Young Earth/Old Earth

[Shulammite]

I think God can make the earth in six days however, many years ago. Whether it is 10,000,000, years ago 100,000,000 yrs ago 50,000 yrs ago etc.... That doesn't mean the earth is 6,000 yrs. old. If a 'day' is as if one of God's days, it would have taken Him six thousand years from a human perspective, to make. That in itself would prove the young earth theorist wrong. I mean because it says on the 7th day He rested- that could be another 1,000 years. This is all hypothetical but is plausible because we do not know for sure the 'day' perspective. And I do not believe we have an age for the man-Adam exactly, as to when he ate the fruit because well, he was a full-grown man when designed. And he didn't eat it during the period when God rested, because clearly God rested.

I would say, there would be an unrest with man's fall if it happened during the time God was resting. So, we know for at least 2,000 yrs ( if a'day' is a1,000 yrs) passed that Adam and Eve were in the garden chilling. I believe he was intended to be eternal, so, his aging did not begin until his eyes were opened to his flesh. That would be the stepping off point for the measuring of life span and time as we know it.

So, let's say it took 7 days, each day is a thousand, from a human perspective concerning one of God's days- for all this to happen. He made man on the sixth day and somewhere in that 6,000th year he made Eve. He saw everything was good and then God rested on the 7 thousandth year.

Then after that rest, there was some rebellion amuck. We don't know how long after that day of rest that occurred. Because time did not apply to the flesh because death was not in the world. It wasn't until after Adam and Eve's eyes were opened that we begin the Age. I say that because with Christ's birth is the beginning of the End of the Age. We are at the End of time now because all the signs are there, however much longer that is. He is who ends sin and death which is only designated for a time.

I'm working all this out in my head because I did not decide yet. The Lord did say, knock and the door will be opened, seek and you shall find, ask and you shall receive. With that- Lord, is it old or young earth or something in between?

So, sometime after the 7,000th year of the earth did the fall happen imho. I think anywhere between 1000yrs to 5,000 yrs after that was the fall. So, in the 8,000-13,000th year. Because it would seem that we do not see another day of rest for God. So, I believe Adam and Eve lived anywhere between 1,000-6,000 yrs in peace in the garden. After which, with the fall time applied to man and Adam lived for 930 yrs in the flesh standard afterwards. So, add up the length of days of the biblical figures of the OT to Christ, then from that time to now, added to the estimated 8,000 to 13,000 yrs and we can get an idea of how old the earth is, imho. I hate math so I'll wait for someone more proficient at it to give an estimate. Oh! and I believe dinosaurs were on the earth with humans. I believe they were destroyed during the Great Deluge, imho. What say you? I'm open to other viewpoints.

 

[Sereni-tea]

Even many of the early church fathers believed in an old Earth.

Yes, Christians have held a range of views over the last 2,000 years. This article gives a bit of a run down before exploring the genre of Genesis 1. It is an interesting read.

 

[Shulammite]

After rereading my post and seeing how 6 is not the number of completion, I will say it was 6,000 yrs after God's rest that man fell. And he has not rested since from his labor and wrestling with the fallen angel ever since. I believe the earth was in existence then for 13,000 years. So, how many thousands of years from Adam to Christ to us add it to that. Anyone?

 

[Sereni-tea]

I think God can make the earth in six days however, many years ago. Whether it is 10,000,000, years ago 100,000,000 yrs ago 50,000 yrs ago etc.... That doesn't mean the earth is 6,000 yrs. old. If a 'day' is as if one of God's days, it would have taken Him six thousand years from a human perspective, to make. That in itself would prove the young earth theorist wrong. I mean because it says on the 7th day He rested- that could be another 1,000 years. This is all hypothetical but is plausible because we do not know for sure the 'day' perspective. And I do not believe we have an age for the man-Adam exactly, as to when he ate the fruit because well, he was a full-grown man when designed. And he didn't eat it during the period when God rested, because clearly God rested.

