Why do Calvinists debate?

[Mercy_Shown]

A form of force? Interesting. God calls it grace.

Why did you not deal with the argument? Instead, you just claim God calls it Grace. Should I answer in kind and say, "God calls it a false doctrine?"

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Those who insist that it is forced CANNOT be corrected. They don't WANT to be corrected. It is how they argue against it and if that is taken away they have NOTHING. I can't do someone else's work for them. The doctrines of grace contain more than the I, and they all work together, and can be tracked down as to their accuracy in the scriptures.

Do you consider Lazarus was forced out of the grave? That Jesus was?

What? I did not know it was Lazerus' desire and will to be in the grave.

Do you consider that you or anyone was forced to be born?

Did they not want to be born? If so, then yes. But I think assigning a desire or will to a fetus is a bit of a stretch.

Do you consider God forced Israel out of Egypt? Etc. etc.

Did they want to be slaves in Egypt? If they did, then yes, but I don't think they did.

So why do you and other consider it force if the Holy Spirit regenerates (born again from above) and brings one our to bondage in the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of the Son of His love?

You claim that the unregenerated heart is at enmity to God, that it is against him and I think there are plenty of verses to support your position on that. S according to reformed theology, God went into hearts like this and changed them against the person's will and without their consent.

So EXPLAIN to me how God does the above. Explain to me how the Son was able to remain the divine Son and come to us as a man. Explain to me how Mary became pregnant as a virgin. Explain to me how God can be self existent and eternal.

God gives the explanations He desires to give and one of those is that He is love. Love never fails. Love is not consigning people to damnation who never had a chance.

Have you never heard that God's people walk by faith and without faith we cannot please Him? Have you never heard that we are to be grateful, especially for His saving grace of saying, "If I didn't make my own choice, if I did not participate in my own salvation, then I don't want that God.

The bible says to call upon the name of the Lord and all who do will be saved. According to your logic, they are participating in their salvation.

It kind of indicates a heart---from which our will takes its signals and actions---that is still clinging to its own desire for autonomy and that will not fully surrender to God being over him. An area in need of sanctification.

This is force. God saying, "I will change your heart no matter what you may want because I will make you want what I want."

A regenerated heart does not need to be dragged into the kingdom by force. It comes willingly, joyfully, desperate and grateful for the living water to drink.

Regenerated whether the person wants it or not. That is force.

 

[Arial]

What? I did not know it was Lazerus' desire and will to be in the grave.

What does that have to do with anything? How about you just answer the question and the others that went along with it. A classic way of debating when one cannot actually address head on what is being given, since the Bible itself won't support it, and logic makes those particular questions unanswerable without the person admitting that they choose to use the word "force"when it comes to irresistible grace, choose to refuse to see it any other way. In fact I think such ones actually do understand that it isn't force, but they hate the doctrine, want to argue against it, think they can no matter how many times they fail, and so they use the word "force" because that is all they have to argue with, and to invoke an emotional reaction.

Oh how we stil stand like children, chin thrust out, arms crossed, stomping our foot, saying, "You can't make me!" Oh how deeply in love with ourselves we still remain, defiant in the face of a power greater than ourselves who demands we submit to Him.

 

[Arial]

Did they not want to be born? If so, then yes. But I think assigning a desire or will to a fetus is a bit of a stretch.

That is beside the point. Completely. Also a straw man because I did not assign a desire or will to a fetus. I asked if we are forced to be born?

But imagine this. A person at enmity with God, who has no heartfelt desire for Him, can't even stand the thought that He would not give us a free will not subject to Him, willing himself to be born again of God. We did not will our first birth, and we do not will our new birth. Why would one be different than the other? Why did Jesus call it born again?

Did they want to be slaves in Egypt? If they did, then yes, but I don't think they did.

Any one of them could have stayed behind. Many did want to turn back. But again, you do not actually answer the question but avoid it by deflection. The Bible says He BROUGHT them out. And it was the fulfillment of a promise given centuries before. Think God for a change.

You claim that the unregenerated heart is at enmity to God, that it is against him and I think there are plenty of verses to support your position on that. S according to reformed theology, God went into hearts like this and changed them against the person's will and without their consent.

Think about it a bit more. If they did not will and would not give their consent, how else are they supposed to consent unless God does something in them and for them? Why do you see that as force instead of grace?

God gives the explanations He desires to give and one of those is that He is love.

That is what is a what not a how. It explains nothing.

Love never fails. Love is not consigning people to damnation who never had a chance.

And yet more are damned than those who are not. Narrow is the gate and all. Quite the paradox, but the solution is not to then not only have love fail, but also have a God who is helpless in the face of man's will and choices. If you go that route you will have to ignore or find a way of twisting those scriptures that reveal Him as sovereign. And just saying that He sent Jesus to die on the cross to restore our freewill so we could choose Him, won't cut it. You will need to demonstrate from scripture that He did that, that He said He did it. Asking you or anyone else to do that is much like asking a Catholic to demonstrate from scripture that the RCC is the one true church of Christ. Neither thing can be done.

The bible says to call upon the name of the Lord and all who do will be saved. According to your logic, they are participating in their salvation.

No that is not according to my logic. According to your view, when it is imposed over mine, and mine is ignored, would you think such a thing.

This is force. God saying, "I will change your heart no matter what you may want because I will make you want what I want."

Okey dokey. Personally it made me buckle with gratitude. God is faithful, I am not. I can fully trust God with my life to do what is best for me. I can not trust myself to do the same or even to know what that is in all situations. I am not trusting in my choice to have applied the work of Christ to me. I have a more reliable source to place that trust in. The Faithful One. If He gave me to Jesus, and that is why I believe, there is no question or doubt, that He will always lead me in paths of righteousness, make my paths straight before me, carry me through trouble, bring me safely to the Promised Land.

Regenerated whether the person wants it or not. That is force.

Astonishing that you cannot read that sentence and not see that you have an extremely elevated view of mankind, and a view of God about the size of an ant. No matter what you tell yourself.

 

[Arial]

Why did you not deal with the argument? Instead, you just claim God calls it Grace. Should I answer in kind and say, "God calls it a false doctrine?"

Because I have been dealing with the argument non stop.

 

[GeneZ]

Those who insist that it is forced CANNOT be corrected. They don't WANT to be corrected.

There are different ways to be found when not being able to be corrected ...


A.) Because they are implacable, and keep refusing to change their thinking.

B.) Because nothing substantial is being offered that makes sense to be corrected with.



I hope you know someone who does know how to answer my question.
Someone I can dialogue with.

thanks.... grace and peace.

 

[Carbon]

Those who insist that it is forced CANNOT be corrected. They don't WANT to be corrected. It is how they argue against it and if that is taken away they have NOTHING. I can't do someone else's work for them. The doctrines of grace contain more than the I, and they all work together, and can be tracked down as to their accuracy in the scriptures.

Amen.

Do you consider Lazarus was forced out of the grave? That Jesus was? Do you consider that you or anyone was forced to be born? Do you consider God forced Israel out of Egypt? Etc. etc. So why do you and other consider it force if the Holy Spirit regenerates (born again from above) and brings one our to bondage in the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of the Son of His love?

Do they consider themselves forced into believing? Assuming they are born again.

So EXPLAIN to me how God does the above. Explain to me how the Son was able to remain the divine Son and come to us as a man. Explain to me how Mary became pregnant as a virgin. Explain to me how God can be self existent and eternal.

Have you never heard that God's people walk by faith and without faith we cannot please Him? