Young Earth/Old Earth

[Carbon]

And the primate?

Well the monkey wasn’t created in God’s image.

 

[Shulammite]

I think you missed my overall point. A lot of people say the Universe/Earth is only 6000 years old, when I point out the Laws of Nature says different, as in we see light from Stars billions of years away they say, (I thought everyone knew their rebut) well God is God, He can just do as He so pleases, he he chance all of the "constants" in creation, then can switch back, thus my point is why does an eternal God living in ALL TIME need to hurry up creation? He lives in the finished product as soon as He orders Creation. They say, well the Speed of Light used to be different blah blah blah.

God fine tuned the Universe with a particular set of Laws we know as the Laws of Nature like the Speed of Light. As a matter of fact if matter the size of one more grain of sand had been present at the big bang, this universe would have never have come into existence. An argument by atheist is if we are the only being in existence why is the universe so big? Well, Richard Deem, a Christian scientist shows why the universe had to be this size, he talks about how because of thermodynamics if the universe had been any bigger or smaller it would have collapsed on itself and going the other direction it would have been mostly gaseous with nor rocky (planets) formations I forget which direction causes which result).


That is the thing, if you rea post # 440, bottom of the previous page for me, you will understand that YOWM does not man "DAY" per se, its a Period of Time and then the description is added in giving us the understanding, it is used for month, day, year, 2 years, evermore, perpetual, X WHOLE etc. etc. Our fallen nature happened after creation, and we had nothing to do with creation anyway. The Laws of Nature (which simply means the laws God applied as evidence, to create the universe) are what they are. God lives outside of time, He created the Space Time Continuum for us. So, there is no time where God is from, ese He would need to have been created.


No, that is m y point, the Laws of Nature God created the universe with would have to have been different from what they actually are, if not the universe ha to be 13.7 billion years old. That has zero to do with flesh, we can measure all of the constants. For instance the five constants: the speed of light in vacuum, c; the Planck constant, h; the elementary charge, e; the Avogadro constant, NA; and the Boltzmann constant, kB, have known exact numerical values when expressed in SI units as in:

The Five Primary Constants

They include the velocity of light in vacuum (c); the charge of the electron, the absolute value of which is the fundamental unit of electric charge (e); the mass of the electron (me); Planck's constant (h); and the fine-structure constant, symbolized by the Greek letter alpha. These will all be considered in detail below.

But I will just list all of the constants below

Speed of light in a vacuum 299 792 458 m/s
Planck constant 6.626 070 15 x 10-34 J s
Newtonian gravitational constant 6.674 30 x 10-11 m3 kg-1 s-2
Avogadro constant 6.022 140 76 x 1023 mol-1
Fine structure constant 7.297 352 5693 x 10-3
Stefan-Boltzman constant 5.670 374 419 x 10-8 W m-2 K-4
Faraday constant 96 485.332 12 C mol-1
Molar mass of Carbon-12 11.999 999 9958 x 10-3 mol-1
Vacuum electric permittivity 8.854 187 8128 x 10-12 F m-1
Vacuum magnetic permittivity 1.256 637 062 12 N A-2
Elementary charge 1.602 176 634 x 10-19 C
Boltzman constant 1.380 649 x 10-23 J K-1

-------------------------------------------------
So, these all have mathematical equations we can measure, thus the universe has to be 13.7 billion yeas old according to all of the data unless God changed the "Laws of Nature" or the physical constants, its simple math, either it adds up or it doesn't. In order for the universe not to be 13.7 years old God would have had to change these constants He used to create the universe with, and since God lives in al time, why would He need to do that, as soon as He spoke creation is was finished in His realm, not in our realm. So, God had zero reason to change them. That is the point.


The time travel of heavenly beings does not change the laws of the "Seed of Light". Ty probably travel through worm holes, but that is not relevant unto the Speed of Light being a constant, it is what it is.


The Laws of Nature mandates a 13.7 billion old universe, OR God changed the Laws of Nature. Now I need to know why a God living in ALL TIME needed to change His brilliant Laws of Nature (constants). He doesn't need to.

So, you think the days mentioned in Genesis are what? A thousand year day as to one of God's days or a 24 hr day or something more?

 

[Shulammite]

Well the monkey wasn’t created in God’s image.

Lol! I know. That was easy enough. Leaving the heavy lifting for the phyisists and biologists are you.

 

[Inertia]

And the primate?

I have reason to believe that one of them was made in His image.

_____
.

 

[Inertia]

Well the monkey wasn’t created in God’s image.

