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A Question for the Arminian

Because he predestined according to his will

Whoever sees and believes

He predestined that they would be conformed to his image

Those who reject him in unbelief will not and they will remain condemned.
So here in Jn 6:37a ...
John 6:37 KJV
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

How can one see and believe, unless the Father first gives them to Jesus.?
 
So here in Jn 6:37a ...
John 6:37 KJV
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

How can one see and believe, unless the Father first gives them to Jesus.?
A dead man walking cannot see and believe, they are at enmity to the Lord.

But the Arminian believes they can see and believe on their own accord.

That is not Biblical.
 
So here in Jn 6:37a ...
John 6:37 KJV
All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

How can one see and believe, unless the Father first gives them to Jesus.?
keep on reading

John 6: 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

the two go hand in hand, who has the father given Jesus. Those who see and believe.

How can one see and believe? Because God shows himself to them. and we see in this very chapter. even the disciples. who did not understand yet. understood.

what gives life (eternal) the words. in Peters words

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Also in John 5:

24 ;“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life

who has passed from death to life (regeneration) but he who sees and believes
 
A dead man walking cannot see and believe, they are at enmity to the Lord.

But the Arminian believes they can see and believe on their own accord.

That is not Biblical.
if they can not see and believe. they can not be justified

if they can not be justified. They will continue to be lost. dead in sin

God empowers them some how.. They do not come up with their faith by themselves.. As John said in john 1: 13 not by the will of the flesh

but God did something in them that granted them the ability to repent
 
if they can not see and believe. they can not be justified

if they can not be justified. They will continue to be lost. dead in sin

God empowers them some how.. They do not come up with their faith by themselves.. As John said in john 1: 13 not by the will of the flesh

but God did something in them that granted them the ability to repent
The Lord God draws them to receive Christ, the Holy Spirit regenerates them, only then do they see and can believe, there is no faith without being regenerated (born-again).

Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that the purpose of God according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

The sinner is saved by the work of God, he is elected to salvation before the foundations of the world. God did not look down the corridors of time to see who would believe, He chose the elect (believers) not based on anything they did.

The Lord does as He pleases, with whom He pleases.
 
The Lord God draws them to receive Christ, the Holy Spirit regenerates them, only then do they see and can believe, there is no faith without being regenerated (born-again).
Then by practice you have people born again in sin.


Romans 9:11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that the purpose of God according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,
this is concerning God's choosing the nation of Israel. Not the salvation or condemnation of 2 babies not yet born.

there is no evidence Esau was not saved. if anything, jacob was the more evil child..


The sinner is saved by the work of God,

amen, 100%
he is elected to salvation before the foundations of the world.
Amen again 100 % But on what grounds was he elected?
God did not look down the corridors of time to see who would believe
says who? Show this in scripture
He chose the elect (believers) not based on anything they did.
Yet his will was whoever saw and believe would not come to judgement but pass from death to life.

is not regeneration passing from death to life?
The Lord does as He pleases, with whom He pleases.
Yes he does

And it does not please the lord in the death of the wicked.. so he pleads for them to turn from their sin and life

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

why would God plead (turn turn) them to turn from their wicked ways, repent. and live, if they had no abolity.

why would he tell them he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. then say he condemned one baby to hell before he was even born?

this makes no sense
 
Then by practice you have people born again in sin.



this is concerning God's choosing the nation of Israel. Not the salvation or condemnation of 2 babies not yet born.

there is no evidence Esau was not saved. if anything, jacob was the more evil child..




amen, 100%

Amen again 100 % But on what grounds was he elected?

says who? Show this in scripture

Yet his will was whoever saw and believe would not come to judgement but pass from death to life.

is not regeneration passing from death to life?

Yes he does

And it does not please the lord in the death of the wicked.. so he pleads for them to turn from their sin and life

Ezekiel 18:23
Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?” says the Lord God, “and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them: As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?’

why would God plead (turn turn) them to turn from their wicked ways, repent. and live, if they had no abolity.

why would he tell them he has no pleasure in the death of the wicked. then say he condemned one baby to hell before he was even born?

this makes no sense
Then by practice you have people born again in sin.
Please clarify.

