Yahweh 301,302 or Trinity 301,302

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker,

Paul declared in one glorious sentence the truth of our great Father God and Jesus Christ.

I appreciate your response. Perhaps the difference here is that I consider that 1 Corinthians 8:6 defines that there is only ONE God, and that God is God the Father. This excludes the Trinity.

These heretics ignorantly reject the personification of wisdom in this chapter.

I am in agreement with you that Wisdom is personified in Proverbs 8. I will listen to your talk on Psalm 110:1 tomorrow. Very late at night here, 11:38pm.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Eleanor]

Greetings again Eleanor,

Even though I give no importance to Greek philosophy, your definition is reasonably close to what I have been stating about the personification of the Word and Wisdom. It does not speak about a Being, God the Son. The Apostle John had been instructed by the greatest Teacher that has ever lived, and he did not need to be educated in Greek Philosophy. Much of the NT is based upon the OT, not Greek Philosophy

None of which alters the fact that John was using a reference point the pagan Greeks would understand.

which was used to corrupt the teaching of the NT. Paul for one speaks about the fact that Greek Philosophy did not understand Jesus Christ and him crucified.

Paul speaks of the world (pagans) that did not understand Jesus and him crucified.

It is interesting how you start with "God the Son" and then end up with an opposing concept "the Son of God". Also I have encountered a range of "Trinitarian" opinions as to what "the Son of God" actually represents, and possibly you have come one step closer than those who claim that Jesus is begotten from eternity John 1:14

Jn 1:14 is not about the Word who was God (Jn 1:1) being begotten from all eternity.
Jn 1:14 is about the Word who was God becoming the man, Jesus, begotten in time in a mortal body in the womb of Mary.

What a surprise - your list again. I wonder if this is your own personal list,

It's not my personal list, I didn't write Scripture.
It is a list of God's word (2 Tim 3:16) on the subject, which is authoritative to the church.
That being the case, all not in agreement with the Scriptures, understood in the light of all Scripture, are not in agreement with God.

based upon considering all the references or a copy and paste from some source. There is a problem with such a list. It almost assumes that those who disagree with you and your conclusions, that they ignore or even reject the verses that you quote. Nothing is further from the truth. I accept the Scriptures, I accept the words of Jesus and the Apostles.

My aim in this thread is to consider one Scripture at a time,

I consider Scripture only in the light of all Scripture understood in agreement with all Scripture.
For anything less is subject to error of not agreeing with all Scripture.

and I have nominated 1 John 5:7, John 10:30-33, 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Psalm 110:1. I could review and summarise our respective answers on John 10:30-33, and I am confident that I covered this subject adequately and your response was far from being convincing or correct. You ended up siding with the false accusation by the Jews and ignoring the comprehensive answer by Jesus. As far as 1 John 5:7 is concerned,

Your OP (post #1) quotes my post #302 from another thread ("God-man"), wherein I presented the comprehensive Biblical testimony to the Biblical truth that Jesus is God.

You have yet to refute that Biblical demonstration, and until that is done, it remains a valid Biblical demonstration that Jesus is God, all objections and alternatives thereto not-with-standing.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker,

Please take time to hear this short sermon on Psalms 110:1 Listen to the one 05/27/12

I have been busy before answering your two Posts. First I decided to listen to the three talks on Psalm 110 even though you only recommended the second:
Talk 1: Psalm 110 August 14th 2005 13:58 minutes Senior Pastor
Talk 2: Psalm 110 May 27th 2012 19:46 minutes (same) Senior Pastor
Talk 3: Psalm 110 April 24th 2016 9:29 Younger Speaker (he mentions that the “Pastor” had given an introduction.

I agreed with much of what was stated, especially when all three talks applied Psalm 110:1 to the exaltation of Jesus after his resurrection to sit at the right hand of God. I disagreed with the Pastor in his second talk as he spoke against the use of “Yahweh” and advocated “Jehovah” and as mentioned on a previous post was confused about the vowel points of Adonai and Elohim.

I disagreed with the application by both the Pastor and the Young Speaker that verse 2 is speaking about the preaching of the Gospel from Acts 2 to the present day. My understanding of verses 1 and 2 is that Jesus has been exalted to sit at God’s right hand, and that he will stay in that position until God sends him back to the earth to establish the Kingdom. That will be the time when his people will be willing, and they will help Jesus establish the Kingdom at that time.

The other obvious assessment is that each speaker stated that Jesus sat down at the right hand of God and this agrees with Psalm 110:1. If the Trinity is correct then Jesus is God and thus is not seated at the right hand of God. There are two or three individuals all called "God" sharing the same Throne (Possibly God the Holy Spirit is like a cloud hovering over the top of the older God, God the Father, and over the younger God, God the Son). Also if the Trinity was correct then Jesus is not exalted and invited to sit at the right hand of God, as he would only be resuming his seat in the Trinity Throne.

