Young Earth/Old Earth

[David1701]

They were formed from dust from the beginning. Even Paul notes this in 1 Cor 15 in reference to the mortality of the natural perishable body. The point is they required God's life sustaining presence/Tree of Life. Hence expelled from garden.

Not really. Not trying to win an argument. Just discussing

It's the "...to dust you shall return" part to which I was referring, as being after the Fall, which I thought was obvious.

 

[GeneZ]

Really? Is that what I said?

The main reference is to the mystery in Christ revealed in the Spirit

Sorry... the meaning of those verses are yet hidden to you. You are seeing not what it says.

Christ is 'singular.' Those passages speak of a plurality of hidden treasures.

This is getting almost too difficult at this point.

Look!



Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of
wisdom and knowledge." Col 2:2-3

He is the Word! In the Word are hidden treasures! Plurality of gold silver and precious stones.

 

[Sereni-tea]

What was Satan's function on earth before he fell?

NASB​

​

“How you have fallen from heaven,
O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth,
You who have weakened the nations!

​

​

NIV​

​

Shining morning star,​

how you have fallen from the heavens!​

You destroyer of nations,​

you have been cut down to the ground.​

Only certain angels were 'morning stars.'

Not all angels were created to be light bearing.

“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?​

Tell Me, if you have understanding.​

Who determined its measurements?​

Surely you know!​

Or who stretched the line upon it?​

To what were its foundations fastened?​

Or who laid its cornerstone,​

When the morning stars sang together,​

And all the sons of God (angels) shouted for joy?​

Job 38:14​

​

Satan before his fall was titled "the morning star."

Why?

He was the morning star that would bring in the morning light of the prehistoric world.
Its one of the reasons he became arrogant and overly impressed with himself.

grace and peace .......

​

​

Isaiah 14 is primarily a prophecy against the human king of Babylon. Even if we were to allow that it was also in reference to Satan's fall from heaven, I think your interpretation is taking things further than intended.

 

[David1701]

I would say the problem to be solved was solved by Creation week. I don't know what the matter is. The language says what Jeremiah used for a destroyed city. That makes the unit of Gen 1--11 have a fascinating paradox: that mankind builds what God had destroyed. The OT carries this theme a lot; that people are worse for trying to create a 'city.' God gave them the best place to be in: a loving family in a garden.

I don't see a convolution about man's image following God's own redemptive action. It's what people actually do. Let me know.

Yes God created these things, but there is a situation being reflected between the title line (1:1) and the existing situation line (1:2). The unformed mess was due to divine judgement; that's the parallel to Jeremiah 4.

Until recently, I thought that the Heb 11:2 verb was saying from nothing (at all). It does not. It says that the existing was put in order (from chaos). I will send proximate comparisons when I get a chance (usages of the verb in the closest other NT material as possible).

The passage in Jeremiah is a metaphor; it cannot be used to interpret Gen. 1. Certainly, judgment can produce a situation akin to Genesis 1, which is what Jeremiah is talking about; but that does not mean that Genesis 1 starts with the results of a previous judgment.

Assuming that you are referring to Heb. 11:3 (rather than verse 2), I haven't seen a single translation with your slant; and I've checked many. Here are a few examples of sound translations.

Heb. 11:3 (KJV) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Heb. 11:3 (NKJV) By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Heb. 11:3 (ESV) By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

Heb. 11:3 (NASB) By faith we understand that the world has been created by the word of God so that what is seen has not been made out of things that are visible.

Heb. 11:3 (EHV) By faith we know that the universe was created by God’s word, so that what is seen did not come from visible things.

Heb. 11:3 (WEB) By faith, we understand that the universe has been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen has not been made out of things which are visible.

 

[GeneZ]

Isaiah 14 is primarily a prophecy against the human king of Babylon. Even if we were to allow that it was also in reference to Satan's fall from heaven, I think your interpretation is taking things further than intended.

The following was primarily a statement only about Peter?

