Yahweh 301,302 or Trinity 301,302

[JIM]

Thank you for your short time on this thread, via repetitious copy and paste.

What a totally snide and unnecessary comment.

 

[Eleanor]

What a totally snide and unnecessary comment.

It's the only response one has when they have no Scripture to refute the demonstration (post #5), which is still yet to be addressed.

 

[CherubRam]

Trevor, fine~I agree the Word was made flesh and that Word was God! So, you explain to me, how this came about since we all know that Mary did not give birth to God ~ but, to God's Son, I have two questions for you to answer:

Question #1~ Can true Divinity be deprived or propagated? The very thought of this in a positive way is blasphemy against the God of the holy scriptures. What is real Divinity of the Most High God? The following attributes have ever been conceived as essential to it: Self-existence, Infinity, Independence, Omniscience, Omnipotence, Omnipresence, Immutability, eternal both ways, and Infinite in every way possible that is imaginable to the human mind.

Question #2~ Can there be true Divinity where any of these attributes are wanting in question #1? Surely not.

This is why we reject eternal generation of the Son of God to be accepted as biblical truth, and for those still holding such doctrine still contend that Jesus Christ is self-existence and independent"?

Those that hold to the incarnate Sonship and reject the eternal Sonship are the only ones that can explain and make sense that Jesus Christ is the Everlasting Father of all things~the I AM THAT I AM. We contend that Jesus Christ the Son of God possessed real Divinity that was underived in any sense. There is no possible medium. Either it is so, or not so. We know that Jesus Christ was God manifested in flesh ( 1st Timothy 3:16; 1st John 5:20; etc., verses you did not address ) before Jews and Gentiles and that he preached unto both, and both rejected him, and devils trembled before, for they knew him.

If we speak of Jesus Christ being the eternal Son of God, then we must be able to comprehensibly define our terms used or confess that we are using terms that teach doctrines against the Son of God, of which the eternal Sonship position does, for no man living can comprehensible define the eternal Sonship position, without making Jesus a begotten god. It can not be done. If one rejects Jesus as God manifest in the flesh, then they have more scriptures to address which they cannot do.

The sum of this point is this: Those that use terms, such as eternal Sonship, eternal generation, in relation to God or Christ, ought at least to be able and willing to tell their own meaning in the use of those terms, or not use them. Fair enough?

Also, those who reject Jesus being God manifest in the flesh must be able to address many scriptures that teach that he was indeed God in the beginning of Genesis 1:1

When stripped of all artificial verbiage, the naked question returns: Is Jesus Christ absolutely, eternally independently, underived, the very Supreme and eternal God, that the word of God declares him to be?

We say, yes he is! That is why we must reject eternal generation in any way presented to us by men who profess to be wise. Also, we reject as pure heresy those who reject the deity of the Son of God as being the I AM THAT I AM.

Speaking the truth is not blasphemy.

 

[CherubRam]

Throwing corrupted scriptures at the problem does not solve anything.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings JIM and Greetings again Eleanor and Red Baker

What a totally snide and unnecessary comment.

It's the only response one has when they have no Scripture to refute the demonstration (post #5), which is still yet to be addressed.

I decided to review some of the earlier Posts, and I wrote the following:
Post #1 TrevorL: This thread was started in response to an invitation by @Red Baker and @Eleanor for me to answer their comments and what they considered were supporting Scriptures contained in their respective Posts #301, #302 in the ongoing God-man thread in the Oneness sub-forum, and that thread was up to Post #403 on September 11th. My response was to start with one comment and Scripture reference from #301 1 John 5:7 and similarly from #302 John 10:30-33. I then added two of my own references, comprising 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Psalm 110:1 and my associated comments on these in support of my belief in One God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

Post #5 Eleanor: Brief response to my Post #1 regarding John 10:30-33 then the addition of content of her Post #302 from the other forum, and at first I assumed that this would be for easier reference. Then there is a brief response to 1 Corinthians 8:6 and Psalm 110:1. Finally a request, more like a demand, that I answer ALL of her Post #302 at once. From this I gather that Eleanor did not or does not accept what I suggested regarding dealing with one reference at a time. Eleanor has repeated her list or a smaller version and her demand that I answer ALL of her claims at once on numerous occasions, and these lists and demands are in Posts # 6, 9, 16, 23, 50, 71, 95, 102, 110, 119 and now again implied in the above Post #122..