When Holy Spirit regenerates, 1 second I am a sinner and the next I am imputed righteousness.

this is concerning God's choosing the nation of Israel. Not the salvation or condemnation of 2 babies not yet born.
This is salvation.

there is no evidence Esau was not saved. if anything, jacob was the more evil child..
The focus is on the Lord's sovereign choice of the two.

says who? Show this in scripture
See Romans 9:11.

Yet his will was whoever saw and believe would not come to judgement but pass from death to life.
Where is this stated in Scripture. Those who believe this take sovereignty away form God.

What you are implying is that humans are sovereign over their salvation, this is not Biblical.

why would God plead (turn turn) them to turn from their wicked ways, repent. and live, if they had no abolity.
You answered your own question here (God plead (turn turn) them to turn from their wicked way).

God turned them, they did not do it on their own ability, because they cannot.

God's written word still calls sinners to repent and believe in Christ, not because they have the ability to do so in their sinful state, but because God's grace, through Holy Spirit regenerates them to do so.
 
I may be out of my league asking this, but I see this as a crucial matter.

"If Christ died for all, why did he predestinate only some to salvation?
The synergist will say it is because He knows who will believe and who will not.

It is critically important to understand monergists and synergists define "predestination" in two different ways. In monergism God assigned a destiny to each individual "from eternity," or prior to and without regard to events that transpired once creation was created. Synergists, on the other hand, define predestination categorically, not individually. In synergism predestination means that God has a destiny for unbelievers and a destiny for non-believers regardless of who those people might be. A non-believing person's destiny is hell unless and until he chooses to believe and that choice - the change from disbelieving God to believing God - that choice to believe is what moves him/her from the category of those (pre-)destined to hell over to the category of those (pre-)destined to eternal life.

Provisionist Leighton Flowers expresses it this way:

".....God foreknows in the sense that the elect one, who is Christ, he foreknows all those who would be in Christ by faith. In other words, they freely believe. In other words, it is their choice to believe or not believe, but God foreknows what will become of all who do believe, whether Jew or Gentile. And so, this concept of foreknowledge is a concept of God foreknowing and even pre-planning, in a sense what will come of whosoever is in Christ freely. In other words, they still have a free decision whether to be in Christ or not to be in Christ, but God has fore-ordained, or preplanned, based on His foreknowledge what will come of all who do believe in him freely." (time mark 6.35 in the video)​


(I typed that as I was listening to it and didn't go back to check so I might have gotten a word or two out of order. Link and timestamp provided so everyone can hear him for themselves.)

It is worth noting Arminius would agree with the categorical definition of what Flowers calls "corporate" destiny but disagree with Flower's view of free belief. I point this out because the op specifies Arminianism, not any other synergism. This is kinda sorta important because 1) Arminianism is not as volitional as the other synergisms and 2) Christians often confuse or conflate all synergisms together as if they are synonymous when that is not true. Flowers is a radical volitionalist, a Pelagian, even though he vigorously argues against that appraisal.

The point is that Arms (and other synergists) define predestination differently. That means until the word is explicitly defined synergists and monergists are talking past each. They are debating a false equivalence. As long as the Calvinist is defining and defending monergistic predestination (God assigned the destiny of every individual without regard to the events within creation or the faculties or qualities of the individual) s/he has said absolutely nothing about Arminianism's predestination. The same works in reverse. As long as the Arm is speaking using an Arm view of predestination, s/he has said absolutely nothing about the monergistic viewpoint. It is only when the two groups, the monergists and the synergists, identify one of the two definitions as the specific subject of discussion that a cogent and coherent conversation can be had.
"If Christ died for all, why did he predestinate only some to salvation?
Do you mean the Arminian definition of "predestinate," or the Calvinist definition of "predestinate"? :unsure:

If Christ died for all, why did he assign each individual a salvific destiny prior to their existence without regard to their character or the events of their life?
If Christ died for all, why did he assign them to a category of events that will happen to them after they have freely chosen to believe in him and become saved?

Those are two completely different and completely irreconcilable inquiries. So which question is the op asking to be answered? ;) The Arminian/synergist answer to the first question is, "He did not such thing. That's a wrong definition of predestination so the question is a red herring." The Calvinist/monergist answer to the first question is, "God has not answered that question other than to say it is because of His will and His purpose and not the will or works of the individual being saved and predestined to eternal life." Similarly, the Arminian/synergist answer to the second question is, "Christ died for all but the benefits of his death are obtained by faith, so it is only those who freely believe in Jesus that obtain the destiny of all those who believe." The Calvinist/monergist will answer that question with, "That is a wrong definition of predestination because people dead and enslaved by sin are not free to believe. The question is a red herring."

