Young Earth/Old Earth

[Carbon]

Its an old earth, YOWM simply means time period. I have a concise old blog on this, but it has a picture, can we post images here? Thanks. I explain every step, but of course in an analytical manner.

YOM actually has 4 meanings

 

[Carbon]

Well, in the beginning, God, created the heavens and the earth.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1.

Hence: the heavens and the earth are, Created.

And after these were created, this is what we have.

The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Gen 1:2.

Can we assume the earth was covered with water?
I also believe according to the context, it wasn't a finished state, and God went to work forming it with His hands.

 

[Carbon]

Well, in the beginning, God, created the heavens and the earth.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1.

Hence: the heavens and the earth are, Created.

And after these were created, this is what we have.

The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Gen 1:2.

Can we assume the earth was covered with water?
I also believe according to the context, it wasn't a finished state, and God went to work forming it with His hands.

Since the heavens and earth were created in verse 1. And we start verse 2 with the Spirit hovering over the surface of the waters; it is from this position (hovering over the surface of the waters) that we should observe from.

We also know the earth was covered with water.

You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains. Psalm 104:6.

 

[Carbon]

Since the heavens and earth were created in verse 1. And we start verse 2 with the Spirit hovering over the surface of the waters; it is from this position (hovering over the surface of the waters) that we should observe from.

We also know the earth was covered with water.

You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
the waters stood above the mountains. Psalm 104:6.

In Job, it refers to, at this point, the darkness and the water.

when I made clouds its garment
and thick darkness its swaddling band, Job 38:9.

It seems that the earth's surface was dark because of the cloud coverage. A firmament below and above. I can see it as dark because no light could pass through the earth's atmosphere.

 

[Carbon]

In Job, it refers to, at this point, the darkness and the water.

when I made clouds its garment
and thick darkness its swaddling band, Job 38:9.

It seems that the earth's surface was dark because of the cloud coverage. A firmament below and above. I can see it as dark because no light could pass through the earth's atmosphere.

I think it's easy to see God at work in His creation, all the way up until He created man and then rested on the 7 th day. Why not God must enjoy creating, He even called it good. And we can see His glory in it. Piece by piece, day by day.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

Well, in the beginning, God, created the heavens and the earth.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1.

Hence: the heavens and the earth are, Created.

And after these were created, this is what we have.

The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Gen 1:2.

Can we assume the earth was covered with water?
I also believe according to the context, it wasn't a finished state, and God went to work forming it with His hands.

Actually we are getting a play by play from God via the creation account, no one else was there right? So, when God says in the beginning he is merely telling us He ordered creation to go forth, and thus the earth being without form and void means it is not in existence yet, it took 400 million years for the first stars to form, that is why in vs. 2 where it says Darkness was on the face of the deep, it means just that. Also, when God says He moved on the face of the waters, THEN He says let there be light, it conforms to logic. Sunlight comes unto us in a straight beam, our atmosphere traps moisture, therefore the sunbeams are refracted/reflected and that lights up our whole world (well, half at a time) just outside our atmosphere if one takes notice, it gets much, much darker or dimmer.

Then a lot of people say look at day 4, that is when the "sunlight really came", but that is not what it means, the moon and earth was pretty much the same size, they crashed into each other, our earth got the bulk of the mass and we captured a "Satellite" that gives us our weather patterns/Seasons/Days and nights etc. etc. By looking at the WMAP Satellite Map that mapped out the universe with Radar, we can see all of this, that darkness lasted for 400 million years before stars started to form.

Think about creation in this manner, God "Rested on the 7th day" right? Well, the universe is still expanding, new stars still form, new galaxies still form, so from God's POV, he commanded creation, and He then lives in the end product as soon as He orders it forth because He live in all time at once, so everything is not only present and future tense with God, but past tense. He created time for us, but time does not restrain God.

 

[Carbon]

Actually we are getting a play by play from God via the creation account, no one else was there right? So, when God says in the beginning he is merely telling us He ordered creation to go forth, and thus the earth being without form and void means it is not in existence yet,

It reads, In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1. That works for me.
The next thing we read is, The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Gen 1:2.