... just a nit-pick. Monkeys have tails.

Then you might reply: "How do you know? The tail might be hidden."

Then I respond - "You've got me."

______
.

 

[Carbon]

So, you think the days mentioned in Genesis are what? A thousand year day as to one of God's days or a 24 hr day or something more?

Well if each day was 1000 years, it still wouldn’t throw off anything since God said to Adam, the day you eat you will die. Since he lived 930 years? He still died the same day.

 

[Carbon]

... just a nit-pick. Monkeys have tails.

Then you might reply: "How do you know? The tail might be hidden."

Then I respond - "You've got me."

______
.

No. I’d say, how do you know every monkey has a tail? Have you seen every monkey?

 

[Shulammite]

I think you missed my overall point. A lot of people say the Universe/Earth is only 6000 years old, when I point out the Laws of Nature says different, as in we see light from Stars billions of years away they say, (I thought everyone knew their rebut) well God is God, He can just do as He so pleases, he he chance all of the "constants" in creation, then can switch back, thus my point is why does an eternal God living in ALL TIME need to hurry up creation? He lives in the finished product as soon as He orders Creation. They say, well the Speed of Light used to be different blah blah blah.

God fine tuned the Universe with a particular set of Laws we know as the Laws of Nature like the Speed of Light. As a matter of fact if matter the size of one more grain of sand had been present at the big bang, this universe would have never have come into existence. An argument by atheist is if we are the only being in existence why is the universe so big? Well, Richard Deem, a Christian scientist shows why the universe had to be this size, he talks about how because of thermodynamics if the universe had been any bigger or smaller it would have collapsed on itself and going the other direction it would have been mostly gaseous with nor rocky (planets) formations I forget which direction causes which result).


That is the thing, if you rea post # 440, bottom of the previous page for me, you will understand that YOWM does not man "DAY" per se, its a Period of Time and then the description is added in giving us the understanding, it is used for month, day, year, 2 years, evermore, perpetual, X WHOLE etc. etc. Our fallen nature happened after creation, and we had nothing to do with creation anyway. The Laws of Nature (which simply means the laws God applied as evidence, to create the universe) are what they are. God lives outside of time, He created the Space Time Continuum for us. So, there is no time where God is from, ese He would need to have been created.


No, that is m y point, the Laws of Nature God created the universe with would have to have been different from what they actually are, if not the universe ha to be 13.7 billion years old. That has zero to do with flesh, we can measure all of the constants. For instance the five constants: the speed of light in vacuum, c; the Planck constant, h; the elementary charge, e; the Avogadro constant, NA; and the Boltzmann constant, kB, have known exact numerical values when expressed in SI units as in:

The Five Primary Constants

They include the velocity of light in vacuum (c); the charge of the electron, the absolute value of which is the fundamental unit of electric charge (e); the mass of the electron (me); Planck's constant (h); and the fine-structure constant, symbolized by the Greek letter alpha. These will all be considered in detail below.

But I will just list all of the constants below

Speed of light in a vacuum 299 792 458 m/s
Planck constant 6.626 070 15 x 10-34 J s
Newtonian gravitational constant 6.674 30 x 10-11 m3 kg-1 s-2
Avogadro constant 6.022 140 76 x 1023 mol-1
Fine structure constant 7.297 352 5693 x 10-3
Stefan-Boltzman constant 5.670 374 419 x 10-8 W m-2 K-4
Faraday constant 96 485.332 12 C mol-1
Molar mass of Carbon-12 11.999 999 9958 x 10-3 mol-1
Vacuum electric permittivity 8.854 187 8128 x 10-12 F m-1
Vacuum magnetic permittivity 1.256 637 062 12 N A-2
Elementary charge 1.602 176 634 x 10-19 C
Boltzman constant 1.380 649 x 10-23 J K-1

-------------------------------------------------
So, these all have mathematical equations we can measure, thus the universe has to be 13.7 billion yeas old according to all of the data unless God changed the "Laws of Nature" or the physical constants, its simple math, either it adds up or it doesn't. In order for the universe not to be 13.7 years old God would have had to change these constants He used to create the universe with, and since God lives in al time, why would He need to do that, as soon as He spoke creation is was finished in His realm, not in our realm. So, God had zero reason to change them. That is the point.


The time travel of heavenly beings does not change the laws of the "Seed of Light". Ty probably travel through worm holes, but that is not relevant unto the Speed of Light being a constant, it is what it is.