These heretics ignorantly reject the personification of wisdom in this chapter.

I also decided to look up three Commentaries on Proverbs 8. You seem to indicate that there are two different perspectives on Proverbs 8, as to whether the Wise Woman “Wisdom” is a personification or an actual Being. Your own comment above indicates that you accept that this is figurative language and “Wisdom” is personified as a wise woman, and I agree with your position.

The first commentary sided with us, but then claimed that the theme is expanded into John 1:1 to Jesus as The Word, and is not a personification in John 1:1. The second commentary seemed to speak only about the Wise Woman of Proverbs 8 as a personification. The third commentary claimed that the Wise Woman is somehow the pre-incarnate Jesus or God the Son.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings again Red Baker,

I agreed with much of what was stated, especially when all three talks applied Psalm 110:1 to the exaltation of Jesus after his resurrection to sit at the right hand of God..................................I disagreed with the application by both the Pastor and the Young Speaker that verse 2 is speaking about the preaching of the Gospel from Acts 2 to the present day. My understanding of verses 1 and 2 is that Jesus has been exalted to sit at God’s right hand, and that he will stay in that position until God sends him back to the earth to establish the Kingdom. That will be the time when his people will be willing, and they will help Jesus establish the Kingdom at that time.

Psalms 110 (A Psalm of David.) The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies. Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth. The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek. The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head."

Greetings Trevor,

A look at Psalms 110, clearly seems to be teaching a period of time from Christ's exaltation to his coming back again to destroy his enemies.

That would cover the NT period from Acts one where Christ was taken up from the disciples unto Jesus' second coming at the last day.

Concerning Jesus exalted to God's right hand~a couple of points: God is a Spirit and has no hands, besides his throne is the entire universe of all creation seen and not seen. I understand such scriptures to mean that Jesus is exalted above all, or, as high as a person can be exalted, except God who is a eternal Spirit~Even though Jesus is God and the ONLY God we shall ever see, yet he also is a MAN, and as a man is subject unto God who is a Spirit.

Another point I would like to make~when it is said that Jesus is exalted to God's right hand, it simply means that he is exalted as high has anyone can be exalted, right there with God, yea, he is God, that every knee shall bow and every mouth will confess him to be the true God, the very express image of his Father, who is an eternal Spirit that no man has, or will ever see, no, not even angels!

When one see Jesus, then they have seen God~1st Timothy 3:16

When one rejects Jesus as God, then they have rejected God Himself. I do not know how to make this any plainer than I have.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Eleanor and Red Baker,

None of which alters the fact that John was using a reference point the pagan Greeks would understand.

It may be possible that the simple clear truth based upon the OT language would dismiss much of the pagan Greek Philosophy, but I doubt that John 1:1 is some profound, complicated concept in the style of Greek Philosophy. We do not need to understand Plato to understand the Gospel. If anything, a person submerged in Plato's teaching cannot understand the Gospel.

Paul speaks of the world (pagans) that did not understand Jesus and him crucified.

The Gospel was preached to humble people and this usually bypassed the learned of that Age and this Age.
1 Corinthians 1:19–31 (KJV): 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

Matthew 11:25–26 (KJV): 25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Paul speaks of the world (pagans) that did not understand Jesus and him crucified.

I think Paul in 1 Corinthians 1-4 was speaking about Greek Philosophy and Education. Paul was counteracting the reversion of the Corinthians into following Apollos who reminded the Apollos party faction of the Greek ability to speak and debate and philosophise.

Jn 1:14 is not about the Word who was God (Jn 1:1) being begotten from all eternity.
Jn 1:14 is about the Word who was God becoming the man, Jesus, begotten in time in a mortal body in the womb of Mary.

I suggest that the Word is figurative, a personification of God's whole purpose, plan which is centred in Jesus. Yes, I agree that Jesus is begotten by God the Father, and Mary his mother. As such he is a new conception/birth, a new creation by the power of the Holy Spirit and combining with Mary to produce a human, not a God-Man. It does not say the Word became Flesh and God, or some such combination. ALL that comprised the WORD became flesh. The continuity of the Deity in John 1:1,14 is the moral character of God the Father came to be revealed in Jesus the Son of God. When Jesus was revealed at age of 30 John and others beheld Jesus' moral glory, as Jesus was full of grace and truth. Jesus as a human did not reveal the physical glory until the transfiguration and after he ascended to heaven, and also to Paul on the way to Damascus.