So, after creating the universe and earth, He went to work designing it. Obviously, earth was in existence or the Spirit would not be hovering over the waters.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

It reads, In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1. That works for me.
The next thing we read is, The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Gen 1:2.

So, after creating the universe and earth, He went to work designing it. Obviously, earth was in existence or the Spirit would not be hovering over the waters.

No, that is what VOID MEANS look it up, empty NOT THERE. Without form also means it is not there yet. The Universe is 13.7 billion years old.

 

[Carbon]

No, that is what VOID MEANS look it up, empty NOT THERE. Without form also means it is not there yet. The Universe is 13.7 billion years old.

Do you realize how small the Hebrew language is? Very small. Many words are used for a variety of things. The English language has a few million words.


And it is always the context that proves what the word means.

 

[Inertia]

Well, in the beginning, God, created the heavens and the earth.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Gen 1:1.

Hence: the heavens and the earth are, Created.

Indeed. This is God's brief description of the initial event. The time required to complete this first creation event is unstated and in Hebrew the initial conditions were completed - perfectly.

And after these were created, this is what we have.

The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. Gen 1:2.

Can we assume the earth was covered with water?

Yes, and it was deep water, consistent with Job 38:8-11 about the foundations of the Earth.

This next sentence, Genesis 1:2, changes the paradigm away from the heavens (the universe and Earth's atmosphere) shifting a new focus on the initial conditions of the Earth. It is syntactically linked with Genesis 1:1 with the word "earth" supplying background conditions for the reading audience. ( In Hebrew the word translated as "earth" means dirt, earthenware, dust,...depending on the context. We currently use the term Earth to mean planet Earth. An ancient Hebrew person didn't have a planetary model in mind. )

What's really interesting here is that we now have evidence of these initial conditions. See ---- > Deep water-covered planet

I also believe according to the context, it wasn't a finished state, and God went to work forming it with His hands.

In Hebrew, the event described in Genesis 1:2 is also completed work prior to His work on the first 'day' that begins with: " And God said..."

Afterward all of God's days begin with "And God said..."

________
.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

Do you realize how small the Hebrew language is? Very small. Many words are used for a variety of things. The English language has a few million words.


And it is always the context that proves what the word means.

Yes, I do deep dives in my studies. I did an Exegesis on Daniel 11 & 12 where I name every player in Dan. 11 and explain each verse. I did a deep dive on Creation, and when I got push back on the word YOWM meaning something other than "Day" I showed the naysayers how the Hebrew was used, and told them the old Hebrew from that time had 4000 words and no vowels of course, whilst the English has 500,000 words at a minimum.

God used numbers therefore in was people today do not understand. The number 6 = Man, 7 = Divine Completion, the number 8 = New Beginnings, 10 = Completion, 12 = Fulness etc. So, when God tells us about a 7 Headed 10 Horned Beast the 10 = Complete Europe reunited, not the whole world. When God states he has saved Himself 7000 men he is keeping the number from enemies and Satan, its really just a code, as in Divine Completion x Completion, or 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 7000. Likewise the 144,000 in Rev. 7 are a code just like the Woman in Rev. 12, it means Fulness x Completion or ALL Israel who repent as in 12 x 12 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 144,000. The true number or ratio can be seen in Zech. 13:8-9 where we see that 1/3 of all Israel repents, therefore around 5 million Jews will repent at the end time, and thus the 144,000 the 7000 and the 1/3 can all be correct.

I agree about context, when guy named Mike sent me a private message challenging how the day could ever been considered anything other than a day, I replied with a ready made study I had done for my research. It was indeed handy. Probably will not fit here so I will add it directly below. Just food for thought.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

Hi Mike, no worries, I just know you can't be in a discussion when someone's trying to mandate the meaning of words. I like the KJV but I am not bound to any version per se. Allow me to first show what I mean as per how the word is used in various ways, then we can go from there.

