Young Earth/Old Earth

[civic]

Won't happen - the Lord said a fire, not a flood next time.

Well Well Well - The Seekers

Yep

 

[Sereni-tea]

We congratulate ourselves on our ingenuity in our notions of time-travel and general relativity, but we can't allow the very Creator of time to manipulate it to his pleasure?

I can accept the idea of the Creator manipulating time, although I'm not sure why He would. To God a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. What I can't accept is the idea of Him manipulating history. Science reveals that the earth and the universe have a long history.

 

[Inertia]

@Inertia

Hi @ReverendRV -

From Paul - "For the creation was subjected to futility - not willingly but because of God who subjected it - in hope that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God's children." (Romans 8:20-21)

From thermodynamics - if the change in the total entropy of the universe, that is the entropy of the systems and all the surroundings are zero, useful work can no longer be extracted - anywhere*. Energy becomes degraded to a point where it is not useful to exact work from it any longer.

Ludwig Boltzmann quantified it and the equation describing entropy was etched on his grave.

In heat death not one thing that is interesting is occurring any longer. No motion, no physical life, no stars, no chemical reactions, and the universe would be at the same temperature everywhere and everywhen.

What's interesting to me here is how did the universe begin at such a low entropy state ?

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*
View attachment 300
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[makesends]

I can accept the idea of the Creator manipulating time, although I'm not sure why He would. To God a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day. What I can't accept is the idea of Him manipulating history. Science reveals that the earth and the universe have a long history.

Yes. Long history. So what?

 

[Inertia]

It's a good question. Was God stretching out the Heavens before the Creation of Man? Or did God only start stretching out the Heavens at the Fall of Man? In other words, was the Creation heading toward Heat Death before the Fall?

@Inertia

@ReverendRV :

It's safe to say that the transcendent* start of spacetime isn't relegated to an infinite past event. The creation event was initiated by God at a finite period that not only initiated space and time, it also initiated matter and energy. The universe was not caused by itself. Time didn't always exist.

"By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible." (Hebrews 11:3)

"For this is what the LORD says— he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited— he says: “I am the LORD, and there is no other." (Isaiah 45:18)

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* I'm using a stipulative definition of the word "transcendent" here meaning beyond physics.
.

 

[Sereni-tea]

Yes. Long history. So what?

So nothing, really. It was just a comment.

 

[David1701]

Hi @ReverendRV -

From Paul - "For the creation was subjected to futility - not willingly but because of God who subjected it - in hope that the creation itself will also be set free from the bondage of decay into the glorious freedom of God's children." (Romans 8:20-21)

From thermodynamics - if the change in the total entropy of the universe, that is the entropy of the systems and all the surroundings are zero, useful work can no longer be extracted - anywhere*. Energy becomes degraded to a point where it is not useful to exact work from it any longer.

Ludwig Boltzmann quantified it and the equation describing entropy was etched on his grave.

View attachment 301

In heat death not one thing that is interesting is occurring any longer. No motion, no physical life, no stars, no chemical reactions, and the universe would be at the same temperature everywhere and everywhen.

What's interesting to me here is how did the universe begin at such a low entropy state ?

______

*
View attachment 300
.

Ah, Boltzmann! Is he not the one who from whom the expression "Boltzmann Brains" comes? Statistically, it's more likely that there are disembodied brains imagining what we think of as the universe (and that the universe doesn't exist), than that nothing exploded and evolved into everything.

 

[ReverendRV]

Ah, Boltzmann! Is he not the one who from whom the expression "Boltzmann Brains" comes? Statistically, it's more likely that there are disembodied brains imagining what we think of as the universe (and that the universe doesn't exist), than that nothing exploded and evolved into everything.

When we listen to Secularists and some of their Hypotheses, a lot of what they say sounds like God. A disembodied Boltzmann Brain? Why not say an embodied Brain may be floating in the Vastness of Space? @Inertia

Or is the Universe not that vast?