I would say, there would be an unrest with man's fall if it happened during the time God was resting. So, we know for at least 2,000 yrs ( if a'day' is a1,000 yrs) passed that Adam and Eve were in the garden chilling. I believe he was intended to be eternal, so, his aging did not begin until his eyes were opened to his flesh. That would be the stepping off point for the measuring of life span and time as we know it.

So, let's say it took 7 days, each day is a thousand, from a human perspective concerning one of God's days- for all this to happen. He made man on the sixth day and somewhere in that 6,000th year he made Eve. He saw everything was good and then God rested on the 7 thousandth year.

Then after that rest, there was some rebellion amuck. We don't know how long after that day of rest that occurred. Because time did not apply to the flesh because death was not in the world. It wasn't until after Adam and Eve's eyes were opened that we begin the Age. I say that because with Christ's birth is the beginning of the End of the Age. We are at the End of time now because all the signs are there, however much longer that is. He is who ends sin and death which is only designated for a time.

I'm working all this out in my head because I did not decide yet. The Lord did say, knock and the door will be opened, seek and you shall find, ask and you shall receive. With that- Lord, is it old or young earth or something in between?

So, sometime after the 7,000th year of the earth did the fall happen imho. I think anywhere between 1000yrs to 5,000 yrs after that was the fall. So, in the 8,000-13,000th year. Because it would seem that we do not see another day of rest for God. So, I believe Adam and Eve lived anywhere between 1,000-6,000 yrs in peace in the garden. After which, with the fall time applied to man and Adam lived for 930 yrs in the flesh standard afterwards. So, add up the length of days of the biblical figures of the OT to Christ, then from that time to now, added to the estimated 8,000 to 13,000 yrs and we can get an idea of how old the earth is, imho. I hate math so I'll wait for someone more proficient at it to give an estimate. Oh! and I believe dinosaurs were on the earth with humans. I believe they were destroyed during the Great Deluge, imho. What say you? I'm open to other viewpoints.

We should be careful when interpreting Scripture to take into account the literary, cultural and theological context of the passage. When we do this we see that the text is more concerned with God ordering His creation and assigning roles and functions. The passage stands in direct contrast to other ancient near eastern literature showing showing the superiority of God over other near eastern 'gods' and the special role of humanity in God's purposes.

The creation account in Genesis 1 should not be viewed as an historic narrative and we shouldn't assume that a God day is equivalent to 1000 of our years. While the Bible does say: to God a day is like 1000 years and 1000 years is like a day, we should see this as a comment about God being outside of time. So I don't think trying to use the Bible to come up with a number for the age of the earth is all that helpful.

When the Bible talks about God resting, it isn't referring to him doing nothing, or taking a break, but rather it is about God ruling His creation. He has completing the task of ordering creation to suit His purposes and is now enthroned as Ruler.

I believe that the Bible says nothing about the age of the earth and as such either a young earth or an old earth viewpoint is compatible. However I do believe that science shows overwhelmingly that the earth and the universe is very old.

I believe that the flood is a re-creation event told in a manner showing the cosmic significance of what is happening, but conveying theological truth, rather than anything scientific.

Just my viewpoint for what it's worth.

 

[Shulammite]

We should be careful when interpreting Scripture to take into account the literary, cultural and theological context of the passage. When we do this we see that the text is more concerned with God ordering His creation and assigning roles and functions. The passage stands in direct contrast to other ancient near eastern literature showing showing the superiority of God over other near eastern 'gods' and the special role of humanity in God's purposes.

The creation account in Genesis 1 should not be viewed as an historic narrative and we shouldn't assume that a God day is equivalent to 1000 of our years. While the Bible does say: to God a day is like 1000 years and 1000 years is like a day, we should see this as a comment about God being outside of time. So I don't think trying to use the Bible to come up with a number for the age of the earth is all that helpful.

When the Bible talks about God resting, it isn't referring to him doing nothing, or taking a break, but rather it is about God ruling His creation. He has completing the task of ordering creation to suit His purposes and is now enthroned as Ruler.

I believe that the Bible says nothing about the age of the earth and as such either a young earth or an old earth viewpoint is compatible. However I do believe that science shows overwhelmingly that the earth and the universe is very old.