#3117 יוֹם yowm {yome}

from an unused root meaning TO BE HOT; TWOT - 852; n m
—Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)

1) day, time, year
1a) day (as opposed to night)
1b) day (24 hour period)
1b1) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1
1b2) AS A DIVISION OF TIME
1b2a) a working day, a day's journey
1c) days, lifetime (pl.)
1d) TIME, PERIOD (general)
1e) year
1f) temporal references
1f1) today
1f2) yesterday
1f3) tomorrow
—Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)

From an unused root meaning TO BE HOT; a day (as the WARM HOURS), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a SPACE OF TIME defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially):—age, + ALWAYS, + CHRONICLES, CONTINUALLY (-ance), daily, ([birth-], each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), + elder, X end, + evening, + (for) ever (-lasting, -more), X FULL, life, as (so) long as (. . . live), (even) now, + old, + outlived, + perpetually, presently, + remaineth, X REQUIRED, season, X since, space, then, (process of) time, + as at other times, + in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), X whole (+ age), (full) year (-ly), + younger.
—Strong's (Hebrew & Chaldee Dictionary of the Old Testament)

#3117.
יוֹם
yom (398a); a prim. root; day:—
NASB - afternoon*(1), age(8), age*(1), all(1), always*(14), amount*(2), battle(1), birthday*(1), Chronicles*(38), completely*(1), continually*(14), course*(1), daily(22), daily the days(1), day(1115), day of the days(1), day that the period(1), day's(6), day's every day(1), daylight*(1), days(635), days on the day(1), days to day(1), days you shall daily(1), days ago(1), days'(11), each(1), each day(4), entire(2), eternity(1), evening*(1), ever in your life*(1), every day(2), fate(1), first(5), forever*(11), forevermore*(1), full(5), full year(1), future*(1), holiday*(3), later*(2), length(1), life(12), life*(1), lifetime(2), lifetime*(1), live(1), long(2), long as i live(1), long*(11), midday*(1), now(5), older*(1), once(2), period(3), perpetually*(2), present(1), recently(1), reigns(1), ripe*(1), short-lived*(1), so long*(1), some time(1), survived*(2), time(45), time*(1), times*(2), today(172), today*(1), usual(1), very old*(1), when(10), when the days(1), whenever(1), while(3), whole(2), year(10), yearly(5), years(13), yesterday*(1).
—NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries

AV - day 2008, time 64, chronicles + H1697 37, daily 32, ever 17,
year 14, continually 10, when 10, as 10, while 8, full 8
always 4, whole 4, alway 4, misc 44; 2274

-----------------------------------------------------

Some examples where this word is used in a different way: Notice it's always used as a period of time of some sort.

2 Kings 17:37 And the statutes, and the ordinances, and the law, and the commandment, which he wrote for you, ye shall observe to do for evermore(YOWM); and ye shall not fear other gods.

Genesis 4:3 And in process of time(YOWM) it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting(YOWM).

Ezekiel 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year(YOWM).

Exodus 13:10 Thou shalt therefore keep this ordinance in his season from year to year(YOWM).

Genesis 8:22 While the earth remaineth(YOWM), seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

Genesis 40:4 And the captain of the guard charged Joseph with them, and he served them: and they continued a season(YOWM) in ward.

Joshua 24:7 And when they cried unto the Lord, he put darkness between you and the Egyptians, and brought the sea upon them, and covered them; and your eyes have seen what I have done in Egypt: and ye dwelt in the wilderness a long season(YOWM).

1 Kings 9:3 And the Lord said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually(YOWM).

Genesis 29:14 And Laban said to him, Surely thou art my bone and my flesh. And he abode with him the space(YOWM) of a month.

Leviticus 26:34 Then shall the land enjoy her sabbaths, as long(YOWM) as it lieth desolate, and ye be in your enemies' land; even then shall the land rest, and enjoy her sabbaths.

Deuteronomy 28:29 And thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore(YOWM), and no man shall save thee.

Deuteronomy 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always(YOWM), that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually(YOWM).

Genesis 41:1 And it came to pass at the end of two full(YOWM) years, that Pharaoh dreamed: and, behold, he stood by the river.