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
"dwelt among us" could be understood in the sense of tabernacled among us, an allusion to all the design and typical objects of the Tabernacle in the Wilderness. Here is the Word made Flesh. Jesus is the Lampstand, the Altar of Incense, the Showbread, the Vail, the Cherubim on the Vail and in the Most Holy, the Mercy Seat. In the Centre of this was the Shekinah Glory, and this was revealed in and through Christ's character, God's dwelling Place among mankind.

A look at Psalms 110, clearly seems to be teaching a period of time from Christ's exaltation to his coming back again to destroy his enemies.
That would cover the NT period from Acts one where Christ was taken up from the disciples unto Jesus' second coming at the last day.

I am not sure as to what you are saying. I understand that the "until" of Psalm 110:1 is saying that Jesus will sit at the right hand of God UNTIL Jesus is sent back to establish the Kingdom. The two speakers stated that Jesus was conquering his enemies immediately after the ascension, and an example was the conversion of many in Acts 2. It is the same UNTIL as in the following, and this could be Peter's exposition of Psalm 110:1-2 and Acts 1:10-11:
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Concerning Jesus exalted to God's right hand~a couple of points: God is a Spirit and has no hands, besides his throne is the entire universe of all creation seen and not seen. I understand such scriptures to mean that Jesus is exalted above all, except God who is a eternal Spirit~Even though Jesus is God and the ONLY God we shall ever see, yet he also is a MAN, and as a man is subject unto God who is a Spirit.

I believe that God is located in a central portion of heaven upon his Throne, and Jesus, a man, the Son of God is sitting at God's right hand.
Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
I believe that a "Spirit" Being has substance and I believe that Jesus was a Spirit Being soon after his resurrection when he appeared to the Apostles

yea, he is God, that every knee shall bow and every mouth will confess him to be the true God, the very express image of his Father, who is an eternal Spirit that no man has, or will ever see, no not even angels!

I suggest you are mixing a blend of verses and adding some of your own mixture as well. Jesus is not God as he is a human, now exalted, the Son of God, by birth, character and resurrection.

When one see Jesus, then they have seen God~1st Timothy 3:16
When one rejects Jesus as God, then they have rejected God Himself. I do not know how to make this any plainer than I have.

I believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, but not in the sense that you convey. He is the fulfilment of what the One God, Yahweh, God the Father would become. God the Father gave birth to a Son, filled him with grace and truth, and after his suffering, crucifixion and death raised his mortal body and changed him into an immortal Spirit body, who still had evidence of his wounds when seen by the Apostles.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings Red Baker,

I am not sure as to what you are saying. I understand that the "until" of Psalm 110:1 is saying that Jesus will sit at the right hand of God UNTIL Jesus is sent back to establish the Kingdom. The two speakers stated that Jesus was conquering his enemies immediately after the ascension, and an example was the conversion of many in Acts 2. It is the same UNTIL as in the following, and this could be Peter's exposition of Psalm 110:1-2 and Acts 1:10-11:
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Trevor, there's only one speaker~The LORD, which means I AM THAT I AM~Jehovah God, Jehovah being His name, God being His title.

The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath. He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries. He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head."

In these words you are assuming there's two speakers, when actually this is a statement by the Holy Ghost of what the Lord Jesus Christ will do upon his coming back at the last day.

I believe that God is located in a central portion of heaven upon his Throne, and Jesus, a man, the Son of God is sitting at God's right hand.
Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
I believe that a "Spirit" Being has substance and I believe that Jesus was a Spirit Being soon after his resurrection when he appeared to the Apostles

"Central portion?" He fills heaven and earth, there's no place where God is not already there, no place.

Psalms 139:8~"If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."

What you believe about a Spirit being having substance means nothing, we must prove it with the scriptures, which you will never be able to do. God is a Spirit, period! Paul put it this way:

Colossians 1:15~" Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"

You claim that God has being, that has substance! that's almost blasphemy! You need to rethink what you are saying Trevor. Jesus Christ has a body that was prepared for him of His Father, and in that glorified body we shall see God Almighty!

I suggest you are mixing a blend of verses and adding some of your own mixture as well. Jesus is not God as he is a human, now exalted, the Son of God, by birth, character and resurrection.

I believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, but not in the sense that you convey. He is the fulfilment of what the One God, Yahweh, God the Father would become. God the Father gave birth to a Son, filled him with grace and truth, and after his suffering, crucifixion and death raised his mortal body and changed him into an immortal Spirit body, who still had evidence of his wounds when seen by the Apostles.