JIM, I appreciate your intervention here. Your quotation of my comment comes from Post #20 and since then Eleanor has repeated her list at least 7 times. The full content of my response to Eleanor is the following:

It appears to me that you are not really interested in discussing any passage, but want to continually repeat your list, like a supporter at a political rally waving a banner. I can understand how you have 2482 messages in such a short time. Thank you for your short time on this thread, via repetitious copy and paste.

Perhaps I was a bit harsh at the time, but I find the repetition both annoying and unnecessary. @Red Baker was content to leave his list on the other thread, and he would be welcome to Post it here for reference, but I do not see the need for each list to be repeated 10 or more times.

Trevor, you are not following the verse careful enough, or, you just do not want to not hear what it is saying

No, I cannot accept your view of John 1:1.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Red Baker]

No, I cannot accept your view of John 1:1.

Kind regards
Trevor

I understand you not accepting it, but at least prove me wrong if you can~or, give your understanding of those two scriptures.

Also. Trevor, you have not as of yet commented on 1st Timothy 3:16 and 1st John 5:20 ~ have many more, but at least get started with these two.

 

[JIM]

I have avoided entering into this discussion until now. It is a topic, the realities of which are really quite beyond our knowledge and abilities to completely understand. We have such a limited understanding of even our own spiritual existence and attributes, let alone that of God. It is not pure happenstance that the God’s word for spirit in the Greek is πνεῦμα [pneuma] and in the Hebrew is rûach . Both carry the meaning of air, breath, wind, breeze, and spirit. In His discussion with Nicodemus in John, chapter three, Jesus said, “The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit" (vs.8). Thus, when the Bible tells us that “God is Spirit” (John 4:24), there is a certain vagueness about that description. You can't "count" air; it is everywhere; it is not constrained in the same way as solids or liquids such as the body of flesh. We simply do not have a physical experiential basis or background with spirit. The best that we have even today cannot really explain the human conscience or consciousness. We certainly do not have a good comprehensive understanding of the spirit or the spiritual realm.

Therefore, when the Bible tells us that God is Spirit and also that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, there is in that the same lack of comprehensive understanding of what that means. The Bible never really says that they are “three in one”. Clearly Jesus said, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). And there are more than a few inferences that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct spiritual entities that are in fact “one”. What that really means is, I believe, quite beyond our intellectual ability to comprehend. But regardless, we try to put some perspective to it even if we do not completely understand it.

Thus what does it really mean when we read in John 1 that “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God” (vvs 1,2)? I don’t want to address the question of the meaning of the Greek word, λόγος [logos]. However I would like to give you my thoughts on what this is saying relative to the person Jesus, specifically what is meant by John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us”.

I believe that the pre-incarnate Jesus was, just like the Father and the Holy Spirit, Spirit. I hold to the belief that the human being is a triune being. In Genesis, we read Gen 2:7 “then the LORD God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature”. Creature there is from the Hebrew “nephesh”, which is variously translated as creature, living being, or soul. From that I conclude that the human being is a “soul”; He is a triune being; he is a soul with a body and a spirit. Without getting into a discussion about the distinction between soul and spirit, I would simply argue that the creature, the living being that God created is composed of a body or flesh and a spirit. Each of us as a human being is composed of a body of flesh that is derived from our father and mother through procreation and a spirit that is derived from God (Zech 12:1).

In a very much similar way then, the man Jesus become a living being composed of a body of flesh derived from His father and mother; here His mother was Mary and is father was God, the Father, through the Holy Spirit. Unlike each of us who has a spirit formed in us by God, the spirit of the man Jesus was the pre-incarnate eternally existent Spirit called the Word in John 1:1. And in just that way "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us". Thus, Jesus Christ was indeed fully human and fully divine.