That being said, there is some common ground between Arminianism and Calvinism and some common ground between all synergisms and all monergisms. The common ground between classic Reformed Arminianism and Calvinism is that of total depravity. Arminius would have disagreed with Flowers and said no sinner is free to believe salvifically unless and until God has freed him or her to do so. Leighton rejects that position and says God made every human with the ability to believe and sin has not compromised or corrupted that faculty to the point of impotence. Monergism and synergism, likewise, agree the work of Christ's incarnation, death, and resurrection are sufficient to save everyone but that work is effective or efficient only in the lives of those who (salvifically) believe. Each group parts ways with the other over the matter of belief because in Flowersism belief is a freely existing faculty of the sinner and in monergism belief is proactively gifted to the sinner specifically for the purpose of effecting his or her salvation following his/her regeneration.



One last note: If anyone bothers to listen to the videos over at Soteriology 101 (or any of the other prominent sources for the various synergisms (CCEL has the works of both Arminius and Wesley) and pays attention to it you will find what I have recently said about synergist exegesis to be true: They invariably mishandle scripture in many ways. Chief among the mishandling is the practice of taking verses written about the already saved and regenerate believer and acting as if they apply to the unsaved, unregenerate non-believer. Those two groups of people are ontologically different (flowers rejects that premise). They also neglect the always inherent and inescapable context of the covenant relationship. This appears to happen unawares, btw.
 
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Please clarify.

When Holy Spirit regenerates, 1 second I am a sinner and the next I am imputed righteousness.

the wage of sin is death, it is the means of our condemnation (rom 6: 23)
He who does not believe is condemned already (remain in a condemned state) John 3: 18

so until one is in a state of faith. they are still dead in sin, because they are still in a condemned state
This is salvation.
No. Paul was answering the question. Did God make a mistake chosing Israel.

it is not about anyones salvation,

it is about the fact God chose Israel not based on birthright. or human reasoning. the first born was not given the birthright, God chose to give it to Jacob, the second born. and chose to do this before they were even born
The focus is on the Lord's sovereign choice of the two.
But it is not the context of the passage.

I believe in Gods sovereignty. I also believe in Gods love.. They can intertwine perfectly and not cancel each other out.
See Romans 9:11.
11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

show me the wor4d salvation in this verse.

Shoe me where God condemned 1 baby to hell before he was even born (how are we even having this discussion)
Where is this stated in Scripture. Those who believe this take sovereignty away form God.
who said it takes soverignty away from God?

Does not Gods soverignty depend on Gods will?


What you are implying is that humans are sovereign over their salvation, this is not Biblical.
No, I am not implying this at all..
You answered your own question here (God plead (turn turn) them to turn from their wicked way).

God turned them, they did not do it on their own ability, because they cannot.
please show where God turned them, and show why God would beg them to turn, if they had no capacity to turn
God's written word still calls sinners to repent and believe in Christ, not because they have the ability to do so in their sinful state, but because God's grace, through Holy Spirit regenerates them to do so.
the first part of your comment, and the last part of your comment, seem to be at odds.

why would God call. if they were going to do it no matter what?
 
I may be out of my league asking this, but I see this as a crucial matter.

"If Christ died for all, why did he predestinate only some to salvation?
He died for all (Jew and Gentile, not just Jew) elect.
 
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Then by practice you have people born again in sin.
Eph 2 tells us that God brings his own to life while they are in their sins. So to say that faith is what brings us to life and removes our sins and that then is when God regenerates us, because we have already been cleansed by our faith as a first cause and God as a second cause, is to say that we have to be cleansed before God will have us as his children. If that were true, no one would be saved. If God did not bring us to spiritual life (regeneration) while we were in our sins, no one would be saved.
 
Puts on Arminian hat:

God predestined only those whom he knew would choose him.

Puts on Calvinist hat:

A better question might be: Why did Christ die for those he knew would perish in unbelief?
Being what many would call Hyper-C, at least in this subject, I would ask it this way, "Why would Christ die for those whom he had planned to perish in unbelief." It points out the ludicrous-ness of the notion.
 
