Young Earth/Old Earth

[TB2]

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And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."​

Philippians 1:9​

To understand what I spoke of requires securing knowledge to gain the insight.

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And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more and more in knowledge and depth of insight."​

Insights are never spelled out in black and white in Scripture. Its something you must build and construct with knowledge.

I will give you hidden treasures,
riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the Lord,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name."

Isaiah 45:3​

Isaiah is telling us...

Its insights that makes us realize we are not playing some game with religion like men do.
That salvation and eternity are real, and we are being made able to know we are to be a partaker
in a life that others can not know is real!


Keep in mind. John 1:1 tells us that the Word is God, and that Jesus became the Word made flesh.
And, God has given us His Word in writing ....

That their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, and attaining ​

to all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the knowledge of the mystery ​

of God, both of the Father and of Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of ​

wisdom and knowledge." Col 2:2-3​

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Its what is hidden below the surface that is to be dug out (by God's grace) located through studying and learning sound doctrine....

"Buried Treasures" = Insight gifts from God.


grace and peace

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I agree that in Christ are hidden all treasures of wisdom and knowledge, but I don't think that includes information about prehistoric times

 

[Inertia]

No human death

It is possible for there to be death of animals (and certainly plants) before the fall

Indeed. Keyword "human"

How did the venus flytrap survive if there was no death?
How did the vegetable cells survive after Adam and Eve at them?
Why didn't Adam ask God about the new consequence of death when warned about it by God?

______
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[David1701]

But you said, Satan tempted Eve after day six.

I notice this concept, satan sinned on day six or after day six is mainly by young earthers. It would be pretty smart if they could prove it.

I also noticed that outside of this debate, most think satan sinned in eternity past.

Either is an argument from silence.

Satan, since he is a created being, was created on one of the six day of the creation week.

Those whom you call "young earthers" simply believe what the Bible says, the others don't.

 

[David1701]

I'm not sure why you would say this. It'nt that obvious?

But what is not obvious is that God created Satan on day six.

I didn't say that God created Satan on Day Six. Stop putting words in my mouth.

 

[Carbon]

Satan, since he is a created being, was created on one of the six day of the creation week.

Those whom you call "young earthers" simply believe what the Bible says, the others don't.

So, there was a day when God created the plants, animals, and humans, and it's just assumed He created Angels on day 6. Okay, I have nothing more to say for now. Thanks.

 

[David1701]

Thanks! I knew there was a verse to that effect but couldn't remember where. The consumption of meat is not expressly prohibited (and Psalms 104 which heavily alludes to the creation week speaks of God providing food for predators), but yes, you do have a point with this verse.

The whole death thing is tricky, because there obviously still is death... of plants... and bacteria with Adam's every step and (are we to assume no insects were ever killed too). There are just so many things that don't make sense (predators already created with fangs for ripping flesh and so on which is not a problem in light of Psalms 104 which depicts God providing for predators).

But what does seem clear is that animals and humans are created mortal ("from dust and to dust you will return"; "out of the ground God formed every beast and every bird..."). What seems clear is that Adam and Eve require God's life's sustaining presence in the garden of Eden to stay alive; suggesting that anything outside of the garden eventually dies

In Psalm 104, there are parts about creation, parts about the flood, parts about the situation that was current when it was written (the current parts include the lions...). I'm sorry, but you don't have a point here.

Why is there "obviously" death of plants? Do apple trees die, when you pluck their fruit? Does wheat die, when you harvest the grain? No, of course not.

In any case, the lack of death is about no death in humans, or animals with a soul.

People often assume that things like sharp teeth mean that they were carnivores; but, even nowadays, this is often not the case. Bears, for example, mainly eat berries, grass, etc. (although, nowadays, they eat meat as well).

From dust you are and to dust you will return is AFTER THE FALL!

Honestly, you are going to have to do much, much better than this.

 

[David1701]

So, there was a day when God created the plants, animals, and humans, and it's just assumed He created Angels on day 6. Okay, I have nothing more to say for now. Thanks.

I did not assume that God created angels on day six. I have never said such a thing and I want to retract your false accusation publicly. I'm getting sick of this behaviour.