I could go on and on, but I think this shows enough variation and instances which shows us that the Hebrew word YOWM is used for a PERIOD OF TIME of many sorts. Of course it is going to be used for a day more than any other word because God is going to use "SPECIFIC MENTIONS OF DAYS" more than any other period of time. Whenever a Prophets says that there will be so and so many days of this or that he used the word YOWM. But when it was meant as EVERMORE he also used the word YOWWM, and when it meant a YEAR they also used the word YOWM, etc. etc.

So God uses the word YOWM and it's up to us to EVENTUALLY figure out what "PERIOD OF TIME" He(God) meant by that !! The Hebrew language had 4000 words and no vowels at the time, it was a primitive language of course. We shouldn't allow the professors of that time (Pharisees, Scribes) to sway us into saying this word yowm has to mean one day, it was a period of time and it's up to us to figure it out in the end. All men knew back then, comparatively speaking, was that we had days/years/months. So they had to see it as something, what was it going to be ? Day, Year, Month, Evermore, Perpetually, Full, Always, X Required, Space of time etc. etc. They sure didn't have a clue about how big the universe is like we do, they had no concept of billions of years like we do.

So God created the Universe in a period of 7 YOWM'S...........which as shown above means periods of times in various ways. We have to figure it out, we can't allow the dog to lead us here, we have to lead the dog. We can't allow the word DAY (YOWM) to force us to look at things in a manner in which it drives people away from the Gospel. We want to understand the facts, therefore we can reach people in truth. I have seen many young people tell me, hey, anyone that thinks the universe is 6000 years old, I don't want to hear about your God man, you live in la la land. But when I speak in terms of knowledge, they listen and say so you believe in Evolution, and I say why ? God created the Universe over a 13.7 billion year period, as he so desired ? It makes them think, OK.....It opens a door to gain them via what I see as facts. But if we say the Universe is 6000 years old we have no hope to reach them brother Mike. And that is my job, that is why I researched it, I hated Science in school, but its my job to reach the masses with truths, so I dug in.

Morning and Evening mean beginning and Ending of a day, or of a period of time. As per the Day of the Lord, that is the Day God's Wrath starts on, but the Day of the LORD lasts 3.5 years does it not?

I hope the above helped explain my positions somewhat and opens you up to seeing my POV here. YOWM is always inserted for a PERIOD OF TIME, its up to us to understand what that Period of time means in each instance. God Bless

 

[Carbon]

Hi Mike,

Mike? You're not talking to me, are you?

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

Mike? You're not talking to me, are you?

Remember the other post? I said I replied to a guy named Mike who Private Messaged me, so I just took the last name out of my saved private message, for an illustration here.

 

[Carbon]

Remember the other post? I said I replied to a guy named Mike who Private Messaged me, so I just took the last name out of my saved private message, for an illustration here.

Oh okay.

 

[Inertia]

For future reference:

_________
.

 

[Carbon]

Even many of the early church fathers believed in an old Earth.

Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 23)​

2. Thus, then, in the day that they ate, in the same did they die, and became death's debtors, since it was one day of the creation. For it is said, There was made in the evening, and there was made in the morning, one day. Now in this same day that they ate, in that also did they die. But according to the cycle and progress of the days, after which one is termed first, another second, and another third, if anybody seeks diligently to learn upon what day out of the seven it was that Adam died, he will find it by examining the dispensation of the Lord. For by summing up in Himself the whole human race from the beginning to the end, He has also summed up its death. From this it is clear that the Lord suffered death, in obedience to His Father, upon that day on which Adam died while he disobeyed God. Now he died on the same day in which he ate. For God said, In that day on which you shall eat of it, you shall die by death. The Lord, therefore, recapitulating in Himself this day, underwent His sufferings upon the day preceding the Sabbath, that is, the sixth day of the creation, on which day man was created; thus granting him a second creation by means of His passion, which is that [creation] out of death. And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since a day of the Lord is as a thousand years, 2 Peter 3:8 he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin. Whether, therefore, with respect to disobedience, which is death; whether [we consider] that, on account of that, they were delivered over to death, and made debtors to it; whether with respect to [the fact that on] one and the same day on which they ate they also died (for it is one day of the creation); whether [we regard this point], that, with respect to this cycle of days, they died on the day in which they did also eat, that is, the day of the preparation, which is termed the pure supper, that is, the sixth day of the feast, which the Lord also exhibited when He suffered on that day; or whether [we reflect] that he (Adam) did not overstep the thousand years, but died within their limit — it follows that, in regard to all these significations, God is indeed true. For they died who tasted of the tree; and the serpent is proved a liar and a murderer, as the Lord said of him: For he is a murderer from the beginning, and the truth is not in him. John 8:44

