A Question for the Calvinist

[Eleanor]

Thank you. But we need works to be justified before God.​

No, we need righteousness to be justified (declared not guilty, sinless), which righteousness can be merited with perfect works, if we could do them, which we cannot.

Being unable to merit righteousness because of our fallen nature, righteousness from God must be reckoned/accounted/imputed to us through faith (Ro 1:17).

Since we cannot do it ourselves because we have fallen in the first Adam, and condemned because of His acts of disobedience. We are saved by the works/obedience of the Second Adam. So, in essence Eleanor we are saved by Christ's works.​

Being without the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17-19), Christ was born righteous. He maintained that righteousness by never being disobedient.

Without the Law-keeping of Christ nobody would be saved.​

Christ was not made righteous by law-keeping. The Son of God, Christ, was born righteous, without the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17-19) and maintained that righteousness by fulflling all righteosness (Mt 3:15).

And nobody can enter heaven without perfect obedience.​

Only the righteous enter heaven. . .sinners enter heaven by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them (Ro 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, Php 3:9) through faith (Eph 2:8-9).

So, what I was saying before, is that the synergistic theologies among others (Pelagian/Semi-Pelagians); any works based systems that place this endeavor on fallen humanity either forgot, don't see, don't understand or blatantly disregard Scripture that fallen man/women cannot fulfill the Law with perfect obedience that it demands because we are cursed under the Law to keep it; we cannot.

But perfect obedience is still demanded/commanded by God to enter heaven.​

Righteousness is demanded to enter heaven, and the inherent righteousness of Christ born without sin and the sinful nature, which righteousness he maintained by not being disobedient, but always perfectly obedient, is imputed to those in Christ.

 

[makesends]

No, we need righteousness to be justified (declared not guilty, sinless), which righteousness can be merited with perfect works, if we could do them, which we cannot.

Being unable to merit righteousness because of our fallen nature, righteousness from God must be reckoned/accounted/imputed to us through faith (Ro 1:17).

A thought came to me, reading that last line. Here we are, all day every day, encumbered or imposed upon by our "old man" fallen nature, still there. WE have a dual nature! Why should it be impossible with Christ to have a dual nature? Certainly it is not the same as ours, as he was without sin, but why the reticence and even antagonism the anti-Trinitarians show?

Being without the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17-19), Christ was born righteous. He maintained that righteousness by never being disobedient.

Christ was not made righteous by law-keeping. The Son of God, Christ, was born righteous, without the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17-19) and maintained that righteousness by fulflling all righteosness (Mt 3:15).

Only the righteous enter heaven. . .sinners enter heaven by the righteousness of Christ imputed to them (Ro 1:17, 3:21, 4:5, Php 3:9) through faith (Eph 2:8-9).

Righteousness is demanded to enter heaven, and the inherent righteousness of Christ born without sin and the sinful nature, which righteousness he maintained by not being disobedient, but always perfectly obedient, is imputed to those in Christ.

AMEN!

 

[Ladodgers6]

Mostly true, but I would be careful about saying that everything Christ possesses becomes ours. There are things which are true of Christ, but not of the saved sinner. For instance, He possesses equality with His heavenly Father, and we don't.

Thanks David who bringing this up. Very crucial to discern, I am not saying the sinner will be equal with the Father. I am speaking about redemption by Christ through Faith Alone, in that, that Christ has accomplished everything for God's people. I am talking about Perfect Law-Keeping that is demanded by God in His Law to enter heaven. I do not think I made any reference or inference to us being equal with the Father. But to make things clear here, I will provide Scripture to what I have been saying.
​

Ephesians 1

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known "Or he lavished upon us in all wisdom and insight, making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.

11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.​

 

[Ladodgers6]

No, we need righteousness to be justified (declared not guilty, sinless), which righteousness can be merited with perfect works, if we could do them, which we cannot.

What is Righteousness? Please explain in detail.

 

[Ladodgers6]

For the record when I say we need works to be justified. I am speaking about the physical works of Christ's Law Keeping, that is imputed or credited to believing sinners. These works are not fiction but actual works of Christ. This is called in Reformed circles of the Active Obedience of Christ.

To say that a sinner is not justified by the merits of Christ is RCC, and any other synergistic Pelagian position.

 

[miss managed]

For the record when I say we need works to be justified. I am speaking about the physical works of Christ's Law Keeping, that is imputed or credited to believing sinners. These works are not fiction but actual works of Christ. This is called in Reformed circles of the Active Obedience of Christ.