I'm coming back to address this all important statements of yours.. It will take two posts, enough room on this post to do justice to this important subject.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker,

Trevor, there's only one speaker~The LORD, which means I AM THAT I AM~Jehovah God, Jehovah being His name, God being His title.

I was speaking about the two speakers, the Senior Pastor and the Younger Speaker who you asked me to listen to. They applied Psalm 110:2 to what Jesus was already doing after he was exalted. I think the Senior Pastor also mentioned AD 70 and the overthrow of the Pagan Roman Empire.

"Central portion?" He fills heaven and earth, there's no place where God is not already there, no place.

1 Kings 8:30 (KJV): 30 And hearken thou to the supplication of thy servant, and of thy people Israel, when they shall pray toward this place: and hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place: and when thou hearest, forgive.

Matthew 6:9–15 (KJV): 9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. 10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. 11 Give us this day our daily bread. 12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. 13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Luke 1:19 (KJV): And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Hebrews 1:13–14 (KJV): 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

What you believe about a Spirit being having substance means nothing, we must prove it with the scriptures, which you will never be able to do. God is a Spirit, period!

Was Jesus a Spirit Being soon after he was raised from the dead?

You claim that God has being, that has substance! that's almost blasphemy! You need to rethink what you are saying Trevor. Jesus Christ has a body that was prepared for him of His Father, and in that glorified body we shall see God Almighty!

God the Father is not invisible. All that is saying is that we are not able to approach unto Him in heaven. Why do you have one God that can be seen, and another God who cannot be seen. You need to reconsider Psalm 40 and the reference in Hebrews.

I'm coming back to address this all important statements of yours.. It will take two posts, enough room on this post to do justice to this important subject.

I will have to consider this tomorrow. Late at night now. I have already extensively stated that I believe that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Son. I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and that our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

I suggest you are mixing a blend of verses and adding some of your own mixture as well. Jesus is not God as he is a human, now exalted, the Son of God, by birth, character and resurrection.

I believe that Jesus is God manifest in the flesh, but not in the sense that you convey. He is the fulfilment of what the One God, Yahweh, God the Father would become. God the Father gave birth to a Son, filled him with grace and truth, and after his suffering, crucifixion and death raised his mortal body and changed him into an immortal Spirit body, who still had evidence of his wounds when seen by the Apostles.

Trevor, what you are saying is against the scriptures, God's testimony to us of TRUTH concerning His Son, Jesus.

1. You plainly said:

Jesus is not God

2.

He is the fulfilment of what the One God, Yahweh, God the Father would become

Start with #2 since that is so easy to refute in a few words. God was not Jesus Christ! God did not become someone that he was not from the beginning. Jesus was God, but God was not Jesus. Can God grow in wisdom, and understanding? Jesus did~Luke 2. Does God need to sleep? Jesus needed sleep. Does not get hungry? Can God die? Jesus did ! on and on we could go. Trevor, God was not Jesus Christ. Mary did not give birth to God, she gave birth to God's son.

Let's look at what you said above:

Jesus is not God

Trevor Jesus was God~the Word which was God joined himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God and lived in this world for 33.5 years or so. Jesus was a complex person, fully man, and fully God. We see support from the scriptures to teach this truth.

Consider some scriptures with me.

Romans 14: 10-12~"But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

As I Live. — The Apostle does not take the words literally; but as the Holy Ghost spoke by him, we are assured that he gives the true meaning I have sworn by myself, is substantially the same with as I Live. Saith the Lord. The Apostle, by the addition of these words, shows that in the passage he quotes it was the Messiah who, in the preceding verse, said, ‘Look unto Me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is none else,’ Isaiah 45:22. Every knee shall bow to Me. — As in Philippians 2:10 the same thing is asserted with respect to Christ personally, this is also applicable to Christ personally and directly. In judgment all will bow to God, seeing they will bow to Christ. Every tongue shall confess to God. This is substantially the same with ‘unto Me every tongue shall swear.’In the Epistle to the Hebrews we learn that God swears by Himself,‘because He could swear by no greater;’ and thus Jesus Christ, in here swearing by His life, of by Himself, gives, according to that declaration of the Apostle, a proof of His divinity. In the preceding verses of this chapter it is always to Jesus Christ that Paul refers when he says the Lord. It is by Him that we shall be judged at the last day; it is to Him that Christians are entirely devoted, which, were He merely a creature, would evidently be a violation of the law of Him who says, ‘I am a jealous God,’and ‘My glory I will not give to another.’ ‘The Father judgeth no man; but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: that all men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son, honoreth not the Father which hath sent Him.’

