no choices.
.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
I don't agree with @Hobie but there is a sense in which he is right. If they were without excuse, they did choose, at enmity with God. I'm not saying that logically it has to be that they could choose, but they did, and justice is done accordingly.

Regarding my post that stated: A person who died having never heard of Christ and therefore destined to hell ... is that not a person "forced" to do so since he had no choice?
Premise 1: You did not choose to have a sin nature.
Premise 2: A sin nature leads one to disobey God
Conclusion: You are NOT FREE to choose. The game is fixed. Therefore, free will is not true.


I agree that in a sense everyone chooses, but in the context of my post I was considering the ability to choose to believe salvificly. In that sense, given I was talking about the billions that have died in the last 2000 years that never heard of Christ, they had no choice for a choice requires two of more things to choose from ... again, I spoke of choosing to believe salvifically and since the people I spoke of didn't have a knowledge of Christ they had no ability to choose

But here's the thing —your syllogism assumes a reality to the view that the one thing has bearing on the other. That we were 'endowed' with a sin nature has nothing to do with excusing anyone at all. We humans love it and choose it all day long. There is no game, in which we are players. The sin nature does not lead the sinner to disobey God—the sinner IS his sin nature, part and parcel. He IS a sinner. It is a mistake to say he makes sinful decisions, as though he himself is neutral—all his decisions and thoughts are sin, at enmity with God. THAT is why he cannot choose salvifically, not because the game is fixed. The only 'game' there is from a human presupposition that they are otherwise neutral.

 

[fastfredy0]

The sin nature does not lead the sinner to disobey God

I don't agree with this statement.

the sinner IS his sin nature, part and parcel.

true.... and the syllogism was to make the point that we do not have "free will" (the ability to act independent of God) as no one with the possible exception of Adam and Eve freely choose to have a "sin nature". The sin nature we all have is programming that causes us to be sinners though you disagree.

That we were 'endowed' with a sin nature has nothing to do with excusing anyone at all.

Well, I don't claim it's a total excuse where excuse is defined as "lessen the blame". By way of analogy, I would say a person with downs syndrome which he did not choose to have has an excuse for not doing well on his S.A.T.s. Similarly, a person with a sin nature which he did not choose to have has an excuse for being disobedient. Now, God determines what is just and though He determines all would have a sin nature, He justly condemned all He chooses to not have mercy upon. So, God agrees with you ... they have no excuse ... so your point is made.

It is a mistake to say he makes sinful decisions, as though he himself is neutral—all his decisions and thoughts are sin, at enmity with God. THAT is why he cannot choose salvifically, not because the game is fixed. The only 'game' there is from a human presupposition that they are otherwise neutral.

Agreed, except I say "the game is fixed" which is to say we can't change the outcome, God has picked the winners and losers.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
The sin nature does not lead the sinner to disobey God

I don't agree with this statement.

It was not a full statement to be considered alone apart from the rest of what I said.

makesends said:
the sinner IS his sin nature, part and parcel.

true.... and the syllogism was to make the point that we do not have "free will" (the ability to act independent of God) as no one with the possible exception of Adam and Eve freely choose to have a "sin nature". The sin nature we all have is programming that causes us to be sinners though you disagree.

The free will debate, it seems to me, is usually arguments from a human point of view. God's point of view has nothing to do with that, except to hold people's thoughts to public scrutiny on that day, that they should pretend to be the masters of their own destiny. The truth is not about "whether or not they can" but "what God is doing".

makesends said:
That we were 'endowed' with a sin nature has nothing to do with excusing anyone at all.

Well, I don't claim it's a total excuse where excuse is defined as "lessen the blame". By way of analogy, I would say a person with downs syndrome which he did not choose to have has an excuse for not doing well on his S.A.T.s. Similarly, a person with a sin nature which he did not choose to have has an excuse for being disobedient. Now, God determines what is just and though He determines all would have a sin nature, He justly condemned all He chooses to not have mercy upon. So, God agrees with you ... they have no excuse ... so your point is made.

Not doing well on your S.A.T. is not sin, though. It does not own the person with down syndrome. The sinner is not a master of his sin; nevertheless, he always chooses sinfully, because he is a slave to sin. He is identified with sin, which (I think) has something to do with why it says that Christ was made "to be sin for us".

makesends said:
It is a mistake to say he makes sinful decisions, as though he himself is neutral—all his decisions and thoughts are sin, at enmity with God. THAT is why he cannot choose salvifically, not because the game is fixed. The only 'game' there is from a human presupposition that they are otherwise neutral.

Agreed, except I say "the game is fixed" which is to say we can't change the outcome, God has picked the winners and losers.

My point isn't that they can (or can't) change the outcome —after all, they don't even want to. They just want to be able to. And God will hold them to that.

Lol, sorry for being difficult. I hate it when people do that to me. "Picky picky picky!"

 

[Paul]

The Spirit of truth bears witness to the world since Christ ascended and without such witness man wouldn't seek God for sure but if no one has the ability to believe in that truth unless God chooses them to then the powerful delusion that enters the world seems redundant and not needed. As in why the need as unbelievers are already condemned. Their cutoff by unbelief.

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

He stated -those who listen and learn from the Father come to Him as a fulfillment of "they shall all be taught by God". No one denies the need to be taught by God in order to come to Christ.

By the Spirit those in Christ may overcome the weaknesses and desires of the flesh commonly referred to as the sinful nature.