 

[Inertia]

Ah, Boltzmann! Is he not the one who from whom the expression "Boltzmann Brains" comes? Statistically, it's more likely that there are disembodied brains imagining what we think of as the universe (and that the universe doesn't exist), than that nothing exploded and evolved into everything.

That's hilarious.

Why did the universe begin in a hot dense low entropy state? How can we measure anything before the everywhere stretch occured, even before the existence of time? ( Does this question have physical meaning? )

"The question then is whether the origin of the universe was a naturally occuring fluctuation or was it due to an external agent which started the system out in a specific low entropy state?" *

Boltzmann's primary contribution to 19th century physics was in particle thermodynamics and gases. Physicists at the time of Boltzmann didn't believe he was correct about atoms. Only later did we find out that Boltzmann was indeed - correct.

The Boltzmann brain hypothesis is an idea where a naturally occurring quantum fluctuation randomly created a very low entropy, very low probability state ( 1 in 10^10^120 ) and ever since the beginning of the everywhere stretch - the entropy of the universe continually increased. However, small fluctuations in entropy are much more likely to occur than larger ones. The smaller the fluctuation, the higher the probability. Reducing this concept from the universe to galaxies, or to our planet, or even a human, and then to -- > a human brain (Boltzmann's brain) is the construct used to help how cosmologists evaluate their own hypotheses.

Note: This brain is complete with false memories of our universe. < ---

- The hypothesis doesn't sit well with many cosmologists. "It's a cognitively unstable concept." Sean Carroll

As it turns out the mass of the Higgs and top quark must be so finely tuned and produced late enough for the universe to support humanity long before the Boltzmann Brain hypothesis can be put into effect.

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* L. Dyson, M. Kleban, and L. Susskind, "Disturbing Implications of a Cosmological Constant", arXiv
.

 

[David1701]

That's hilarious.

Why did the universe begin in a hot dense low entropy state? How can we measure anything before the everywhere stretch occured, even before the existence of time? ( Does this question have physical meaning? )

"The question then is whether the origin of the universe was a naturally occuring fluctuation or was it due to an external agent which started the system out in a specific low entropy state?" *

Boltzmann's primary contribution to 19th century physics was in particle thermodynamics and gases. Physicists at the time of Boltzmann didn't believe he was correct about atoms. Only later did we find out that Boltzmann was indeed - correct.

The Boltzmann brain hypothesis is an idea where a naturally occurring quantum fluctuation randomly created a very low entropy, very low probability state ( 1 in 10^10^120 ) and ever since the beginning of the everywhere stretch - the entropy of the universe continually increased. However, small fluctuations in entropy are much more likely to occur than larger ones. The smaller the fluctuation, the higher the probability. Reducing this concept from the universe to galaxies, or to our planet, or even a human, and then to -- > a human brain (Boltzmann's brain) is the construct used to help how cosmologists evaluate their own hypotheses.

Note: This brain is complete with false memories of our universe. < ---

- The hypothesis doesn't sit well with many cosmologists. "It's a cognitively unstable concept." Sean Carroll

As it turns out the mass of the Higgs and top quark must be so finely tuned and produced late enough for the universe to support humanity long before the Boltzmann Brain hypothesis can be put into effect.

______

* L. Dyson, M. Kleban, and L. Susskind, "Disturbing Implications of a Cosmological Constant", arXiv
.

Ah, well, I can answer the question about the origin of the universe. It was definitely an external Agent.

Genesis 1:1-5 (World English Bible)
1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was formless and empty. Darkness was on the surface of the deep and God’s Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters.

3 God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
4 God saw the light, and saw that it was good. God divided the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light “day”, and the darkness he called “night”. There was evening and there was morning, the first day.

 

[EarlyActs]

Ah, well, I can answer the question about the origin of the universe. It was definitely an external Agent.

Genesis 1:1-5 (World English Bible)
1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was formless and empty. Darkness was on the surface of the deep and God’s Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters.