 

[Carbon]

Saint Justin Martyr (110-165)

Dialogue with Trypho


Chapter 81

---

“For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: ‘For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days. For the young man shall be an hundred years old; but the sinner who dies an hundred years old, he shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and shall themselves inhabit them; and they shall plant vines, and shall themselves eat the produce of them, and drink the wine. They shall not build, and others inhabit; they shall not plant, and others eat. For according to the days of the tree of life shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound. Mine elect shall not toil fruitlessly, or beget children to be cursed; for they shall be a seed righteous and blessed by the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will hear; while they are still speaking, I shall say, What is it? Then shall the wolves and the lambs feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; but the serpent [shall eat] earth as bread. They shall not hurt or maltreat each other on the holy mountain, saith the Lord.’ Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, ‘According to the days of the tree [of life] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound,’ obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, ‘The day of the Lord is as a thousand years,’ is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, ‘They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.’


It seems to me that he thought each day was 1000 years. I think the days were longer but that doesn't matter here. This is just evidence that as some think the church always believed in a literal 6, 24 hor day, is incorrect.

 

[Shulammite]

Then after naming all the animals, God put Adam in a deep sleep, took a rib, and made Eve all on the same day.

Sounds like it was a busy week, I mean if new earth is one's belief. I'd say kinda like needing a vacation after the vacation especially when you have kids.

 

[Shulammite]

Even many of the early church fathers believed in an old Earth.

Against Heresies (Book V, Chapter 23)​

2. Thus, then, in the day that they ate, in the same did they die, and became death's debtors, since it was one day of the creation. For it is said, There was made in the evening, and there was made in the morning, one day. Now in this same day that they ate, in that also did they die. But according to the cycle and progress of the days, after which one is termed first, another second, and another third, if anybody seeks diligently to learn upon what day out of the seven it was that Adam died, he will find it by examining the dispensation of the Lord. For by summing up in Himself the whole human race from the beginning to the end, He has also summed up its death. From this it is clear that the Lord suffered death, in obedience to His Father, upon that day on which Adam died while he disobeyed God. Now he died on the same day in which he ate. For God said, In that day on which you shall eat of it, you shall die by death. The Lord, therefore, recapitulating in Himself this day, underwent His sufferings upon the day preceding the Sabbath, that is, the sixth day of the creation, on which day man was created; thus granting him a second creation by means of His passion, which is that [creation] out of death. And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since a day of the Lord is as a thousand years, 2 Peter 3:8 he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin. Whether, therefore, with respect to disobedience, which is death; whether [we consider] that, on account of that, they were delivered over to death, and made debtors to it; whether with respect to [the fact that on] one and the same day on which they ate they also died (for it is one day of the creation); whether [we regard this point], that, with respect to this cycle of days, they died on the day in which they did also eat, that is, the day of the preparation, which is termed the pure supper, that is, the sixth day of the feast, which the Lord also exhibited when He suffered on that day; or whether [we reflect] that he (Adam) did not overstep the thousand years, but died within their limit — it follows that, in regard to all these significations, God is indeed true. For they died who tasted of the tree; and the serpent is proved a liar and a murderer, as the Lord said of him: For he is a murderer from the beginning, and the truth is not in him. John 8:44

Genesis 5:
The Descendants of Adam
…3When Adam was 130 years old, he had a son in his own likeness, after his own image; and he named him Seth. 4And after he had become the father of Seth, Adam lived 800 years and had other sons and daughters. 5So Adam lived a total of 930 years, and then he died.…

I do not believe age is taken into account before the fall. It is a construct of the fall itself imho.