Personally I have no doubts at all that there are three distinct and separate beings, the Father, the Son (the Word), and the Holy Spirit. They are the one God. And I believe that is fully documented and fully consistent with the biblical record.

 

[Red Baker]

Speaking the truth is not blasphemy.

By saying what you are posting~are you saying that Mary gave birth to God?

Throwing corrupted scriptures at the problem does not solve anything.

Please explain and prove what scriptures are corrupted, and by whom.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Red Baker and JIM,

I understand you not accepting it, but at least prove me wrong if you can~or, give your understanding of those two scriptures.

Please refer to Posts #69,70,88,95,97,99,101,102,103,105,110,113,114,116,117,119 and 125.

I have avoided entering into this discussion until now. It is a topic, the realities of which are really quite beyond our knowledge and abilities to completely understand.

I appreciate your exposition but I differ on many aspects.

Therefore, when the Bible tells us that God is Spirit and also that God is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, there is in that the same lack of comprehensive understanding of what that means.

No, I believe that the Bible tells us there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father.

Clearly Jesus said, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). And there are more than a few inferences that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are three distinct spiritual entities that are in fact “one”. What that really means is, I believe, quite beyond our intellectual ability to comprehend. But regardless, we try to put some perspective to it even if we do not completely understand it.

I gave an explanation of John 10:30 in an early Post and my conclusion is different to what you are suggesting here.

I believe that the pre-incarnate Jesus was, just like the Father and the Holy Spirit, Spirit.

I do not accept the concept of the "pre-incarnate Jesus".

Without getting into a discussion about the distinction between soul and spirit

I have a different view of the soul and spirit of man. I believe that man is mortal and he returns to the dust when he dies Genesis 3:19, Daniel 12:2-3.

Unlike each of us who has a spirit formed in us by God, the spirit of the man Jesus was the pre-incarnate eternally existent Spirit called the Word in John 1:1. And in just that way "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us". Thus, Jesus Christ was indeed fully human and fully divine.

I reject this explanation. Jesus is a human, the Son of God.

Personally I have no doubts at all that there are three distinct and separate beings, the Father, the Son (the Word), and the Holy Spirit. They are the one God. And I believe that is fully documented and fully consistent with the biblical record.

I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted, sitting at the right hand of God the Father in God the Father's Throne, and he is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[JIM]

I believe that there is One God, Yahweh, God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is a human, now exalted, sitting at the right hand of God the Father in God the Father's Throne, and he is the Son of God by birth, character and resurrection.

And I reject the idea that there is anything physical in heaven. I believe the reference to Jesus sitting at the right hand of God has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus as a human being.

 

[Red Baker]

And I reject the idea that there is anything physical in heaven. I believe the reference to Jesus sitting at the right hand of God has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus as a human being.

Greetings Jim, while I reject Trevor's teaching as heresy, I also reject your understanding on a few things, but also know you at least accept the deity of Jesus Christ, even though a little strange way of presenting it~well, maybe not to some, but to me it is. For now.............

Jim, Jesus in his glorified body ascended up into the heaven a cloud received him OUT OF THE SIGHT of those beholding him.

Act 1:9-11~"And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

Jim, this being said, I also understand that a gloried spiritual body can disappear and reappear at will/thought in a different form!

So, once out of their sight, we do not know what Jesus did next ~ and if he is using his spiritual glorified body now, or will wait until the resurrection/second coming, which is all one and the same. Somethings are not revealed to us, this being one of them. But, he does have one and can used it at will. Our glorified bodies will be like his body of power and glory, beyond our capability of comprehending it now~ by the fact we live in this weak body of sin and death ~ But, we do read about it in the scriptures and have certain visions of what it will be like.

I have a few things to address in your post above~now I'm just pondering what you posted.