From then on Jesus began to point out to His disciples that He must go to Jerusalem ​

and suffer many things from the elders, chief priests, and scribes, be killed, and be ​

raised the third day. Then Peter took Him aside and began to rebuke Him, “Oh no, ​

Lord! This will never happen to You!”​

​

But He turned and told Peter, “Get behind Me, Satan! You are an offense to Me ​

because you’re not thinking about God’s concerns, but man’s.”Matthew 16:21-23​

So, we did not know Peter's name was also Satan?
According to how you dealt with Isaiah 14? It would be that way.

It confounds me how some can not grasp such a simple technique God uses at times that will simultaneously
be dealing with Satan and a person who was modeling himself after the ways of Satan.

 

[Mantis]

Well the earth is forever says the book so I am thinking it has been here a loooooooooonnnnnng time. The Bible is a riddle and if you are 100% sure on something, you are probably wrong lol. All I know is that Jesus is real and he is our Lord and savior! Everything else is speculation for me!

 

[David1701]

Well the earth is forever says the book so I am thinking it has been here a loooooooooonnnnnng time. The Bible is a riddle and if you are 100% sure on something, you are probably wrong lol. All I know is that Jesus is real and he is our Lord and savior! Everything else is speculation for me!

...if you are 100% sure on something, you are probably wrong...

Are you 100% sure about that?

Just because almost everything in the Bible is speculation for you, does not mean that you have to portray everyone else as being on the same level. We are to get knowledge and understanding, as we mature. I'm sure that you will as well, in time.

 

[GeneZ]

The passage in Jeremiah is a metaphor; it cannot be used to interpret Gen. 1.

How does it work as a metaphor???????

You are just pushing Jeremiah 4:27 aside, because its inconvenient for your desired outcome.

If not?

Show how that is even possible?

Jeremiah 4:27 was telling the Jews how his quoting of Genesis 1:2 needed a be tamed down.

This is what the Lord says:​

​

“The whole land will be ruined,​

though I will not destroy it completely." Jer 4:27​

Why even say that if Genesis 1:2 is the gentle serene setting as you keep trying to push on some here?

Jeremiah had to say vs 27 to let the people know (after citing Genesis 1:2) that they will not end up totally
like the planet earth was found in in Genesis 1:2.

You are not being intellectually honest if you continue insisting upon saying the same thing after it was shown not to be so.

Here is Genesis 1:2 from Jewish translators...

​

Now the earth was chaos and waste, darkness was on the surface of the deep, ​

and the Ruach Elohim was hovering upon the surface of the water.​

Tree of Life (TLV) Translation of the Bible. Copyright © 2015 by The Messianic Jewish Family Bible Society.

 

[Mantis]

Are you 100% sure about that?

Just because almost everything in the Bible is speculation for you, does not mean that you have to portray everyone else as being on the same level. We are to get knowledge and understanding, as we mature. I'm sure that you will as well, in time.

Nope not at all. Like I say, all I’m sure about is Jesus. That’s all. Sorry didn’t mean to offend. I’ve just seen about as much pride as I’ve ever seen on these Christian forums. And everyone thinks they are right, yet it’s all different. I seriously don’t think anyone has it all figured out. I do study and and am just blown away at all the different interpretations of the same words. I don’t think Protestant Christianity nor Catholic or anyone has it all right. Maybe you do I dunno lol.

 

[EarlyActs]

The passage in Jeremiah is a metaphor; it cannot be used to interpret Gen. 1. Certainly, judgment can produce a situation akin to Genesis 1, which is what Jeremiah is talking about; but that does not mean that Genesis 1 starts with the results of a previous judgment.

Assuming that you are referring to Heb. 11:3 (rather than verse 2), I haven't seen a single translation with your slant; and I've checked many. Here are a few examples of sound translations.

Heb. 11:3 (KJV) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

Heb. 11:3 (NKJV) By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

Heb. 11:3 (ESV) By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.