Ver. 12~ So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. So then. — Consequently then, or by consequence then. This is an inference which the Apostle draws from the passage quoted from the Old Testament. Every individual of the human race must give account of himself to God. This applies to believers as well as to others. And though all their sins are blotted out through the blood of atonement, they should not indulge themselves in sin. The fact of a future judgment ought to have a constant influence on our conduct. Standing before the judgment-seat of Christ, of which the Apostle had just before spoken, is here represented as giving an account to God.
Trevor. one more scriptures that I want you to explain: 1st John 5:20~"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal" life.

I'll wait to hear what you ahve to say.

 

[Red Baker]

deleted

 

[Eleanor]

Greetings again Eleanor and Red Baker,

It may be possible that the simple clear truth based upon the OT language would dismiss much of the pagan Greek Philosophy, but I doubt that John 1:1 is some profound, complicated concept in the style of Greek Philosophy. We do not need to understand Plato to understand the Gospel.

Straw man.

If anything, a person submerged in Plato's teaching cannot understand the Gospel.

The Gospel was preached to humble people and this usually bypassed the learned of that Age and this Age.

John's gospel was written to Greek pagans.

I suggest that the Word is figurative,

Indeed, of the First Cause, the great Intelligence and Reason behind the universe.

a personification of God's whole purpose, plan which is centred in Jesus. Yes, I agree that Jesus is begotten by God the Father, and Mary his mother. As such he is a new conception/birth, a new creation by the power of the Holy Spirit and combining with Mary to produce a human, not a God-Man. It does not say the Word became Flesh and God, or some such combination. ALL that comprised the WORD became flesh. The continuity of the Deity in John 1:1,14 is the moral character of God the Father came to be revealed in Jesus the Son of God. When Jesus was revealed at age of 30 John and others beheld Jesus' moral glory, as Jesus was full of grace and truth. Jesus as a human did not reveal the physical glory until the transfiguration and after he ascended to heaven, and also to Paul on the way to Damascus.

John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
"dwelt among us" could be understood in the sense of tabernacled among us, an allusion to all the design and typical objects of the Tabernacle in the Wilderness. Here is the Word made Flesh. Jesus is the Lampstand, the Altar of Incense, the Showbread, the Vail, the Cherubim on the Vail and in the Most Holy, the Mercy Seat. In the Centre of this was the Shekinah Glory, and this was revealed in and through Christ's character, God's dwelling Place among mankind.

I am not sure as to what you are saying. I understand that the "until" of Psalm 110:1 is saying that Jesus will sit at the right hand of God UNTIL Jesus is sent back to establish the Kingdom. The two speakers stated that Jesus was conquering his enemies immediately after the ascension, and an example was the conversion of many in Acts 2. It is the same UNTIL as in the following, and this could be Peter's exposition of Psalm 110:1-2 and Acts 1:10-11:
Acts 3:19–21 (KJV): 19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

I believe that God is located in a central portion of heaven upon his Throne, and Jesus, a man, the Son of God is sitting at God's right hand.
Revelation 3:21–22 (KJV): 21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
I believe that a "Spirit" Being has substance and I believe that Jesus was a Spirit Being soon after his resurrection when he appeared to the Apostles

I suggest you are mixing a blend of verses and adding some of your own mixture as well.

Then it falls to you to Biblically demonstrate the truth of your assertion.
Until then it is just sounding brass and tinkling cymbal.

Jesus is not God as he is a human, now exalted, the Son of God, by birth, character and resurrection.

Your issue is with the NT in the following, it is not with me.

Jesus said that whoever rejects what his apostles say is rejecting what Jesus says (Lk 10:16).

Mt 3:3 and Lk 1:67-68, 76 regarding Isa 40:3 where Matthew and Luke say that Jesus is the YHWH of whom the voice calling in the wilderness (John the Baptist) prepared the way.

Ro 10:9, 13 regarding Joel 2:32 where Paul teaches Jesus is the YHWH of Joel's prophecy that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."

Heb 1:6 regarding Dt 32:43 where Paul quotes Moses' song referring to YHWH and says it applies to Jesus.

Rev 1:12-18 regarding Isa 44:6, 48:12 where John says the man in the vision is Jesus (1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.

Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 regarding Rev 1:8 where John says the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.

Rev 21:5-7 regarding Rev 20:11-13 where John says Jesus, the one on the throne (Rev 20:11-13 with Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39), is God (Rev 21:7).

Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 where John and Paul say the YHWH who created all things (Ge 1:1, Is 44:24, Jer 10:16) is Jesus.

So why are Jesus' words above spoken through his apostles being rejected?

 

[Red Baker]

John's gospel was written to Greek pagans.

I do not believe this to be so.

John 20:31~"But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

John's gospel like all of the NT is written to believers.