Then by practice you have people born again in sin.
You keep bringing up this objection to what happens in Irresistible Grace, that God regenerates people through no action or effort of faith of their own. We keep trying to show you that the regeneration is logically before —that it is time-irrelevant. They are not IN SIN when God regenerates them. They are no longer the dead-in-sin that they were, nor becoming born again. They ARE born again. Reading Scripture's references to this subject, I keep seeing the Greek employing the Aorist tense, and the Perfect, for completed action, once done it is done, not-a-process.

Can somebody else please say this for EG better than I can? He's not getting it. He keeps centering the fact of regeneration and faith and salvation on the creature and not on the Creator.
 
the wage of sin is death, it is the means of our condemnation (rom 6: 23)
He who does not believe is condemned already (remain in a condemned state) John 3: 18

so until one is in a state of faith. they are still dead in sin, because they are still in a condemned state

No. Paul was answering the question. Did God make a mistake chosing Israel.

it is not about anyones salvation,

it is about the fact God chose Israel not based on birthright. or human reasoning. the first born was not given the birthright, God chose to give it to Jacob, the second born. and chose to do this before they were even born

But it is not the context of the passage.

I believe in Gods sovereignty. I also believe in Gods love.. They can intertwine perfectly and not cancel each other out.

11 (for the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls),

show me the wor4d salvation in this verse.

Shoe me where God condemned 1 baby to hell before he was even born (how are we even having this discussion)

who said it takes soverignty away from God?

Does not Gods soverignty depend on Gods will?



No, I am not implying this at all..

please show where God turned them, and show why God would beg them to turn, if they had no capacity to turn

the first part of your comment, and the last part of your comment, seem to be at odds.

why would God call. if they were going to do it no matter what?
This has been shown repeatedly in other threads.

Many will say Romans 9 is not about salvation, but what is stated in the verses is exactly how salvation works.

The Arminian will not believe this, they are blinded for some reason to this truth.
 
You keep bringing up this objection to what happens in Irresistible Grace, that God regenerates people through no action or effort of faith of their own.
I bring up an objection that this happens..
We keep trying to show you that the regeneration is logically before —that it is time-irrelevant.
Yes, according to your logic. it is true

But I see no logic in this at all. and have been trying to show you why.
They are not IN SIN when God regenerates them.
If they have not yet believed THEY ARE IN SIN.

Jesus said they are still condemned

that means their condemnation has not yet been removed..


They are no longer the dead-in-sin that they were, nor becoming born again. They ARE born again. Reading Scripture's references to this subject, I keep seeing the Greek employing the Aorist tense, and the Perfect, for completed action, once done it is done, not-a-process.
How is one born again.

again read John 3: 10 - 18
Can somebody else please say this for EG better than I can? He's not getting it. He keeps centering the fact of regeneration and faith and salvation on the creature and not on the Creator.
Can I honestly ask you a question.

You say I am not getting it as if it is a fact.

Can it not be I am not getting it because it makes no sense

and can it be. that maybe i am not getting it because it is not found in the word of God?

can It not be that I am not getting it. because I see something totally different?

why do people have to talk down to others as if your truth is truth, and theirs is not?

Its an honest question
 
This has been shown repeatedly in other threads.
then we will agree to disagree.

because I see nothing that wo9uld lead me to believe what you show
Many will say Romans 9 is not about salvation, but what is stated in the verses is exactly how salvation works.
No it is not.

That is the fatalistic view of romans 9. Romans 9 is about God choosing Israel and answering the questions that were being asked at the trime.

God did not condemn a baby to hell before he was born..
The Arminian will not believe this, they are blinded for some reason to this truth.
I am not an arminian.

so not sure why this is even a comment..
 
then we will agree to disagree.

because I see nothing that wo9uld lead me to believe what you show

No it is not.

That is the fatalistic view of romans 9. Romans 9 is about God choosing Israel and answering the questions that were being asked at the trime.

God did not condemn a baby to hell before he was born..

I am not an arminian.

so not sure why this is even a comment..
I am not an arminian.

so not sure why this is even a comment..

Please notice my comment was not directed at you personally.

I said, "the Arminian".

I did not say Eternally-Grateful is an Arminian.
 
I strayed from the topic.

"If Christ died for all, why did he predestinate only some to salvation?

Apologies
 
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