3 God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
4 God saw the light, and saw that it was good. God divided the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light “day”, and the darkness he called “night”. There was evening and there was morning, the first day.

Here's something that escapes science even further: that God spoke things into existence. This is found here, and Ps 33 and possibly in the name the Logos. But even now in science research, there is the discovery that the fundamental particle of matter is not an atom or part of one, but a phonon, a sound wave. This connects.

Btw, a variety of native legend have the same statement about their creator; that no physical work was done, he just spoke. In the Sequalish creation story near Seattle, 6 things like this about the cosmology actually match Genesis.

 

[Inertia]

Ah, well, I can answer the question about the origin of the universe. It was definitely an external Agent.

agreed - a transcendent loving external agent

Genesis 1:1-5 (World English Bible)
1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.
2 The earth was formless and empty. Darkness was on the surface of the deep and God’s Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters.

3 God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
4 God saw the light, and saw that it was good. God divided the light from the darkness.
5 God called the light “day”, and the darkness he called “night”. There was evening and there was morning, the first day.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." ( John 1:1-3)

_____
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[Inertia]

Here's something that escapes science even further: that God spoke things into existence. This is found here, and Ps 33 and possibly in the name the Logos. But even now in science research, there is the discovery that the fundamental particle of matter is not an atom or part of one, but a phonon, a sound wave. This connects.

Btw, a variety of native legend have the same statement about their creator; that no physical work was done, he just spoke. In the Sequalish creation story near Seattle, 6 things like this about the cosmology actually match Genesis.

Hi EarlyActs.

Reference(s) ?

______
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[EarlyActs]

Hi EarlyActs.

Reference(s) ?

______
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Gen 1: just see how many times he spoke and it was there.
Ps 33: just read it. v6 or so.
The Logos is the name for Christ in the gospel by John
The Sequalish museum is across the water from downtown Seattle.
Just put phonons in your search bar and you'll be drowned.

 

[makesends]

- The hypothesis doesn't sit well with many cosmologists. "It's a cognitively unstable concept." Sean Carroll

Nice!

 

[Inertia]

Gen 1: just see how many times he spoke and it was there.
Ps 33: just read it. v6 or so.
The Logos is the name for Christ in the gospel by John
The Sequalish museum is across the water from downtown Seattle.
Just put phonons in your search bar and you'll be drowned.

"For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm." ( Psalm 33: 9 )

Indeed God speaks and His creation stands firm.

_______
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[EarlyActs]

"For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm." ( Psalm 33: 9 )

Indeed God speaks and His creation stands firm.

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.

Sorry one of my references was missing a piece. Logos is the 'word' or 'reason' for something. Jn 1 says 'the world was made through the Logos.'

Of course , there are other verbs used about creation, but they go off in a direction that science would not appreciate: 2 Peter 3: the earth was molded (as in pottery) out of water and through water. Or Gen 2: God formed man of the dust. It almost sounds like 2P3 was echoing Gen 2.

 

[makesends]

"For he spoke, and it came to be; he commanded, and it stood firm." ( Psalm 33: 9 )

Indeed God speaks and His creation stands firm.

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Exactly. In fact, it is only by his decree that anything exists, nevermind that anything has the characteristics that it does. From HIM, anything derives its ontology.

From the WCF chapter 3, concerning His Decree: "1. God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

My vote was undecided.

I have many questions about the age of the Earth. One question being,

If the earth is young and created in six literal 24 hour days, and everything seemed to be around a 24-hour period, no indication of anything faster, no hyper speed etc... Then how could Adam name every animal in one 24-hour day, or less assuming he had to sleep?

19 Now out of the ground the Lord God had formed every beast of the field and every bird of the heavens and brought them to the man to see what he would call them. And whatever the man called every living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him. Genesis 2:19-20.

@Sereni-tea Thoughts?

Its an old earth, YOWM simply means time period. I have a concise old blog on this, but it has a picture, can we post images here? Thanks. I explain every step, but of course in an analytical manner.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Are you a young earth or old earth believer?

OEC