 

[Eleanor]

I do not believe this to be so.


John's gospel like all of the NT is written to believers.

Okay, make it Greek believers, to whom he was explaining the divinity of Christ.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker,

Jesus was God~the Word which was God joined himself to the tabernacle of the Son of God

You are adapting what the Scriptures actually states to somehow support your contradictory Trinitarian concepts. It states that the Word was made flesh. It does not say that the Word attached himself to the flesh that had been born of Mary and God the Father,
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Indeed, of the First Cause, the great Intelligence and Reason behind the universe.

John is not quoting Greek Philosophy. He is basing his words on the concepts introduced in the OT. Greek Philosophy eventually corrupted the Bible teaching concerning God and the end result was the adoption of the Doctrine of the Trinity.

A few quotations from the book History of the Dogma of the Deity of Christ by A Reville 1904 (from translation 1905)
Professor of the History of Religion at the College of France.

Page 4: The maxim of Vincent de Leyrins, more boastful than true, ‘the Church, when it employs new terms, never says anything new’, influenced the entire history of Christianity; philosophers and submissive believers were equally satisfied with it.

After a brief summary of the doctrine of the Trinity he says:
Page 9: Such is the doctrine which, having been slowly elaborated, arrived at supremacy in the Christian Church towards the end of the fifth century, and which, after continuing undisputed, excepting in connection with some obscure heresies, for eleven centuries, has been gradually from the sixteenth century losing its prestige, although it is still the professed belief of the majority of Christians.

Page 10: … the religious sentiment … is not in the least alarmed at contradictions; on the contrary, there are times when it might be said that it seeks and delights in them. They seem to strengthen the impression of mystery, an attitude which belongs to every object of adoration.

Speaking of the developments in the second century:
Page 54: … the ‘celestial being’ increasingly supplanted the human being, except among the Jewish-Christians of the primitive type … These firmly maintained the opinion that Jesus was a man, … fully inspired by God … admitted his miraculous conception.

Page 59: The Platonists began to furnish brilliant recruits to the churches of Asia and Greece, and introduced among them their love of system and their idealism. To state the facts in a few words, Hellenism insensibly supplanted Judaism as the form of Christian thought, and to this is mainly owing the orthodox dogma of the deity of Jesus Christ.

Page 60: Hence the rapidity with which a philosophical doctrine of much earlier origin than Christianity, and at first foreign to the Church, was brought into it, and adapted itself so completely to the prevailing Christology as to become identical therewith, and to pass for the belief which had been professed by the disciples from the beginning.

Page 96: There were some Jewish-Christians who admitted without difficulty the miraculous birth of Jesus, but would not hear of his pre-existence.

Page 105: It is curious to read the incredible subtleties by which Athanasius and the orthodox theologians strove to remove the stumbling-block from the history of a dogma which they desired to represent as having been invariable and complete since the earliest days.

Page 108-109: … the minds of men … either inclined to lay great stress upon the subordination of the Son, in order to keep as close as possible to the facts of Gospel history, or they dwelt strongly upon his divinity, in order to satisfy an ardent piety, which felt as if it could not exalt Christ too highly. From this sprang two doctrines, that of Arius and of Athanasius. In reality, though under other forms, it was a renewal of the struggle between rationalism and mysticism.

Your issue is with the NT in the following, it is not with me.

Your favourite list again. My aim is to gradually whittle away at this subject, both positive and negative. I suggest that I have examined some of the favourite "Trinity verses" and shown what these verses actually teach and that these do not support the Trinity. I have also established some of the true foundations of this subject, that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted, the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

Greetings again Red Baker,

You are adapting what the Scriptures actually states to somehow support your contradictory Trinitarian concepts. It states that the Word was made flesh. It does not say that the Word attached himself to the flesh that had been born of Mary and God the Father,
John 1:14 (KJV): And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Trevor, fine~I agree the Word was made flesh and that Word was God! So, you explain to me, how this came about since we all know that Mary did not give birth to God ~ but, to God's Son, I have two questions for you to answer:

Question #1~ Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.

Question #2~ Can there be true Divinity where any of these attributes are wanting in question #1? Surely not.

This is why we reject eternal generation of the Son of God to be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"?

Those that hold to the incarnate Sonship and reject the eternal Sonship are the only ones that can explain and make sense that Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father of all things~the I AM THAT I AM. We contend that Jesus Christ the Son of God possessed real Divinity that was underived in any sense. There is no possible medium. Either it is so, or not so. We know that Jesus Christ was God manifested in flesh ( 1st Timothy 3:16; 1st John 5:20; etc., verses you did not address ) before Jews and Gentiles and that he preached unto both, and both rejected him, and devils trembled before, for they knew him.