 

[Carbon]

I did not assume that God created angels on day six. I have never said such a thing and I want to retract your false accusation publicly. I'm getting sick of this behaviour.

David, I didn't say you said that, to me, it seems assumed as such. If there was a place I said you said something that you did not, I apologize. I surely did not mean to say such things.

 

[David1701]

I understand, and that is an issue I have not resolved about the doctrine of creation. For ex., Heb 11 says it was created out of nothing.

But 2 Peter 3 has a contrast between the universe being 'ekpalai' (to have existed for a long time) and the earth being 'sunestosa' (to be formed as pottery, implying more recently). Actually both of 2 Peter 3's verbs might not match up with Heb 11, by forcing us to stay "local" in Gen 1 (where local = this solar system only, contrasting locations like 2P3). But 'sunestosa' would at least match Gen 1:2 if the verb tense is 'already there.' For Peter says it was made out of water and through water.

When speaking of the new covenant, do you find that nothing existed beforehand in Jeremiah? Isn't the difference that the Spirit would make people know the Law in their hearts? I'm just comparing 'out of nothing.'

I don't know why (as TB said was one of the issues) 1:2 would exist at all if it wasn't meant to be there before the acts of creation week.

Also, the degenerated parts of Persian, Hindi and Egyptian creation myths were corrected by doing so. The unformed was not there because evil is dualistically equal to the Creator. (See Lewis on degenerated myths in "The Myth That Became Fact" in GOD IN THE DOCK. Also see P. James-Griffith "Tracing Genesis Through Ancient Culture." On Youtube. He's a Scot! The key remark might be late in the talk, when he shows how world myths had to have fragmented from Genesis, not combined into become Genesis.)

I think the former U Toronto psychiatrist J. Peterson once discussed Gen 1 and said that the reason why there is a redeemed structure to the whole (a chaotic place is organized and made useful) is God's imprint on humankind. We naturally try to do this in everything in life--unless we are Marxists!

Waltke's book on these issues was called CREATION AND CHAOS. The 4 narratives he deals with started with a state of chaos, not non-existence.

Gen. 1:2 shows what the Earth was like, immediately after God had created it, but before he had formed it into its intended final condition. Problem solved.

J. Peterson is very intelligent man, who, unfortunately, cannot seem to believe something simple for what it says. His apparent need for intellectual stimulus appears to have him creating convoluted complexity where none exists.

Nothing can exist, unless God has created it. We don't start with an unformed mess; we start with God.

 

[David1701]

David, I didn't say you said that, to me, it seems assumed as such. If there was a place I said you said something that you did not, I apologize. I surely did not mean to say such things.

I forgive you; but, please stop reading things into what I write, if I have not stated them. If you want to know if I'm assuming, or implying something, then you can ask me.

 

[Carbon]

I forgive you; but, please stop reading things into what I write, if I have not stated them. If you want to know if I'm assuming, or implying something, then you can ask me.

Fair enough. Thanks, brother

 

[TB2]

From dust you are and to dust you will return is AFTER THE FALL!

They were formed from dust from the beginning. Even Paul notes this in 1 Cor 15 in reference to the mortality of the natural perishable body. The point is they required God's life sustaining presence/Tree of Life. Hence expelled from garden.

Honestly, you are going to have to do much, much better than this.

Not really. Not trying to win an argument. Just discussing

 

[EarlyActs]

GeneZ:
that the prehistoric creation was to be under the dominion of angels

Please support this. The only thing I can think of is an implication from the line in Heb 2 that 'it was not to angels that he subjected the world to come'; the implication would be that God once planned to do that with earth, it failed; so he tried with mankind, failed; so he finally had to do so himself and pay for the failure of the past, in the Son. And that will be the NHNE.

Gen. 1:2 shows what the Earth was like, immediately after God had created it, but before he had formed it into its intended final condition. Problem solved.

J. Peterson is very intelligent man, who, unfortunately, cannot seem to believe something simple for what it says. His apparent need for intellectual stimulus appears to have him creating convoluted complexity where none exists.

Nothing can exist, unless God has created it. We don't start with an unformed mess; we start with God.