I believe that the flood is a re-creation event told in a manner showing the cosmic significance of what is happening, but conveying theological truth, rather than anything scientific.

Just my viewpoint for what it's worth.

Lol! " So I don't think trying to use the Bible to come up with a number for the age of the earth is all that helpful."
( Tell that to the Creator and Author).
There is no better way to find out the age of the earth than to go to God's written word left us from the one who created the earth. With that, how 'bout this;
Proverbs 1:6
The Beginning of Knowledge
…5let the wise listen and gain instruction, and the discerning acquire wise counsel 6by understanding the proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise. 7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.…

Genesis 3:
8And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

See! right in the beginning, Genesis has riddles. The "cool of the day" means just before the day of rest. And yes! The 6 days of creation and rest are the 7 days according to God's Day. So, it wasn't until the next 6,000 years that AGE came into the realm for Adam and Eve. And God's word is Bond. The earth was as I said 13,000 years old at the fall. The Lord's Day of rest didn't come as things began to wind down just before it at the "cool of the day".

Funny how some people think the Bible should not be used to figure out those matters of God when He is the Author of Life and we know that because He left us a book, You know, Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth.

 

[Sereni-tea]

Lol! " So I don't think trying to use the Bible to come up with a number for the age of the earth is all that helpful."
( Tell that to the Creator and Author).
There is no better way to find out the age of the earth than to go to God's written word left us from the one who created the earth. With that, how 'bout this;
Proverbs 1:6
The Beginning of Knowledge
…5let the wise listen and gain instruction, and the discerning acquire wise counsel 6by understanding the proverbs and parables, the sayings and riddles of the wise. 7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.…

Genesis 3:
8And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and the man and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God among the trees of the garden.

See! right in the beginning, Genesis has riddles. The "cool of the day" means just before the day of rest. And yes! The 6 days of creation and rest are the 7 days according to God's Day. So, it wasn't until the next 6,000 years that AGE came into the realm for Adam and Eve. And God's word is Bond. The earth was as I said 13,000 years old at the fall. The Lord's Day of rest didn't come as things began to wind down just before it at the "cool of the day".

Funny how some people think the Bible should not be used to figure out those matters of God when He is the Author of Life and we know that because He left us a book, You know, Basic Instruction Before Leaving Earth.

I think the Bible should be used in the way it was intended and understood in its context.

 

[Shulammite]

I think the Bible should be used in the way it was intended and understood in its context.

How is God's holy written word " intended". I'm all ears

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

I think God can make the earth in six days however, many years ago. Whether it is 10,000,000, years ago 100,000,000 yrs ago 50,000 yrs ago etc.... That doesn't mean the earth is 6,000 yrs. old. If a 'day' is as if one of God's days, it would have taken Him six thousand years from a human perspective, to make.

Only by changing the Laws of Nature. But why would God need to do that? He lives in all time at once, He lives in the past, present and future, so why would God need to change the Laws of nature to hurry up the process? The Speed of light proves the earth has been in existence for a long time. I think I will copy and past my crude Creation blog I did on an Atheist site to try and give them a general idea of how God could have created the Universe over a long period of time.

 

[Sereni-tea]

How is God's holy written word " intended". I'm all ears

The Bible conveys theological truth; it is not intended to be a scientific textbook.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

The question of the Thread was this below (BOLDED): My goal is to reach souls, so yes I go to atheist sites to chat.

Do you believe that the Earth is 4.5 billion years old according to science, or 6000 years old according to the Bible?

I as a 30 year Christian try to think outside the box of normality. Is the universe 6000 years old? Is the universe 13.7 billion years old? Do these two questions clash or is there a translation barrier !! This is how I think. I try to bring both poles of thought towards each other starting with the facts. We know the universe has to be over 6000 years old because we see light from stars that are millions of light years away, so we would have to be a wee bit naive to think the universe is only 6000 years old.