If we speak of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, then we must be able to comprehensibly define our terms used or confess that we are using terms that teach doctrines against the Son of God, of which the eternal Sonship position does, for no man living can comprehensible define the eternal Sonship position, without making Jesus a begotten god. It can not be done. If one rejects Jesus as God manifest in the flesh, then they have more scriptures to address which they cannot do.

The sum of this point is this: Those that use terms, such as eternal Sonship, eternal generation, in relation to God or Christ, ought at least to be able and willing to tell their own meaning in the use of those terms, or not use them. Fair enough?

Also, those who reject Jesus being God manifest in the flesh must be able to address many scriptures that teach that he was indeed God in the beginning of Genesis 1:1

When stripped of all artificial verbiage, the naked question returns: Is Jesus Christ absolutely, eternally independently, underived, the very Supreme and eternal God, that the word of God declares him to be?

We say, yes he is! That is why we must reject eternal generation in any way presented to us by men who profess to be wise. Also, we reject as pure heresy those who reject the deity of the Son of God as being the I AM THAT I AM.

 

[Red Baker]

Okay, make it Greek believers, to whom he was explaining the divinity of Christ.

Sister, the gospel was not sent to the Greek as of yet!

Eleanor, "overall" we agree on the deity of Jesus Christ being the I AM THAT I AM, just I and many like me, reject the Creeds of men that destroy Jesus' deity making him a begotten God!

Eternally begotten which is a dogma that is discredited logically by self contradiction. To contend that Jesus was eternally begotten is a manifest contradiction of term. We ask: can an object begin and not begun? No. The saying within itself is most absurd.

Please consider carefully: Eternity is that which has no beginning, nor stands in reference to time~Son supposes time, generation, and father; time is also antedent to such generation~therefore, the conjunction of the two terms: Son and eternity~is absolutely impossible as they imply different and opposite ideal. Words must have meaning, or else, how can we communicate with each other on a level where we can understand each other? I understand eternity and I also understand the word son, and so do my readers, and we should know how to use each word properly, without confusing the meaning of either.

Eleanor~If Jesus Christ be the eternal Son of God, or if he was eternally begotten/generated, according to his Divine nature, then he CAN NOT be the Eternal God that inhabiteth eternity.

The reason why is this: "son" implies a father; and father in reference to a son, precedency in time, if not in nature as well. Father and son imply the ideal of generation~generation implies a time, in which it was effected, and time is also antecedent to such generation.

We know that Jesus Christ was both God that inhabiteth eternity and the Son of God that had a beginning when he was conceived by the Holy Ghost!

The eternal Sonship position is against the witness of God himself concerning his Son.

The incarnate Sonship protects the Deity of the Son of God, and confesses that he is both the I am that I am, and the Son of God and the Son of man.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker,

Trevor, fine~I agree the Word was made flesh and that Word was God!

I believe that "The Word" in John 1:1 is a personification similar to the Wise Woman Wisdom in Proverbs 8.

Also, we reject as pure heresy those who reject the deity of the Son of God as being the I AM THAT I AM.

I believe that the Yahweh Name has the meaning "He who will be" as previously discussed in this thread, and as expounded in my thread "The Yahweh Name".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

I believe that "The Word" in John 1:1 is a personification similar to the Wise Woman Wisdom in Proverbs 8.

Trevor, you are not following the verse careful enough, or, you just do not want to not hear what it is saying~you chose.

The verse truly explains itself with the words chose to be said to us by the Holy Ghost.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

In the beginning was the Word...In the beginning, before time, in eternity, there existed the eternal Word of God...so far there should be no problem

And the Word was with God~First, by the first phrase of 1:1, we understand the Word’s eternal existence. Second, by the next phrase, we understand He is a distinct Godhead person.

And the Word was God~Note the Holy Spirit’s clear use of words – the doctrine is simple: Word = God.

Trevor, John 1:14 said that your theory of the Word being a personification is wrong

The Word of God is God, was with God as a part of the Trinity, and so forth.

He was the eternal God Himself, for it says that He was in the beginning.

He was with God, for Jehovah is a trinity, and the Word is one of its three.

He was God, for the Word of God is nothing more than a pure divine Spirit.

He was with God in the beginning to prove equally independent existence.

He was the Creator God of all things, and without Him nothing was created.

Note very carefully that it was the Word, and not the Son, that is named here.

The Word and the Son are not the same Being/Person without clarification.

The Word became the Son by His incarnation in human flesh through Mary.

The Son is dependent on both the Word and His human nature for existence.