The Laws of Nature mandates a 13.7 billion old universe, OR God changed the Laws of Nature. Now I need to know why a God living in ALL TIME needed to change His brilliant Laws of Nature (constants). He doesn't need to.

Well if each day was 1000 years, it still wouldn’t throw off anything since God said to Adam, the day you eat you will die. Since he lived 930 years? He still died the same day.

Ok. My point was, Adam's age is given to us concerning how long he lived outside of the spirit and in the flesh. In the fallen nature he only lived 930 yrs. Prior to the fall I believe he existed 6,000 yrs leaping off God's Day of rest to the temptation and fall. I believe " in the cool of the day" indicates a period just before entering another Day of Rest for God. I am taking the days to mean the measurements of one of God's days- each of the 7 days is a thousand years. Following another 6 thousand during the " cool of the day" of it, God was about checking in on His creation just before another cycle of rest. It was at that 6,000th year after creation and God's 7 th day of rest that Adam and Eve ran amuck.

 

[Carbon]

Ok. My point was, Adam's age is given to us concerning how long he lived outside of the spirit and in the flesh. In the fallen nature he only lived 930 yrs. Prior to the fall I believe he existed 6,000 yrs leaping off God's Day of rest to the temptation and fall. I believe " in the cool of the day" indicates a period just before entering another Day of Rest for God. I am taking the days to mean the measurements of one of God's days- each of the 7 days is a thousand years. Following another 6 thousand during the " cool of the day" of it, God was about checking in on His creation just before another cycle of rest. It was at that 6,000th year after creation and God's 7 th day of, rest that Adam and Eve ran amuck.

Okay. But don’t see how you come to that conclusion.

 

[Shulammite]

Okay. But don’t see how you come to that conclusion.

Yeah I see that. No biggie. Maybe you need to read slowly my initial assessment on it all. I think it's pretty simple. Seven thousand years -creation, and rest included. Moving forward I believe there is a riddle from God in Genensis. I believe that " in the cool of the day" actually is wherein lies the riddle and it actually means entering into another day of rest. Call it poetic license. Sometimes poetry uses words to describe a deeper and different meaning. It should be taken less at face value and more as allegory to something else. Clearly, God rested on the 7 th day ( in my thousand year take of a day). Moving forward, "in the cool of the day" of the next 6,000 years after creation, it was time to whine down for another rest- cool down hence, " in the cool of the day". It was just before the next day of rest for God that the fall happened and Adam and Eve fell asleep on Wisdom and their eyes opened to their flesh and they realized they were naked before God - in sin.

 

[Carbon]

Yeah I see that. No biggie. Maybe you need to read slowly my initial assessment on it all. I think it's pretty simple. Seven thousand years -creation, and rest included. Moving forward I believe there is a riddle from God in Genensis. I believe that " in the cool of the day" actually is wherein lies the riddle and it actually means entering into another day of rest. Call it poetic license. Sometimes poetry uses words to describe a deeper and different meaning. It should be taken less at face value and more as allegory to something else. Clearly, God rested on the 7 th day ( in my thousand year take of a day). Moving forward, "in the cool of the day" of the next 6,000 years after creation, it was time to whine down for another rest- cool down hence, " in the cool of the day". It was just before the next day of rest for God that the fall happened and Adam and Eve fell asleep on Wisdom and their eyes opened to their flesh and they realized they were naked before God - in sin.

But that’s all speculation and xtra-biblical.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

So, you think the days mentioned in Genesis are what? A thousand year day as to one of God's days or a 24 hr day or something more?

No, they are a YOWM.............insert information to figure out the TIME PERIOD. When you see a word used for multiple periods of time, when it is used for a year a day, a month, a season, for perpetual events that last forever etc. etc. then the information the verse/sentence describes the Period of time, it was never a "Day" it was a YOWM, which does not mean day, however day is a "TIME PERIOD" right? So YOWM is used for day or for 1000 years or for 9.2 billion years. The info in the verse s what gives us the timeline.

In other words if the Hebrew was speaking bout a full Harvest Season they would have used YOWM then described it by describing what was harvested etc. It was a primitive language, I think it was the first ever Alphabet created by Joseph whilst in Egypt via some Documentaries I have watched.

So, its a TIME PERIOD, and God describes it from his point of view. So we get the info, now we have to understand what was the YOWM being spoken of? And in these modern times we can understand how creation came into being by measuring all of the constants. They all add up to 13.7 billion years in total. So each YOWM is described, the first YOWM lasted from the order to create everything unto the Sun and Earth being created 4.5 billion years ago, so that first YOWM (time period) lasted for 9.2 billion years.