 

[Eleanor]

Greetings again Eleanor

Eleanor did not or does not accept what I suggested regarding dealing with one reference at a time. Eleanor has repeated her list or a smaller version and her demand that I answer ALL of her claims at once on numerous occasions, and these lists and demands are in Posts # 6, 9, 16, 23, 50, 71, 95, 102, 110, 119 and now again implied in the above Post #122..

I find the repetition both annoying and unnecessary.

What do you find regarding your failure to address any of the Scriptures I presented all those times?

I find your avoidance to be demonstration that you cannot overcome the Biblical testimony disagreeing with your assertion.

And that is where you currently remain.

 

[JIM]

Greetings Jim, while I reject Trevor's teaching as heresy, I also reject your understanding on a few things, but also know you at least accept the deity of Jesus Christ, even though a little strange way of presenting it~well, maybe not to some, but to me it is. For now.............

Jim, Jesus in his glorified body ascended up into the heaven a cloud received him OUT OF THE SIGHT of those beholding him.


Jim, this being said, I also understand that a gloried spiritual body can disappear and reappear at will/thought in a different form!

So, once out of their sight, we do not know what Jesus did next ~ and if he is using his spiritual glorified body now, or will wait until the resurrection/second coming, which is all one and the same. Somethings are not revealed to us, this being one of them. But, he does have one and can used it at will. Our glorified bodies will be like his body of power and glory, beyond our capability of comprehending it now~ by the fact we live in this weak body of sin and death ~ But, we do read about it in the scriptures and have certain visions of what it will be like.

I have a few things to address in your post above~now I'm just pondering what you posted.

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

Joh_17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Clearly the glory that Jesus had with The Father before the world existed was not with a human body that began with his physical birth of a human baby.

And also, since John was one of the disciples who was there when Jesus ascended, he clearly knew what he was seeing. Since he says "what we will be has not yet appeared", it seems rather obvious that it will not be anything like His physical earthly body. Moreover, Paul declares, "
But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain" (1 Cor 15:35-37).

He later says, 1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

I should not have to point out that we haven't a clue about what a spiritual body is. All we know is that there is one. I personally do not think it has any physical characteristics at all. And besides, given that this physical body is the source of nearly all sin, I really look forward to not being burdened by it in the next world.

 

[Eleanor]

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.

Joh_17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Clearly the glory that Jesus had with The Father before the world existed was not with a human body that began with his physical birth of a human baby.

And also, since John was one of the disciples who was there when Jesus ascended, he clearly knew what he was seeing. Since he says "what we will be has not yet appeared", it seems rather obvious that it will not be anything like His physical earthly body. Moreover, Paul declares, "
But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?" You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain" (1 Cor 15:35-37).

He later says, 1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

I should not have to point out that we haven't a clue about what a spiritual body is. All we know is that there is one. I personally do not think it has any physical characteristics at all.

Au contraire. . .

Paul has told us specifically what a spiritual physical body is in 1 Co 15:42-44.
We have a natural physical body on earth, and at the resurrection we have a spiritual physical body.

That spiritual physical body is imperishable, sinless (glorious), powerful.
The natural physical body is perishable, sinful and weak.

Jesus' had just such a physical spiritual body at his resurrection (Lk 24:37-39).

 

[JIM]

Au contraire. . .

Paul has told us specifically what a spiritual physical body is in 1 Co 15:42-44.
We have a natural physical body on earth, and at the resurrection we have a spiritual physical body.

That spiritual physical body is imperishable, sinless (glorious), powerful.
The natural physical body is perishable, sinful and weak.

Jesus' had just such a physical spiritual body at his resurrection (Lk 24:37-39).

Are you serious??

Luk 24:37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does NOT have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

In fact Jesus says there that is was NOT a spiritual body. Rather it was the same exact body that He always had, just with the wounds (John 20:24-29) of the crucifixion.

 

[Eleanor]

Are you serious??

As serious as a heart attack.