Onward to what Genesis says about creation, does it really say the universe or earth is 6000 years old? I don’t think it does, I think its a mistranslation of a primitive language that had only around 4000 words at the time Genesis was written, whereas the English language has 500,000 words. So many of the Hebrew words were used in multiple ways. For instance the original meaning of the Hebrew word YOWM (Day) means “to be hot” and there are at least 50 other meanings listed in Strong’s concordance’s lexicon of Hebrew words. A year, a month, a period of time, chronicles, evening and morning (Beginning and end), age, perpetually, long, some time, whole, X required season, continually etc. etc., well you get the point.

YOWM or “To be hot”, what would this mean and why was it used since God is supposed to have given Moses the first five books of the Torah. Well when the universe was spoken into existence by God, it took 400 million years for the first stars to form. So the first day (to be hot) was the evening (Darkness, 400 million years of darkness) and the morning ( the stars started forming) and the first day was a “period of time” and in my opinion it lasted from 13.7 billion B.C. until 4.5 Billion B.C. (9.2 Billion years) when the sun & earth were formed. So lets take a second and look at the Bible and the WMAP research and see if this matches.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

Now look below at the Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) which launched in 2001 and won many awards, they mapped the whole universe out with radar. Below as we see, you had Quantum Fluctuations which I contend is God just outside our universe, then you had inflation, followed by afterglow, followed by 400 MILLION YEARS of Darkness !! Just like the bible says in verse 2, and there was Darkness on the Face of the Deep !! Gods word is perfect, it is us who are confused. DARK AGES Mapped out by the WMAP, followed by what? The first stars forming at the 400 million year mark. Verse three says what? and God said “Let there be light” God is right again. We are looking at creation from Gods point of view, no man was there of course and with God he is not subject to time, he created time for us via this universe, but He is eternal and thus was never created. Remember the verse, a thousand years is like a day and a day like unto a thousand years unto God. In other words God lives in the past, present and future all at the same time.

So we had the big bang, followed by inflation, followed by cosmic microwave background where after 375,000 years loose electrons cool enough to combine with protons. The universe becomes transparent to light. The microwave background begins to shine. Then the dark ages/clouds of dark hydrogen gas cool and coalesce.

The first stars appear….gas clouds collapse, the fusion of Stars begin, the first of which appears at about 400 million years after the big bang. So, when the bible says Darkness was on the face of the deep, God knew exactly what was happening in the very beginning !! The more we look for the answers, the more that science and the bible will converge, if both sides with differing viewpoints would only take their blinders off.

The second day (period of time) of course would be from the earth & the suns formation until the grasses and trees came forth on the third day (period of time) then on the fourth day it seems God set the seasons or placed the moon in its perfect orbit where our seasons are not strange, but orderly, I know the moon and earth is supposed to have collided. Anyway, that set the seasons, times, years etc. etc. Mind you, all of these ideas are rudimentary observations. A theory of how the things God says in His holy word and science can both be factual. They are not meant to imply everything went down just so and in like manner, the dates and timings thereof of course are guesstimates, I wasn’t there.

On the fifth day God created the sea animals/birds and what not, were the Dinos created here or with the land animals? The fifth day lasted 300 to 400 million years or so. On the sixth day around 300–350 million B.C. God created the land animals. During this period of time the Dinosaurs became extinct about 70 million years ago. Then during this “TIME PERIOD” (6th day) God decided to create man 6000 or so years ago. Some might protest that men have been around much longer, but I offer this up, where is the data? Men are record keepers and we don’t have proof of men going back much further at all. Now as per “MEN” being observed by scientists to have been around for X Number of years, I never said animal like men weren’t around, I stated "human beings" were created 6000 or so years ago, when God placed His spirit in us and thus we became immortal in that our souls can not die. We were at that point in time “Created in Gods Image”. The other fossils and bones mean nothing, because scientists have no way of testing for God imparting His spirit into mankind and creating “human beings” with powerful intellects.

On the seventh day God rested, which only means He ceased creating the Heavens, Earth, Mankind and Animals. So when we see stars and galaxies created today, it was ordered forth 13.7 billion years ago. So its not necessarily either or. We need to start looking at things with an open mind, be we an atheist or a Christian.

P.S. Just something to think about. Einstein’s theory of relativity is in the very first verse of the bible, relatively speaking…LOL.