The Son was not made flesh, because the Son is flesh by His very existence.

Was made flesh~This is part of the great mystery of godliness – God was manifest in the flesh. 1st Timothy 3:16 which you still refuse to comment on.

The Word of God joining human flesh is not a mystery to us by revelation.

Modern translations remove God … lying with he, Christ, who, and which.

 

[Johan]

Greetings again Eleanor,

It appears to me that you are not really interested in discussing any passage, but want to continually repeat your list, like a supporter at a political rally waving a banner. I can understand how you have 2482 messages in such a short time. Thank you for your short time on this thread, via repetitious copy and paste.

I am open to discussing with others including @Red Baker if any one is interested in having a proper look at some of the passages mentioned and others passages, but preferably a few references at a time. Any passage nominated I reserve the right to state that I do not have a simple answer to one of them.

Kind regards
Trevor

Many Jewish thinkers have recognized there is Trinitarian evidence in the old testament and this video goes over these facts.

The Trinity in the Old Testament:

• The Trinity in the Old Testament


Sources:

Found JS - All about Betting

Soccer Betting Analysis - Get The Chance to find How Handicap Betting works in soccer betting

podcast.foundjs.org

The Bodies of God and the World of Ancient Israel - Dr. Benjamin Sommer

http://www.biblestudying.net/trinity9...

Genesis, The JPS Torah Commentary - Nahum Sarna

Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus - Dr. Michael Brown

The Works of Philo - Translated by C. D. Yonge

 

[Eleanor]

John is not quoting Greek Philosophy. He is basing his words on the concepts introduced in the OT.

You just make it up as you go along.

Please demonstrate where the word is said to be God in the OT.

Greek Philosophy eventually corrupted the Bible teaching concerning God and the end result was the adoption of the Doctrine of the Trinity.

A few quotations from the book History of the Dogma of the Deity of Christ by A Reville 1904 (from translation 1905)
Professor of the History of Religion at the College of France.

You expect to refute the word of God with human tradition?
And what authority does human tradition have over the word of God written?

You have no valid Biblical demonstration of your assertion.
I'm wasting my time here.

Your favourite list again.

Imagine that! Favoring the word of God in Christian doctrine!

My aim is to gradually whittle away at this subject, both positive and negative. I suggest that I have examined some of the favourite "Trinity verses" and shown what these verses actually teach and that these do not support the Trinity.

Au contraire. . .

Please direct me to the post where any of the following verses have been specifically addressed.

Jesus said that whoever rejects what his apostles say is rejecting what Jesus says (Lk 10:16).

Mt 3:3 and Lk 1:67-68, 76 regarding Isa 40:3 where Matthew and Luke say that Jesus is the YHWH of whom the voice calling in the wilderness (John the Baptist) prepared the way.

Ro 10:9, 13 regarding Joel 2:32 where Paul teaches Jesus is the YHWH of Joel's prophecy that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."

Heb 1:6 regarding Dt 32:43 where Paul quotes Moses' song referring to YHWH and says it applies to Jesus.

Rev 1:12-18 regarding Isa 44:6, 48:12 where John says the man in the vision is Jesus (1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.

Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 regarding Rev 1:8 where John says the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.

Rev 21:5-7 regarding Rev 20:11-13 where John says Jesus, the one on the throne (Rev 20:11-13 with Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39), is God (Rev 21:7).

Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 where John and Paul say the YHWH who created all things (Ge 1:1, Is 44:24, Jer 10:16) is Jesus.

So why are Jesus' words above spoken through his apostles being rejected?

Your OP (post #1) quotes my post #302 from another thread ("God-man"), wherein I presented the comprehensive Biblical testimony to the Biblical truth that Jesus is God.

You have yet to refute that Biblical demonstration, and until that is done, it remains a valid Biblical demonstration that Jesus is God, all objections and alternatives thereto not-with-standing.

 

[Eleanor]

Sister, the gospel was not sent to the Greek as of yet!

Eleanor, "overall" we agree on the deity of Jesus Christ being the I AM THAT I AM, just I and many like me, reject the Creeds of men that destroy Jesus' deity making him a begotten God!

However, the creeds do no such thing.
Rather, it is your misunderstanding of them that destroys Jesus' deity.

Jesus of Nazareth has two natures, human and divine, in one person.

The man/human nature of Jesus is begotten by God (Lk 1:35).
The eternal divine nature of the second person of the Trinity, God the Son, who proceeds out from within God the Father (Jn 8:42, 16:27, 28, 17:8), whom John names "the Word" (Jn 1:1), became flesh in Jesus of Nazareth (Jn 1;14).

That is the historical orthodox doctrine of the Trinity revealed in the NT.