Luk 24:37 But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit.
Luk 24:38 And he said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does NOT have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

In fact Jesus says there that is was NOT a spiritual body. Rather it was the same exact body that He always had, just with the wounds (John 20:24-29) of the crucifixion.

Jesus used "spirit "to mean bodiless, a ghost.

Paul 101:

However, spiritual" in Paul's use does not mean immaterial, without body, or non-physical.
It means of the realm of the Holy Spirit.

The "spiritual" physical body is not immaterial or non-physical.
It is physical, imperishable, sinless, spiritually powerful, as was Jesus' resurrection body.

It is the opposite of the "natural" physical body which is perishable, sinful, spiritually weak.

 

[JIM]

As serious as a heart attack.

Jesus used "spirit "to mean bodiless, a ghost.

Paul 101:

However, spiritual" in Paul's use does not mean immaterial, without body, or non-physical.
It means of the realm of the Holy Spirit.

The "spiritual" physical body is not immaterial or non-physical.
It is physical, imperishable, sinless, spiritually powerful.

It is the opposite of the "natural" physical body which is perishable, sinful, spiritually weak.

Paul 101 developed and taught by Eleanor having nothing to do with Paul's teaching.

 

[Eleanor]

Paul 101 developed and taught by Eleanor having nothing to do with Paul's teaching.

Your lack of NT knowledge is showing.

Do some serious extensive homework, and then get back to me.

 

[Johan]

As you are not interested in Biblically showing the error of my argument, following, because you cannot. Therefore, it remains unrefuted.

Whoever rejects the words of Jesus' apostles are rejecting his words (Lk 10:16).
Why do you reject Jesus' words of his apostles, following?

Mt 3:3 and Lk 1:67-68, 76 regarding Isa 40:3 where Matthew and Luke say that Jesus is the YHWH of whom the voice calling in the wilderness (John the Baptist) prepared the way.

Ro 10:9, 13 regarding Joel 2:32 where Paul teaches Jesus is the YHWH of Joel's prophecy that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."

Heb 1:6 regarding Dt 32:43 where Paul quotes Moses' song referring to YHWH and says it applies to Jesus.

Rev 1:12-18 regarding Isa 44:6, 48:12 where John reports the man in the vision is Jesus (1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.

Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 regarding Rev 1:8 where John reports the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.

Rev 21:5-7 regarding Rev 20:11-13 where John reports Jesus, the one on the throne (Rev 20:11-13 with Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39), is God (Rev 21:7).

Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 where John and Paul say the YHWH who created all things (Ge 1:1, Is 44:24, Jer 10:16) is Jesus.

Yup-correct.

 

[Johan]

As you are not interested in Biblically showing the error of my argument, following, because you cannot. Therefore, it remains unrefuted.

Whoever rejects the words of Jesus' apostles are rejecting his words (Lk 10:16).
Why do you reject Jesus' words of his apostles, following?

Mt 3:3 and Lk 1:67-68, 76 regarding Isa 40:3 where Matthew and Luke say that Jesus is the YHWH of whom the voice calling in the wilderness (John the Baptist) prepared the way.

Ro 10:9, 13 regarding Joel 2:32 where Paul teaches Jesus is the YHWH of Joel's prophecy that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved."

Heb 1:6 regarding Dt 32:43 where Paul quotes Moses' song referring to YHWH and says it applies to Jesus.

Rev 1:12-18 regarding Isa 44:6, 48:12 where John reports the man in the vision is Jesus (1:18, 2:8) who identifies himself as the First and the Last which is YHWH identification of himself.

Rev 21:6, 22:12-13 regarding Rev 1:8 where John reports the man in the vision (Jesus) identifies himself as the Alpha and Omega of Rev 1:8, which is YHWH.

Rev 21:5-7 regarding Rev 20:11-13 where John reports Jesus, the one on the throne (Rev 20:11-13 with Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39), is God (Rev 21:7).

Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 where John and Paul say the YHWH who created all things (Ge 1:1, Is 44:24, Jer 10:16) is Jesus.

Yup-correct.