The problem people have is they get things stuck in their minds like YOWM has to mean a day, that is a false notion. YOWM is a TIME PERIOD. Then you insert the info which describes that period. So the Hebrew old Testament called it a YOWM (Time Period) the English mandated it be "Days" it was not days. Do you understand how long the earths surface crust would have been too hot for anything to live on it? SMILE, people just do not think these things through.


It took several hundred million years for the earths surface to cool in order to form an outer crust.

How Did the Earth Form? The Sun and its family of planets formed when a cloud of dust and gas condensed 4.6 billion years ago. Several hundred million years after the Earth took form, an outer crust developed.

No vegetation could have even grown in order to feed animals for millions of years.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

Ok. My point was, Adam's age is given to us concerning how long he lived outside of the spirit and in the flesh. In the fallen nature he only lived 930 yrs. Prior to the fall I believe he existed 6,000 yrs leaping off God's Day of rest to the temptation and fall. I believe " in the cool of the day" indicates a period just before entering another Day of Rest for God. I am taking the days to mean the measurements of one of God's days- each of the 7 days is a thousand years. Following another 6 thousand during the " cool of the day" of it, God was about checking in on His creation just before another cycle of rest. It was at that 6,000th year after creation and God's 7 th day of rest that Adam and Eve ran amuck.

We would just be guessing, I think God is saying Adam lived in his Created Body for 930 years. Some of that time his flesh knew no sin stain and the rest of that time it knew sin stain, that is my best understanding. Mankind as we are now known, imho, was created 6000 or so years ago when God placed His Spirit in us making us immortal souls.

 

[Shulammite]

But that’s all speculation and xtra-biblical.

No not really. I am actually keeping with the bible. The bible also states that Wisdom knows the meaning of the riddles of God and the sayings of the wise. I am the only one in this discussion who kept it all biblical actually. So, not really sure why you think otherwise. Including the day, I kept it biblical stating that the days are measured by one of God's concerning length of day in meaning a thousand. The real speculation comes from science which even states that their age of the universe and earth # is an estimate, it is conjecture. Hence, The Big Bang Theory. I am being exacting because I believe my bible. The word sets the pace. The world tells you its take in order to distract and put doubt in God's word. The zombies obediently follow. That little graduation cap isn't a freemason board and cement pallet for nothing. You learn what they want you to know. And news flash, there is no way for man to measure the expanding universe because 1. it is continuously expanding and rotating 2. point of light origin only goes as far as the naked eye can see with a telescope and 3.since God made it only He can measure it, being outside of it, as its Creator. Man can speculate on measurements .4. Time, from the perception of the fallen nature will always seem greater.

 

[Shulammite]

No not really. I am actually keeping with the bible. The bible also states that Wisdom knows the meaning of the riddles of God and the sayings of the wise. I am the only one in this discussion who kept it all biblical actually. So, not really sure why you think otherwise. Including the day, I kept it biblical stating that the days are measured by one of God's concerning length of day in meaning a thousand. The real speculation comes from science which even states that their age of the universe and earth # is an estimate, it is conjecture. Hence, The Big Bang Theory. I am being exacting because I believe my bible. The word sets the pace. The world tells you its take in order to distract and put doubt in God's word. The zombies obediently follow. That little graduation cap isn't a freemason board and cement pallet for nothing. You learn what they want you to know. And news flash, there is no way for man to measure the expanding universe because 1. it is continuously expanding and rotating 2. point of light origin only goes as far as the naked eye can see with a telescope and 3.since God made it only He can measure it, being outside of it, as its Creator. Man can speculate on measurements .4. Time, from the perception of the fallen nature will always seem greater.

Another riddle in Genesis. When God says to the serpent " On your belly shall you crawl and dust shall you eat all the DAYS of your life" is actually a prophecy. Because clearly, God isn't punishing a snake with what it does naturally according to its design. It is a twofold application stating Lucifer's position but most importantly his life as a man.

God is foretelling of the Man of Sins time on earth. And he will be the embodiment of satan (Lucifer) himself. Crawling on your belly means- he will only go by his own gut instinct and will always be looking for some poor soul to devour- he will always be hungry and never full based on only having gut instinct.

The " dust" he shall always eat all the days of his life means his knowkedge will be always underfoot of the Elect and he will always eat the dust they kick up at him. Moving forward with the Man of Sin with Lucifers earthly form he will quite literally dwell in the earth . Hence, " The Beast out of the Earth". When you read Revelation you notice he is made center stage having two horns like a lamb - indicates false messiah. He comes to power from out of the earth and reigns from there because of the desolation that will be made of this earth.