As is written, "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak"

I feel like I was chosen not prechosen. My parents steered me to Christ from my beginning and children tend to believe their parents. God responds to our faith.

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

 

[fastfredy0]

Lol, sorry for being difficult. I hate it when people do that to me. "Picky picky picky!"

Yeah, we tend to agree on most things so we debate "what the definition of 'is' is" (Bill Clinton)

 

[makesends]

The Spirit of truth bears witness to the world since Christ ascended and without such witness man wouldn't seek God for sure but if no one has the ability to believe in that truth unless God chooses them to then the powerful delusion that enters the world seems redundant and not needed. As in why the need as unbelievers are already condemned. Their cutoff by unbelief.

The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

He stated -those who listen and learn from the Father come to Him as a fulfillment of "they shall all be taught by God". No one denies the need to be taught by God in order to come to Christ.

By the Spirit those in Christ may overcome the weaknesses and desires of the flesh commonly referred to as the sinful nature.

As is written, "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak"

I feel like I was chosen not prechosen. My parents steered me to Christ from my beginning and children tend to believe their parents. God responds to our faith.

When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Was there some other pre-existent fact before God? Would anything have come to pass without him creating? Is God not omnipotent and omniscient? How then, can he cause anything to come to pass that he did not intend?

 

[Josheb]

I feel like I was chosen not prechosen. My parents steered me to Christ from my beginning and children tend to believe their parents.

Who steered your parents to steer you to Christ? Do you think all of that steering was caused by human flesh?

 

[Josheb]

He stated -those who listen and learn from the Father come to Him as a fulfillment of "they shall all be taught by God". No one denies the need to be taught by God in order to come to Christ.

Can you name one person in the Bible who listened without God already at work in that person for that purpose?

 

[Paul]

Can you name one person in the Bible who listened without God already at work in that person for that purpose?

God can choose to set aside some for His set purpose as bible stories illustrate. For example, the Apostle Paul was set aside from birth, but the world has a great many more people in it then those listed in the bible. The bible is to narrow a subset of people to state your point as law.

Listen is this context is to believe in the truth. Jesus testified to the truth. While all are born with the weakness and desires of the flesh no one starts out conceited. In fact, Jesus stated unless one turns and becomes like little children they wouldn't enter the kingdom of God. God gives grace to the humble.

Satan is the one who sows the weeds not God.

 

[Paul]

Who steered your parents to steer you to Christ? Do you think all of that steering was caused by human flesh?

Their faith in Christ as the only way to the Father.

 

[Paul]

Was there some other pre-existent fact before God? Would anything have come to pass without him creating? Is God not omnipotent and omniscient? How then, can he cause anything to come to pass that he did not intend?

You believe Gods intent is for the majority of all mankind to perish? I don't.

It's clear to me. God is love.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

[Josheb]

Can you name one person in the Bible who listened without God already at work in that person for that purpose?

God can choose to set aside some for His set purpose as bible stories illustrate. For example, the Apostle Paul was set aside from birth, but the world has a great many more people in it then those listed in the bible. The bible is to narrow a subset of people to state your point as law.

Listen is this context is to believe in the truth. Jesus testified to the truth. While all are born with the weakness and desires of the flesh no one starts out conceited. In fact, Jesus stated unless one turns and becomes like little children they wouldn't enter the kingdom of God. God gives grace to the humble.

Satan is the one who sows the weeds not God.

That does not answer the question asked. Paul would be an example of someone who listened because God had already been working in his life for that purpose. Paul was set aside at birth! Actually, he was set aside from eternity, knit together in his mother's womb, and appointed to the time and place of his existence prior to his birth . So were you. So was I.

Can you name one person in the Bible who listened to God without God already at work in that person for that purpose?

Who steered your parents to steer you to Christ? Do you think all of that steering was caused by human flesh?

Their faith in Christ as the only way to the Father.

Again, that is not an answer to the question asked. Did they steer themselves? Was it God who steered them? Someone else?

 

[makesends]

You believe Gods intent is for the majority of all mankind to perish? I don't.

It's clear to me. God is love.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead, he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

Do you have an explanation how the God whose love extends [apparently] equally in intent toward all humanity, would be unable to save them all? Here you have, by your arrangement of thought, the Omnipotent Omniscient, knowing ahead that what will result is many reprobates in Hell, yet proceeding to create anyway. How is that not intent?

But, if your meaning is that he did not equally create the reprobate for that purpose of everlasting torment, as he did the elect for eternity with him, you would be right. Their reprobation is not for that purpose alone.

Concerning the verse you quoted as though to support your thesis, (that God does not want anyone to perish), proper exegesis on 2 Peter 3:9 sees the context to be about the elect yet to be saved, and not about all humanity. You have isolated that verse from its context to use it that way.

 

[makesends]

Their faith in Christ as the only way to the Father.

That indeed demonstrates WHO, as @Josheb asked, steered your parents to steer you to Christ. That faith, if indeed they had saving faith, was given them by God himself. It was not of their own making, even if they thought it was of their own making. The same goes for your faith. God produces that faith inside you, by the Spirit of God.

 

[Josheb]

That indeed demonstrates WHO, as @Josheb asked, steered your parents to steer you to Christ. That faith, if indeed they had saving faith, was given them by God himself. It was not of their own making, even if they thought it was of their own making. The same goes for your faith. God produces that faith inside you, by the Spirit of God.