Heb. 11:3 (NASB) By faith we understand that the world has been created by the word of God so that what is seen has not been made out of things that are visible.

Heb. 11:3 (EHV) By faith we know that the universe was created by God’s word, so that what is seen did not come from visible things.

Heb. 11:3 (WEB) By faith, we understand that the universe has been framed by the word of God, so that what is seen has not been made out of things which are visible.

Here are the usages of 'katartizo'
Two are close by to Heb 11: Heb 13:21 about completing all good things they needed to do
10:5: God prepares a body for Christ.

In Paul (who may have expressed, but not written, Hebrews), there are several uses with a mess in the background:
Gal 6:1 helping those misguided by the Judaizers
2 Cor 13:9, 11 restoring about the church discipline situation
I Cor 1:10 against the divisiveness of following one teacher vs another
Rom 9:22 to create to be destroyed...

Another group is about getting students to a level of competence: Eph 4:12, Lk 6:40, I Pet 5:10, I Th 3:10. Some teachers would call them a 'mess' to start with!

Mt 4:21 and Mk 1:19 are both about straightening out/cleaning fishing nets.

There is a usage outside the NT that is medical: 'setting a fractured bone'

One use in Isaiah is restoration; I don't know any time when restoration is used without a problem, mess, dissemblage, etc.

I'm kind of surprised by the # of trans that used 'framed' when it doesn't show in the literary lexicon, BAG. I don't mean that it is simply not there, I mean that 'framing' is an incomplete task in itself on new material. All of the locations above are about a complete task on existing but disheveled material, right?

This is not the only time when translations have wandered quite a ways from the tangible usage (fishing nets, broken bones, group discord, student maturation) which helps us see the word in the instance that we are in.

I taught Greek intro 2 years, and took 2 years of master's level, which included one term of translating Josephus' high-end Greek in JEWISH WAR. Multnomah U and Regent College, Vancouver.

 

[Inertia]

To Adam he said, “Because you listened to your wife and ate fruit from
the tree about which I commanded you, ‘You must not eat from it,’

“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field."

Genesis 3:17-18


There were no thorns and thistles anywhere before the fall...
But, soon after Adam fell they appeared!

Plants transformed after the fall.... The whole creation became fallen.

​

For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, ​

but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation ​

itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into ​

the freedom and glory of the children of God.​

​

We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth​

right up to the present time." Romans 8:20-22​

There was no death before the fall in Adam's domain of the earth before his fall,

None of the verses quoted ^above^ addresses the concept of death.

Adam didn't ask God, "What is death"? God also did not have to explain the concept of it to Him. Adam understood.

In order for a venus flytrap to eat, insects were devoured. - Death existed.

________
.

 

[GeneZ]

None of the verses quoted ^above^ addresses the concept of death.

Adam didn't ask God, "What is death"? God also did not have to explain the concept of it to Him. Adam understood.

In order for a venus flytrap to eat, insects were devoured. - Death existed.

________
.

You are missing a point about death. If it was as you, say?.. That God showed Adam he would die like a fly? Why would Adam do it?
Not to mention.... Adam remained physically alive on the day he did eat.

Telling Adam about dying sent a message to Satan who would have loved to see Adam drop dead. Satan from the prehistoric upheaval fully understood what physical death means. Telling Adam what the Lord did was in a way like the Lord presenting to Satan... "Have you ever considered my servant Job?" (Job 1:8)

When Adam ate he did not die like a fly. For he died a spiritual death which resulted in physical death many centuries after eating.

The Hebrew command given to Adam was more literally as follows .. "on the day that you should eat 'in dying to shall die."

Hence... "In dying (spiritually) you shall (as a result) die physically."

That is why it took almost 900 years for Adam to die physically, but died instantly when he ate, spiritually!

"But you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good ​

and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.” Gen 2:17​

Adam did not die physically in the day he ate!

But, God does not lie.