To say that a sinner is not justified by the merits of Christ is RCC, and any other synergistic Pelagian position.

Works is the evidence
Faith is our part.
Grace is God's part in Jesus.

 

[Carbon]

To say that a sinner is not justified by the merits of Christ is RCC, and any other synergistic Pelagian position.

Amen!

 

[miss managed]

For the record when I say we need works to be justified. I am speaking about the physical works of Christ's Law Keeping, that is imputed or credited to believing sinners. These works are not fiction but actual works of Christ. This is called in Reformed circles of the Active Obedience of Christ.

To say that a sinner is not justified by the merits of Christ is RCC, and any other synergistic Pelagian position.

The RCC has changed its tune on that one.

 

[Carbon]

Works is the evidence
Faith is our part.
Grace is God's part in Jesus.

Would you explain what you mean exactly? Thanks

 

[Carbon]

The RCC has changed its tune on that one.

Since when?

 

[miss managed]

Since when?

I know many Catholics. I was brought up one. Wandering Souls is a Catholic band, but we play anything. We DON'T play any 'Christian' music. Like Ozzie's Wizzard!

Here is Catholic Answers...

But the Catholic Church does not teach that we receive initial justification by good works. You do not have to do good works in order to come to God and be justified.

 

[Carbon]

I know many Catholics. I was brought up one. Wandering Souls is a Catholic band, but we play anything. We DON'T play any 'Christian' music. Like Ozzie's Wizzard!

Here is Catholic Answers...

But the Catholic Church does not teach that we receive initial justification by good works. You do not have to do good works in order to come to God and be justified.

I was raised Roman Catholic myself. My mother remained a RC, so I studied the religion after leaving that church. I suggest reading carefully the Catholic doctrines if you want to learn them.
Catholicism denies that anyone is saved by faith alone. You will also have to keep yourself saved if you're a Catholic.

 

[Carbon]

My mother remained a RC, so I studied the religion after leaving that church.

Well, that's not the main reason I studied Catholicism.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Works is the evidence
Faith is our part.
Grace is God's part in Jesus.

Yes, works are the fruits, signs of a believer. A true believer doesn't have a dead faith, but a living Faith. Faith is a gift from God. Once we receive the gift of faith we hear, understand, trust in God. And yes Grace is all of God in Christ through the workings of the Triune Trinity to redeem God's people form their sins.​

 

[Carbon]

Yes, works are the fruits, signs of a believer. A true believer doesn't have a dead faith, but a living Faith. Faith is a gift from God. Once we receive the gift of faith we hear, understand, trust in God. And yes Grace is all of God in Christ through the workings of the Triune Trinity to redeem God's people form their sins.​

Amen brother!

 

[Ladodgers6]

The RCC has changed its tune on that one.

I beg to differ. RCC teaches that Christ is not solely sufficient to redeem sinners. Its Christ plus our works that are sufficient to save.

 

[miss managed]

Yes, works are the fruits, signs of a believer. A true believer doesn't have a dead faith, but a living Faith. Faith is a gift from God. Once we receive the gift of faith we hear, understand, trust in God. And yes Grace is all of God in Christ through the workings of the Triune Trinity to redeem God's people form their sins.​

AH - You need a Trinity to Redeem God's people from their sins...

I knew there was a reason only 16% of Christians believe in Trinity.

 

[Carbon]

AH - You need a Trinity to Redeem God's people from their sins...

I knew there was a reason only 16% of Christians believe in Trinity.

Sadly, some dont believe in the Trinity. Scripture does a great job teaching it, but some deny it.

 

[miss managed]

I beg to differ. RCC teaches that Christ is not solely sufficient to redeem sinners. Its Christ plus our works that are sufficient to save.

But the Catholic Church does not teach that we receive initial justification by good works. You do not have to do good works in order to come to God and be justified.

The Council of Trent states: “We are said to be justified by grace because nothing that precedes justification, whether faith or works, merits the grace of justification. For ‘if it is by grace, it is no longer by works; otherwise,’ as the apostle says, ‘grace is no more grace’ [Rom. 11:6]” (Decree on Justification 8).

 

[miss managed]

Sadly, some dont believe in the Trinity. Scripture does a great job teaching it, but some deny it.

Your buddies - the high-powered Trinitarians will tell you that Trinity is NOT explicit but implicit. You put it together by fabricating things from here and there.