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning (TIME) God created the heavens(SPACE) and the earth(MATTER).
-----------------------------------------------
Admittedly it is rudimentary, but I thought the logistics out pretty well. Both science and Religion should agree because science is simply a journey from the unknown to the known, and God (SMILE) knows it all.

I posted this on Quora, it seems to want to link there also, hope my edit fixed it.

 

[Shulammite]

Only by changing the Laws of Nature. But why would God need to do that? He lives in all time at once, He lives in the past, present and future, so why would God need to change the Laws of nature to hurry up the process? The Speed of light proves the earth has been in existence for a long time. I think I will copy and past my crude Creation blog I did on an Atheist site to try and give them a general idea of how God could have created the Universe over a long period of time.

Lol! He is before nature is. "Change the Laws of Nature"??? You think as men think not as God thinks. He made nature, He's not held by the constraints of it, we are based on the fall.

Speed of light proves the earth has been in existence for a long time". I believe it is older than most creationist therory. You think it is even older than I think and that is simply based off your perception of time and space from a fallen nature. Hence, why one of our human days seems so short and one of God's days so long. It's all perception based on placement.

Your first statement contradicts your second because nature and it's laws were established by God. God is not held by our preception of time. And our perseption of time after the fall makes everything appear more distant because of the contraints of the flesh. Prior to that man's consciousness had no restraints as far as eternal perception. Hence, why scripture says "these are few days amongst the days of eternity". And what is faster than the speed of light- the spirit.

Our very thoughts are faster. Point, what would take man to reach say, Mars to a spirit being - angel, heavenly or fallen-only takes an instant. They travel at the speed of thought - spirit.

" Heaven is my throne, earth My footstool" Heaven is beyond the space between us and it . Step out of the gates of heaven and you have a space between it and us. Heaven is at the end of the universe and it is the universes beginning. Hence, " I am the beginning and the end. We travel toward heaven once the soul is released and that is a speed faster than light. That is why when passing through it, it looks like a bright tunnel or staircase. The points of light of the universe's luminaries look like they are all connected. Physics proves this right based off the laws of velocity and friction. There is friction that affects human velocity in what we build to travel in. This is not a law that affects the spirit.

I'll read your work. But just because you disagree with my perspective doesn't mean it's incorrect, you are just simply so sure that yours is right. Blessings.

 

[Shulammite]

Oh, and I do believe the universe is continously expanding. We don't perceive it due to the mass and volume of it. That is why points of light seem so distant. God being the first mover, everything expands out from Him in heaven from His Throne. It continously expands based on the size of the mover. The universe's size is relative to it's Designer's grandness. He being Eternal explains the vastness of it. Because the universe is continuously expanding, points of light from stars reach us at a speed based on the relative design and movement of the ever expanding universe. Think of the universe like an escalator in which straps are attatched to the railings holding the planetary bodies in place as the universe expands . You will always see the point of origin of the luminaries like that. They being held stationary by gravity, the escalator or veil moves ever forward. Man has to build things to travel faster than the escalator to reach certain points, plus defy gravity, an atmosphere and friction.

The spirit is how the soul gets to heaven, by traveling faster than the ever expanding universe. Man could never build anything to reach there the physical could never travel up that escalator faster than it expands. Well that's my take.

 

[Shulammite]

The Bible conveys theological truth; it is not intended to be a scientific textbook.

Well it is science too, true science. There has to be science in it or there would be no checks and balances. Your statement denotes that God is debased when it comes to the mechanism of His own creation. You imply that science is beyond God and is its own construct. One only needs to know the hidden messages of scripture to know God explains the inner working
of His own creation before man could examine anything. I'll prove that with the scriptures .There is nothing that man could discover or do to say "hey look I found something new" it existed before man could know anything and was known by those before you. There is nothing new under the sun. Don't put science before God that would be to worship the creature over the Creator. The horse goes before the cart not the other way around.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

Lol! He is before nature is. "Change the Laws of Nature"??? You think as men think not as God thinks. He made nature, He's not held by the constraints of it, we are based on the fall.