Adam ate and died "spiritually."

grace and peace ................

 

[Sereni-tea]

@GeneZ You misunderstood me. My problem is not so much with what you said here:

It confounds me how some can not grasp such a simple technique God uses at times that will simultaneously
be dealing with Satan and a person who was modeling himself after the ways of Satan.

What baffled me was how you go from that to the idea of some prehistoric creation.

If you understood that a prehistoric creation existed before our world replaced it on the surface of the earth?
And, that the prehistoric creation was to be under the dominion of angels, just as Adam was the head over this creation?
You might begin to better understand reasons why Satan fell, and when.

What prehistoric creation existed before our world and how do you know that it was under dominion of angels? Can you provide some Scripture to support this claim. Thanks.

 

[David1701]

Nope not at all. Like I say, all I’m sure about is Jesus. That’s all. Sorry didn’t mean to offend. I’ve just seen about as much pride as I’ve ever seen on these Christian forums. And everyone thinks they are right, yet it’s all different. I seriously don’t think anyone has it all figured out. I do study and and am just blown away at all the different interpretations of the same words. I don’t think Protestant Christianity nor Catholic or anyone has it all right. Maybe you do I dunno lol.

I doubt if anyone here would claim to have everything worked out; but that doesn't mean that we have to just believe in Jesus, and resign ourselves to ignorance about everything else.

Yes, there are different "interpretations" of just about any doctrine that you care to name; however, the truth is there, in God's word, and he leads us into it. We need to have a firm grasp of, and faith in, the fundamentals of the faith, because there are many wolves in sheep's clothing.

1 Cor. 11:18,19 (MKJV)
18 For first of all, when you come together in the church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and I partly believe it.
19 For there must also be heresies among you, that the approved ones may be revealed among you.

Rom. 16:17 (WEB) Now I beg you, brothers, look out for those who are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and turn away from them.

Jude 3,4 (WEB)
3 Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For there are certain men who crept in secretly, even those who were long ago written about for this condemnation: ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into indecency, and denying our only Master, God, and Lord, Jesus Christ.

You mentioned Roman Catholicism; well, that is a pseudo-Christian cult, full of paganism and traditions of men. It's not a church at all.

 

[David1701]

Here are the usages of 'katartizo'
Two are close by to Heb 11: Heb 13:21 about completing all good things they needed to do
10:5: God prepares a body for Christ.

In Paul (who may have expressed, but not written, Hebrews), there are several uses with a mess in the background:
Gal 6:1 helping those misguided by the Judaizers
2 Cor 13:9, 11 restoring about the church discipline situation
I Cor 1:10 against the divisiveness of following one teacher vs another
Rom 9:22 to create to be destroyed...

Another group is about getting students to a level of competence: Eph 4:12, Lk 6:40, I Pet 5:10, I Th 3:10. Some teachers would call them a 'mess' to start with!

Mt 4:21 and Mk 1:19 are both about straightening out/cleaning fishing nets.

There is a usage outside the NT that is medical: 'setting a fractured bone'

One use in Isaiah is restoration; I don't know any time when restoration is used without a problem, mess, dissemblage, etc.

I'm kind of surprised by the # of trans that used 'framed' when it doesn't show in the literary lexicon, BAG. I don't mean that it is simply not there, I mean that 'framing' is an incomplete task in itself on new material. All of the locations above are about a complete task on existing but disheveled material, right?

This is not the only time when translations have wandered quite a ways from the tangible usage (fishing nets, broken bones, group discord, student maturation) which helps us see the word in the instance that we are in.

I taught Greek intro 2 years, and took 2 years of master's level, which included one term of translating Josephus' high-end Greek in JEWISH WAR. Multnomah U and Regent College, Vancouver.

Starting with an unformed mess (as a potter does), and repairing something damaged, which is, therefore, disordered, are similar. You cannot use instances of repair and then claim that creation must have been repair as well! Of course most instances will be about starting with something already in existence, since there was only one creation week!

