Young Earth/Old Earth

[David1701]

Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned— Romans 5:12. Did the animals sin?
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13. So, is sin imputed unto animals now also?

Death entered through Adam's sin - all death. Animals are not morally accountable to God, so, no, sin is not imputed to them.

 

[David1701]

You think Satan fell when he tempted Eve? And you think that is clear? Do you mind pointing that out?

What? No, of course I don't think that Satan fell when he tempted Eve! As I said, he must have fallen some time after Day Six and before he tempted Eve.

 

[Carbon]

Death entered through Adam's sin - all death.

But it does not say all meaning animals also, it says to "all men" because "all sinned"

Animals are not morally accountable to God, so, no, sin is not imputed to them.

 

[David1701]

@David1701
Also, why didn't the devil's sin count for Adam and Eve? Why did they have to sin also for it to effect them?

Adam and Eve were not under the dominion of angels, nor was Earth their domain. Adam's realm was the Earth, and he had dominion over it. His fall affected all of it.

 

[GeneZ]

If this was God's plan, to have death of animals before Adam sinned, why would it not be good?

With the prehistoric world God had to introduce the angels to the concept of death with the likes of T-Rex.
Prior to the fall of angels, such a death was a foreign concept they could not relate to.

He also had to teach Satan and the angels the concept of what it meant to devour someone.

1 Peter 5:8​

​

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, ​

seeking whom he may devour."​

The prehistoric world was designed for angelic dominion.
Our world was created for man's dominion.

grace and peace.....

 

[Carbon]

What? No, of course I don't think that Satan fell when he tempted Eve! As I said, he must have fallen some time after Day Six and before he tempted Eve.

Okay, thanks, so that is just your opinion then. No scripture proof.

That's what I thought.

But he could have fallen even before God created the universe.

 

[David1701]

But it does not say all meaning animals also, it says to "all men" because "all sinned"

Death passed to all men, because we all sinned in Adam, and we are all morally accountable. Death passed to animals, because Adam had dominion over the Earth and his fall affected all of it.

 

[GeneZ]

Death entered through Adam's sin - all death. Animals are not morally accountable to God, so, no, sin is not imputed to them.

All spiritual death entered the world through one man... Adam.

For all men are born with such a nature that God can not impart spiritual life.

That is why we need to be born again.

........

 

[David1701]

Okay, thanks, so that is just your opinion then. No scripture proof.

That's what I thought.

But he could have fallen even before God created the universe.

God called everything "very good", on Day Six (i.e. no sin). Satan tempted Eve to sin, so he had obviously fallen by then. It's not rocket science.

Satan could not have fallen before God had created him...

 

[GeneZ]

Actually no. You misread my comment to Daivd1701. I was referring to the metaphor of the potter and clay that he brought up

OK.. thanks for the clarification.

grace and peace .............

 

[Carbon]

Death passed to all men, because we all sinned in Adam, and we are all morally accountable.

Okay.

Death passed to animals, because Adam had dominion over the Earth and his fall affected all of it.

But where does Scripture teach this? Arent you assuming such?

 

[GeneZ]

With the prehistoric world God had to introduce the angels to the concept of death with the likes of T-Rex.
Prior to the fall of angels, such a death was a foreign concept they could not relate to.

He also had to teach Satan and the angels the concept of what it meant to devour someone.

1 Peter 5:8​

​

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, ​

seeking whom he may devour."​

The prehistoric world was designed for angelic dominion.
Our world was created for man's dominion.

grace and peace.....

Think about it this way...

When Adam was told that when he ate he would surely die?
Only Satan knew at that time what physical death meant. He knew from his experience of seeing dinosaurs die.
Adam could not really know what it meant for no death in the garden existed before the fall.

That is what motivated Satan to tempt Adam as to knock off Adam and be able to reclaim rulership of the world.

Much to Satan's initial shock, Adam did not keel over and die when he ate.

For Adam ate and died "spiritually."

At first Satan must have seen God as a liar since Adam remained physically alive...
God was getting something out of that misunderstanding in His favor.


grace and peace.....

 

[David1701]

Okay.

But where does Scripture teach this? Arent you assuming such?

I'm just joining the dots, using clear scriptural teaching and simple logic. It's not difficult.

Rom. 8:19-23 (ESV)
19 For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God.
20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
23 And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the first fruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Creation obviously was not in "bondage to corruption", as originally created. So, what happened? Adam's fall happened, resulting in the whole created Earth becoming subject to the bondage of corruption (it's corruption that leads to death - corruption of our cells).

 

[Carbon]

God called everything "very good", on Day Six (i.e. no sin). Satan tempted Eve to sin, so he had obviously fallen by then. It's not rocket science.

Satan could not have fallen before God had created him...

But you said, Satan tempted Eve after day six.

I notice this concept, satan sinned on day six or after day six is mainly by young earthers. It would be pretty smart if they could prove it.

I also noticed that outside of this debate, most think satan sinned in eternity past.

Either is an argument from silence.