I think you missed my overall point. A lot of people say the Universe/Earth is only 6000 years old, when I point out the Laws of Nature says different, as in we see light from Stars billions of years away they say, (I thought everyone knew their rebut) well God is God, He can just do as He so pleases, he he chance all of the "constants" in creation, then can switch back, thus my point is why does an eternal God living in ALL TIME need to hurry up creation? He lives in the finished product as soon as He orders Creation. They say, well the Speed of Light used to be different blah blah blah.

God fine tuned the Universe with a particular set of Laws we know as the Laws of Nature like the Speed of Light. As a matter of fact if matter the size of one more grain of sand had been present at the big bang, this universe would have never have come into existence. An argument by atheist is if we are the only being in existence why is the universe so big? Well, Richard Deem, a Christian scientist shows why the universe had to be this size, he talks about how because of thermodynamics if the universe had been any bigger or smaller it would have collapsed on itself and going the other direction it would have been mostly gaseous with nor rocky (planets) formations I forget which direction causes which result).

Speed of light proves the earth has been in existence for a long time". I believe it is older than most creationist therory. You think it is even older than I think and that is simply based off your perception of time and space from a fallen nature. Hence, why one of our human days seems so short and one of God's days so long. It's all perception based on placement.

That is the thing, if you rea post # 440, bottom of the previous page for me, you will understand that YOWM does not man "DAY" per se, its a Period of Time and then the description is added in giving us the understanding, it is used for month, day, year, 2 years, evermore, perpetual, X WHOLE etc. etc. Our fallen nature happened after creation, and we had nothing to do with creation anyway. The Laws of Nature (which simply means the laws God applied as evidence, to create the universe) are what they are. God lives outside of time, He created the Space Time Continuum for us. So, there is no time where God is from, ese He would need to have been created.

Your first statement contradicts your second because nature and it's laws were established by God. God is not held by our preception of time. And our perseption of time after the fall makes everything appear more distant because of the contraints of the flesh. Prior to that man's consciousness had no restraints as far as eternal perception. Hence, why scripture says "these are few days amongst the days of eternity". And what is faster than the speed of light- the spirit.

No, that is m y point, the Laws of Nature God created the universe with would have to have been different from what they actually are, if not the universe ha to be 13.7 billion years old. That has zero to do with flesh, we can measure all of the constants. For instance the five constants: the speed of light in vacuum, c; the Planck constant, h; the elementary charge, e; the Avogadro constant, NA; and the Boltzmann constant, kB, have known exact numerical values when expressed in SI units as in:

The Five Primary Constants

They include the velocity of light in vacuum (c); the charge of the electron, the absolute value of which is the fundamental unit of electric charge (e); the mass of the electron (me); Planck's constant (h); and the fine-structure constant, symbolized by the Greek letter alpha. These will all be considered in detail below.

But I will just list all of the constants below

Speed of light in a vacuum 299 792 458 m/s
Planck constant 6.626 070 15 x 10-34 J s
Newtonian gravitational constant 6.674 30 x 10-11 m3 kg-1 s-2
Avogadro constant 6.022 140 76 x 1023 mol-1
Fine structure constant 7.297 352 5693 x 10-3
Stefan-Boltzman constant 5.670 374 419 x 10-8 W m-2 K-4
Faraday constant 96 485.332 12 C mol-1
Molar mass of Carbon-12 11.999 999 9958 x 10-3 mol-1
Vacuum electric permittivity 8.854 187 8128 x 10-12 F m-1
Vacuum magnetic permittivity 1.256 637 062 12 N A-2
Elementary charge 1.602 176 634 x 10-19 C
Boltzman constant 1.380 649 x 10-23 J K-1

-------------------------------------------------
So, these all have mathematical equations we can measure, thus the universe has to be 13.7 billion yeas old according to all of the data unless God changed the "Laws of Nature" or the physical constants, its simple math, either it adds up or it doesn't. In order for the universe not to be 13.7 years old God would have had to change these constants He used to create the universe with, and since God lives in al time, why would He need to do that, as soon as He spoke creation is was finished in His realm, not in our realm. So, God had zero reason to change them. That is the point.