Thayer's Lexicon (an electronic edition, in my Bible study programme)

2675 katartizo {kat-ar-tid'-zo} 1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete 1a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair 1a1) to complete 1b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust 1b1) to fit or frame for one's self, prepare 1c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be

Only meaning 1a) is about repairing/mending. To complete, arrange, equip, etc., all fit creation very well, without needing some hypothetical previous ruination.

 

[Mantis]

I doubt if anyone here would claim to have everything worked out; but that doesn't mean that we have to just believe in Jesus, and resign ourselves to ignorance about everything else.

Yes, there are different "interpretations" of just about any doctrine that you care to name; however, the truth is there, in God's word, and he leads us into it. We need to have a firm grasp of, and faith in, the fundamentals of the faith, because there are many wolves in sheep's clothing.

1 Cor. 11:18,19 (MKJV)
18 For first of all, when you come together in the church, I hear that there are divisions among you, and I partly believe it.
19 For there must also be heresies among you, that the approved ones may be revealed among you.

Rom. 16:17 (WEB) Now I beg you, brothers, look out for those who are causing the divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine which you learned, and turn away from them.

Jude 3,4 (WEB)
3 Beloved, while I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I was constrained to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.
4 For there are certain men who crept in secretly, even those who were long ago written about for this condemnation: ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into indecency, and denying our only Master, God, and Lord, Jesus Christ.

You mentioned Roman Catholicism; well, that is a pseudo-Christian cult, full of paganism and traditions of men. It's not a church at all.

Yeah I am not a Catholic. All I know is I’m a Christian. God planted me in a town with 30+ churches. Which one teaches the truth? So I attend (when I can I’m disabled) that is run by bikers. Like reformed hells angels type guys. Protestant. But what I like is they are very kind to the homeless and allow homeless in their church and do outreach etc. they have a good heart and I like that. And the sermons always are Jesus centered so I go there. I’m just waiting for Jesus to come along and say “this is the truth” because I no longer trust in man’s many, many interpretations of the Bible.

 

[David1701]

Yeah I am not a Catholic. All I know is I’m a Christian. God planted me in a town with 30+ churches. Which one teaches the truth? So I attend (when I can I’m disabled) that is run by bikers. Like reformed hells angels type guys. Protestant. But what I like is they are very kind to the homeless and allow homeless in their church and do outreach etc. they have a good heart and I like that. And the sermons always are Jesus centered so I go there. I’m just waiting for Jesus to come along and say “this is the truth” because I no longer trust in man’s many, many interpretations of the Bible.

A good heart is a good sign...

 

[TB2]

Speaking of interpretations, the present discussion all goes back to the debate over whether Gen 1.1 is meant to be understood as a summary/title or initial act of creation. But as I've said, difficulties are encountered either way, regardless. We're left with two basic options, neither of which is appealing.

Option 1: If Gen 1.1 is God's first act of creation ("created the heavens and the earth"), then why did God 'create' and formless and void state of chaos that is antithetical to everything He does during the six day creation week? Ex 20.18 also limits creation to the six days (which suggests Gen 1.1 is a title/summary, not a first act). We also have the problem that God doesn't create an inhabitable earth until Day 3, nor the sky/heavens until Day 2.

(*the formless lump of clay on the potter's wheel metaphor does not aptly capture the 'total chaos' represented by tohu wabohu, which is antithetical to God's creative activity during the six days; the partial return to this primeval state of chaos is a judgment by God in the Jeremiah passage we've looked at. Compared to the six day Creation week, V2 is not a "creation" that God would create).

Option 2: However, if Gen 1.1 is a title/summary statement and not an initial act of creation, that solves some of the problems above, but then creates the problem of pre-existent matter prior to God's start of creation.

Either way, v.2 presents a problem. I don't claim to have a solution. I agree that the Gap Theory doesn't solve the problem, and requires reading a whole back story in between v1 and v2, which is completely conjectural.