 

[EarlyActs]

Gen. 1:2 shows what the Earth was like, immediately after God had created it, but before he had formed it into its intended final condition. Problem solved.

J. Peterson is very intelligent man, who, unfortunately, cannot seem to believe something simple for what it says. His apparent need for intellectual stimulus appears to have him creating convoluted complexity where none exists.

Nothing can exist, unless God has created it. We don't start with an unformed mess; we start with God.

I would say the problem to be solved was solved by Creation week. I don't know what the matter is. The language says what Jeremiah used for a destroyed city. That makes the unit of Gen 1--11 have a fascinating paradox: that mankind builds what God had destroyed. The OT carries this theme a lot; that people are worse for trying to create a 'city.' God gave them the best place to be in: a loving family in a garden.

I don't see a convolution about man's image following God's own redemptive action. It's what people actually do. Let me know.

Yes God created these things, but there is a situation being reflected between the title line (1:1) and the existing situation line (1:2). The unformed mess was due to divine judgement; that's the parallel to Jeremiah 4.

Until recently, I thought that the Heb 11:2 verb was saying from nothing (at all). It does not. It says that the existing was put in order (from chaos). I will send proximate comparisons when I get a chance (usages of the verb in the closest other NT material as possible).

 

[GeneZ]

I agree that in Christ are hidden all treasures of wisdom and knowledge, but I don't think that includes information about prehistoric times

So much for hidden treasures on your part?

What are you saying?

That you already know all truths? Ones that will remain hidden until God has someone dig them out and open the chest to reveal what is contained?

I wish you would make sense of the fact that some things are to be hidden until God decrees they be revealed.

 

[TB2]

What are you saying?

That you already know all truths?

Really? Is that what I said?

So much for hidden treasures on your part?

The main reference is to the mystery in Christ revealed in the Spirit

 

[Sereni-tea]

So much for hidden treasures on your part?

What are you saying?

That you already know all truths? Ones that will remain hidden until God has someone dig them out and open the chest to reveal what is contained?

I wish you would make sense of the fact that some things are to be hidden until God decrees they be revealed.

I agree that there is much that is hidden from us, some of which we need to dig for to discover as it has been lost over the years. But I am yet to see any Scripture that supports your views about prehistoric times. Perhaps you could be more explicit?

 

[GeneZ]

Indeed. Keyword "human"

How did the venus flytrap survive if there was no death?
How did the vegetable cells survive after Adam and Eve at them?
Why didn't Adam ask God about the new consequence of death when warned about it by God?

______
.

To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from
the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field."

Genesis 3:17-18


There were no thorns and thistles anywhere before the fall...
But, soon after Adam fell they appeared!

Plants transformed after the fall.... The whole creation became fallen.

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For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, ​

but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation ​

itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into ​

the freedom and glory of the children of God.​

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We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth​

right up to the present time." Romans 8:20-22​

There was no death before the fall in Adam's domain of the earth before his fall,

 

[GeneZ]

GeneZ:
that the prehistoric creation was to be under the dominion of angels

Please support this. The only thing I can think of is an implication from the line in Heb 2 that 'it was not to angels that he subjected the world to come'; the implication would be that God once planned to do that with earth, it failed; so he tried with mankind, failed; so he finally had to do so himself and pay for the failure of the past, in the Son. And that will be the NHNE.

Almost missed this because you did not link it to a quote by me... Like I just linked to you.

I will need to get back on this.

 

[GeneZ]

I agree that there is much that is hidden from us, some of which we need to dig for to discover as it has been lost over the years. But I am yet to see any Scripture that supports your views about prehistoric times. Perhaps you could be more explicit?

What was Satan's function on earth before he fell?

NASB​

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“How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!

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NIV​

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Shining morning star,​

how you have fallen from the heavens!​

You destroyer of nations,​

you have been cut down to the ground.​

Only certain angels were 'morning stars.'

Not all angels were created to be light bearing.

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God (angels) shouted for joy?​

Job 38:14​

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Satan before his fall was titled "the morning star."

Why?

He was the morning star that would bring in the morning light of the prehistoric world.
Its one of the reasons he became arrogant and overly impressed with himself.

grace and peace .......

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