 

[Carbon]

Satan could not have fallen before God had created him...

I'm not sure why you would say this. It'nt that obvious?

But what is not obvious is that God created Satan on day six.

 

[TB2]

Gen. 1:29,30 (WEB)
29 God said, “Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed, which is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree, which bears fruit yielding seed. It will be your food.
30 To every animal of the earth, and to every bird of the sky, and to everything that creeps on the earth, in which there is life, I have given every green herb for food;” and it was so.

Thanks! I knew there was a verse to that effect but couldn't remember where. The consumption of meat is not expressly prohibited (and Psalms 104 which heavily alludes to the creation week speaks of God providing food for predators), but yes, you do have a point with this verse.

The whole death thing is tricky, because there obviously still is death... of plants... and bacteria with Adam's every step and (are we to assume no insects were ever killed too). There are just so many things that don't make sense (predators already created with fangs for ripping flesh and so on which is not a problem in light of Psalms 104 which depicts God providing for predators).

But what does seem clear is that animals and humans are created mortal ("from dust and to dust you will return"; "out of the ground God formed every beast and every bird..."). What seems clear is that Adam and Eve require God's life's sustaining presence in the garden of Eden to stay alive; suggesting that anything outside of the garden eventually dies

 

[Carbon]

The biggest issue with this debate is death before the fall. I have noticed that YE believers cannot prove with scripture that this death from Adam's sin came on anyone or anything but humans.

 

[TB2]

The biggest issue with this debate is death before the fall. I have noticed that YE believers cannot prove with scripture that this death from Adam's sin came on anyone or anything but humans.

It is definitely an assumption not supported by Scripture. We do see death come to animals (and all life really) as a consequence of humanity's sin (like with the flood), but when it comes to Adam's sin we only see the effect on humans.

Biblically, we also shouldn't miss the temporary, mortal nature of living things ("from the ground," "from the dust you came, to the dust you will return"). We see no evidence of Adam and Eve created with an immortal body that became mortal upon sinning. Instead, we see a mortal, physical body created ("from dust") prior to the fall (the temporary mortal, physical non-resurrection body of the "natural" that will be reconstituted by the Spirit into an immortal resurrection body; Paul even quotes this part of Genesis-- Adam's creation prior to the fall--in 1 Cor 15). Due to disobedience they are expelled from the garden and God's life sustaining presence and left to their own mortality. The whole picture suggests that anything outside the garden is part of the mortal realm that will be subject to death and decay.

Then there's the problem that the Bible also identifies the Pre-Flood Tigris River associated with the Garden of Eden in relation to the Post-Flood ancient Assyrian capital city of Ashur, whose ruins are still visible today on the Earth's surface; resting atop 5-6 miles of fossil record. That fact also suggests YECs need to rethink their assumptions.

 

[EarlyActs]

So, in this scenario, the Earth exists before God created it (it doesn't say recreated), which is a nonsense.

I understand, and that is an issue I have not resolved about the doctrine of creation. For ex., Heb 11 says it was created out of nothing.

But 2 Peter 3 has a contrast between the universe being 'ekpalai' (to have existed for a long time) and the earth being 'sunestosa' (to be formed as pottery, implying more recently). Actually both of 2 Peter 3's verbs might not match up with Heb 11, by forcing us to stay "local" in Gen 1 (where local = this solar system only, contrasting locations like 2P3). But 'sunestosa' would at least match Gen 1:2 if the verb tense is 'already there.' For Peter says it was made out of water and through water.

When speaking of the new covenant, do you find that nothing existed beforehand in Jeremiah? Isn't the difference that the Spirit would make people know the Law in their hearts? I'm just comparing 'out of nothing.'

I don't know why (as TB said was one of the issues) 1:2 would exist at all if it wasn't meant to be there before the acts of creation week.

Also, the degenerated parts of Persian, Hindi and Egyptian creation myths were corrected by doing so. The unformed was not there because evil is dualistically equal to the Creator. (See Lewis on degenerated myths in "The Myth That Became Fact" in GOD IN THE DOCK. Also see P. James-Griffith "Tracing Genesis Through Ancient Culture." On Youtube. He's a Scot! The key remark might be late in the talk, when he shows how world myths had to have fragmented from Genesis, not combined into become Genesis.)

I think the former U Toronto psychiatrist J. Peterson once discussed Gen 1 and said that the reason why there is a redeemed structure to the whole (a chaotic place is organized and made useful) is God's imprint on humankind. We naturally try to do this in everything in life--unless we are Marxists!

Waltke's book on these issues was called CREATION AND CHAOS. The 4 narratives he deals with started with a state of chaos, not non-existence.

 

[Carbon]

It is definitely an assumption not supported by Scripture.

Yes.

We do see death come to animals (and all life really) as a consequence of humanity's sin

Your saying death came to animals because of Adam's sin? Prove it with scripture.

(like with the flood), but when it comes to Adam's sin we only see the effect on humans.

We see what scripture teaches, not human wisdom trying to put it together. That's just opinion.