But it's fair to acknowledge there are unsolved problems for every view.

 

[EarlyActs]

Starting with an unformed mess (as a potter does), and repairing something damaged, which is, therefore, disordered, are similar. You cannot use instances of repair and then claim that creation must have been repair as well! Of course most instances will be about starting with something already in existence, since there was only one creation week!

Thayer's Lexicon (an electronic edition, in my Bible study programme)

2675 katartizo {kat-ar-tid'-zo} 1) to render, i.e. to fit, sound, complete 1a) to mend (what has been broken or rent), to repair 1a1) to complete 1b) to fit out, equip, put in order, arrange, adjust 1b1) to fit or frame for one's self, prepare 1c) ethically: to strengthen, perfect, complete, make one what he ought to be

Only meaning 1a) is about repairing/mending. To complete, arrange, equip, etc., all fit creation very well, without needing some hypothetical previous ruination.

1c is about repairing.

Ever figure out why we should "just trust Thayer's" when references are not provided? The BAG lexicon had some 10 column inches of references; the other literature provide a number of tangible cases if you are interested further. (Tangible means concrete objects involved like broken bones, not abstract concepts like ownership of property or virtues).

If you can find those translations that favored frame and tell me if they have a footnote, that would be great. I had a similar very puzzling case on the term 'dexastha' (to receive in honor) in Acts 3:21 where half of 20 translations checked simply said to keep (pass.: must be kept)--as though God was tying Christ down, when the previous expression was that God was sending him!

On Jer 4:23, I don't think you understand the consequence. When you have a unique expression like tohu wa-bohu, and it only shows in one other place, a lot of weight must go on that. Of course, the Jerusalem instance is an analogy, so what? Literarily we would follow the analogy, not leave it.

What if we were reading LOTR and Gandalf just let Pippin keep a pilantir found at Saruman's tower as a toy and ignored what he knew (and we knew) from other experience? You'd probably choke at the inconsistency of the story.

Waltke and Cassuto are two outstanding conservative Hebrew scholars. Cassuto single-handedly destroyed the JEDP hypothesis in FROM ADAM TO NOAH. Both remark that the tense of the imperfect Hebrew in the pre-existing condition stage of the narrative (before new action starts) is 'already' and Waltke found that Genesis was answering ancient near east cosmologies (Egyptian, Persian, Hindi). They were incorrectly dualistic, where good and evil have equal power. Genesis has Yahweh, who had destroyed what was there in judgement, and was using the material to make a new earth and solar system.

(Later in Isaiah we will read that God would 'create evil, and make new' because it was unthinkable in OT theology that there would be equal powers. Our current term 'katartizo' comes back to this by being used in Rom 9:22. Paul would not accept that the evil that caused Israel's unbelief was a thing that had power comparable to God; instead that was formed by God for certain purposes, as objects of wrath, vs. 20--23.

Rabbi Cassuto showed that all of the oral transmission section of Gen 1--39 has the 4 part structure:
1, section title
2, pre-existing conditions
3, new action, narrative
4, summary line

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Yeah I am not a Catholic. All I know is I’m a Christian. God planted me in a town with 30+ churches. Which one teaches the truth? So I attend (when I can I’m disabled) that is run by bikers. Like reformed hells angels type guys. Protestant. But what I like is they are very kind to the homeless and allow homeless in their church and do outreach etc. they have a good heart and I like that. And the sermons always are Jesus centered so I go there. I’m just waiting for Jesus to come along and say “this is the truth” because I no longer trust in man’s many, many interpretations of the Bible.

With all thy getting, get knowledge. And with all thy knowledge, get understanding." Remember that?

How does a person mature and grow unless they learn? Do you want to learn? Yes, all the different interpretations and positions Christians hold can be overwhelming and confusing. But focus on yourself more than all that stuff. If you are satisfied with your simple approach that's fine but you can't hold others to your same standard, right?