Our very thoughts are faster. Point, what would take man to reach say, Mars to a spirit being - angel, heavenly or fallen-only takes an instant. They travel at the speed of thought - spirit.

The time travel of heavenly beings does not change the laws of the "Seed of Light". Ty probably travel through worm holes, but that is not relevant unto the Speed of Light being a constant, it is what it is.

" Heaven is my throne, earth My footstool" Heaven is beyond the space between us and it . Step out of the gates of heaven and you have a space between it and us. Heaven is at the end of the universe and it is the universes beginning. Hence, " I am the beginning and the end. We travel toward heaven once the soul is released and that is a speed faster than light. That is why when passing through it, it looks like a bright tunnel or staircase. The points of light of the universe's luminaries look like they are all connected. Physics proves this right based off the laws of velocity and friction. There is friction that affects human velocity in what we build to travel in. This is not a law that affects the spirit.

I'll read your work. But just because you disagree with my perspective doesn't mean it's incorrect, you are just simply so sure that yours is right. Blessings.

The Laws of Nature mandates a 13.7 billion old universe, OR God changed the Laws of Nature. Now I need to know why a God living in ALL TIME needed to change His brilliant Laws of Nature (constants). He doesn't need to.

 

[Inertia]

Lol! He is before nature is. "Change the Laws of Nature"??? You think as men think not as God thinks. He made nature, He's not held by the constraints of it, we are based on the fall.

....

Hi Shulammite.

Based on my own understanding, my experience and my observations, it's clear to me that God fine-tuned the universe to ensure that sentient intelligent technically advanced beings made in His image could thrive and build a relationship with Him. For instance, if I prayed earnestly for my grass on my lawn not to grow so that I will not have to mow it, God is more than able to cause this to occur. However, because he engineered our world to operate by His standards, the answer to my prayer most likely will be no.

God also made a promise about His creation.

"But I, the LORD, make the following promise: I have made a covenant governing the coming of day and night. I have established the fixed laws governing heaven and earth." (Jeremiah 33:25)

______
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[Shulammite]

I think you missed my overall point. A lot of people say the Universe/Earth is only 6000 years old, when I point out the Laws of Nature says different, as in we see light from Stars billions of years away they say, (I thought everyone knew their rebut) well God is God, He can just do as He so pleases, he he chance all of the "constants" in creation, then can switch back, thus my point is why does an eternal God living in ALL TIME need to hurry up creation? He lives in the finished product as soon as He orders Creation. They say, well the Speed of Light used to be different blah blah blah.

God fine tuned the Universe with a particular set of Laws we know as the Laws of Nature like the Speed of Light. As a matter of fact if matter the size of one more grain of sand had been present at the big bang, this universe would have never have come into existence. An argument by atheist is if we are the only being in existence why is the universe so big? Well, Richard Deem, a Christian scientist shows why the universe had to be this size, he talks about how because of thermodynamics if the universe had been any bigger or smaller it would have collapsed on itself and going the other direction it would have been mostly gaseous with nor rocky (planets) formations I forget which direction causes which result).


That is the thing, if you rea post # 440, bottom of the previous page for me, you will understand that YOWM does not man "DAY" per se, its a Period of Time and then the description is added in giving us the understanding, it is used for month, day, year, 2 years, evermore, perpetual, X WHOLE etc. etc. Our fallen nature happened after creation, and we had nothing to do with creation anyway. The Laws of Nature (which simply means the laws God applied as evidence, to create the universe) are what they are. God lives outside of time, He created the Space Time Continuum for us. So, there is no time where God is from, ese He would need to have been created.


No, that is m y point, the Laws of Nature God created the universe with would have to have been different from what they actually are, if not the universe ha to be 13.7 billion years old. That has zero to do with flesh, we can measure all of the constants. For instance the five constants: the speed of light in vacuum, c; the Planck constant, h; the elementary charge, e; the Avogadro constant, NA; and the Boltzmann constant, kB, have known exact numerical values when expressed in SI units as in:

The Five Primary Constants

They include the velocity of light in vacuum (c); the charge of the electron, the absolute value of which is the fundamental unit of electric charge (e); the mass of the electron (me); Planck's constant (h); and the fine-structure constant, symbolized by the Greek letter alpha. These will all be considered in detail below.