 

[CrowCross]

So, you think the days mentioned in Genesis are what? A thousand year day as to one of God's days or a 24 hr day or something more?

No....A day is 24 hours. We can know it's not 1,000 years because of the words...evening and morning, day 1 etc.

Secondly the ten commandments also says the days were 24 hours long.

I find that people ...christians ....change the time period because they want it to fit in with Old Earth theology.

 

[Shulammite]

No....A day is 24 hours. We can know it's not 1,000 years because of the words...evening and morning, day 1 etc.

Secondly the ten commandments also says the days were 24 hours long.

I find that people ...christians ....change the time period because they want it to fit in with Old Earth theology.

Thanks for that. The Bible does not explicitly say that the day was 24 hours long. The Ten Commandments state that we should “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates” (Exodus 20:8-10). This commandment is a reminder that God created the world in six days and rested on the seventh day1. Clearly, we don't have a thousand-year day now, so it is applied according to what we do experience in this fallen flesh and world.

Genesis 1:
1In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2Now the earth was formless and void, (meaning nonexistent) and darkness was over the surface of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters.

3And God said, “Let there be light,”and there was light. 4And God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.”

And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

God created light first not the earth.

The Second Day

6And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters, to separate the waters from the waters.” 7So God made the firmament and separated the waters below the firmament from the waters above. And it was so. 8God called the expanse “sky.”

And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

Also, look at the wording- " and there was evening and morning the second day"I never said the sun burned for a straight 1000 yrs and or vice versa. Clearly, there was evening and morning in each thousand years.

The Third Day

9And God said, “Let the waters under the sky be gathered into one place, so that the dry land may appear.” And it was so. 10God called the dry land “earth,” and the gathering of waters He called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

11Then God said, “Let the earth bring forth vegetation: seed-bearing plants and fruit trees, each bearing fruit with seed according to its kind.” And it was so. 12The earth produced vegetation: seed-bearing plants according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

13And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

The Fourth Day

14And God said, “Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to distinguish between the day and the night, and let them be signs to mark the seasons and days and years. 15And let them serve as lights in the expanse of the sky to shine upon the earth.” And it was so.

16God made two great lights: the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. And He made the stars as well.

17God set these lights in the expanse of the sky to shine upon the earth, 18to preside over the day and the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good.

19And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

The Fifth Day

20And God said, “Let the waters teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth in the open expanse of the sky.” 21So God created the great sea creatures and every living thing that moves, with which the waters teemed according to their kinds, and every bird of flight after its kind. And God saw that it was good.

22Then God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the waters of the seas, and let birds multiply on the earth.”

23And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

The Sixth Day

24And God said, “Let the earth bring forth living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, land crawlers, and beasts of the earth according to their kinds.” And it was so. 25God made the beasts of the earth according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and everything that crawls upon the earth according to its kind. And God saw that it was good.

26Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness, to rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it.”

27So God created man in His own image;

in the image of God He created him;

male and female He created them.

28God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth.”

29Then God said, “Behold, I have given you every seed-bearing plant on the face of all the earth, and every tree whose fruit contains seed. They will be yours for food. 30And to every beast of the earth and every bird of the air and every creature that crawls upon the earth—everything that has the breath of life in it—I have given every green plant for food.” And it was so.

31And God looked upon all that He had made, and indeed, it was very good.

And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day.

 

[Shulammite]

Listen this isn't carved in stone yet. I am exhausting all avenues of view to see if they jive with the Word of God. I am putting forth my most convincing arguments for what I think. I am learning too. I will give my vote after all this ebb and flow of debate, which I would like to thank you all for but I want to give a strong argument to see if I could be right.

 

[Shulammite]

I do not mind being corrected I will love you for it.
Proverbs 9: The Way of Wisdom
…7He who corrects a mocker brings shame on himself; he who rebukes a wicked man taints himself. 8Do not rebuke a mocker, or he will hate you; rebuke a wise man, and he will love you. 9Instruct a wise man, and he will be wiser still; teach a righteous man, and he will increase his learning.…

 

[Carbon]

No....A day is 24 hours. We can know it's not 1,000 years because of the words...evening and morning, day 1 etc.

If that were the case people would not be believing in an old earth since the ECF’s. Should I trust your word over let’s say Augustine’s?

Secondly the ten commandments also says the days were 24 hours long.

Where?

I find that people ...christians ....change the time period because they want it to fit in with Old Earth theology.

Others find it different