But I will just list all of the constants below

Speed of light in a vacuum 299 792 458 m/s
Planck constant 6.626 070 15 x 10-34 J s
Newtonian gravitational constant 6.674 30 x 10-11 m3 kg-1 s-2
Avogadro constant 6.022 140 76 x 1023 mol-1
Fine structure constant 7.297 352 5693 x 10-3
Stefan-Boltzman constant 5.670 374 419 x 10-8 W m-2 K-4
Faraday constant 96 485.332 12 C mol-1
Molar mass of Carbon-12 11.999 999 9958 x 10-3 mol-1
Vacuum electric permittivity 8.854 187 8128 x 10-12 F m-1
Vacuum magnetic permittivity 1.256 637 062 12 N A-2
Elementary charge 1.602 176 634 x 10-19 C
Boltzman constant 1.380 649 x 10-23 J K-1

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So, these all have mathematical equations we can measure, thus the universe has to be 13.7 billion yeas old according to all of the data unless God changed the "Laws of Nature" or the physical constants, its simple math, either it adds up or it doesn't. In order for the universe not to be 13.7 years old God would have had to change these constants He used to create the universe with, and since God lives in al time, why would He need to do that, as soon as He spoke creation is was finished in His realm, not in our realm. So, God had zero reason to change them. That is the point.


The time travel of heavenly beings does not change the laws of the "Seed of Light". Ty probably travel through worm holes, but that is not relevant unto the Speed of Light being a constant, it is what it is.


The Laws of Nature mandates a 13.7 billion old universe, OR God changed the Laws of Nature. Now I need to know why a God living in ALL TIME needed to change His brilliant Laws of Nature (constants). He doesn't need to.

Thanks! A lot to delve into there . Appreciate your input.

 

[Shulammite]

Hi Shulammite.

Based on my own understanding, my experience and my observations, it's clear to me that God fine-tuned the universe to ensure that sentient intelligent technically advanced beings made in His image could thrive and build a relationship with Him. For instance, if I prayed earnestly for my grass on my lawn not to grow so that I will not have to mow it, God is more than able to cause this to occur. However, because he engineered our world to operate by His standards, the answer to my prayer most likely will be no.

God also made a promise about His creation.

"But I, the LORD, make the following promise: I have made a covenant governing the coming of day and night. I have established the fixed laws governing heaven and earth." (Jeremiah 33:25)

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Love Jeremiah

 

[Inertia]

Well it is science too, true science. There has to be science in it or there would be no checks and balances. Your statement denotes that God is debased when it comes to the mechanism of His own creation. You imply that science is beyond God and is its own construct. One only needs to know the hidden messages of scripture to know God explains the inner working
of His own creation before man could examine anything. I'll prove that with the scriptures .There is nothing that man could discover or do to say "hey look I found something new" it existed before man could know anything and was known by those before you. There is nothing new under the sun. Don't put science before God that would be to worship the creature over the Creator. The horse goes before the cart not the other way around.

Indeed. Believing that that science can explain all phenomena and supply humankind’s quest to answer all questions is scientism. This belief is a sin and it ignores valid critical thinking principles. Boundary conditions are also a component of obtaining understanding.

God supplies us with direction about this.

"Get wisdom, get understanding; do not forget my words or turn away from them.
Do not forsake wisdom, and she will protect you; love her, and she will watch over you.

The beginning of wisdom is this: Get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding.
Cherish her, and she will exalt you; embrace her, and she will honor you.

She will give you a garland to grace your head and present you with a glorious crown.”

(Proverbs 4:5-9 )
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[Inertia]

Made in His image

Sentient intelligent technologically advanced - producers of music - capable of employing highly abstract concepts to help us understand how God engineered His creation

Other living things - not so much.

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[Shulammite]

Made in His image

View attachment 322

Sentient intelligent technologically advanced - producers of music - capable of employing highly abstract concepts to help us understand how God engineered His creation

Other living things - not so much.

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And the primate?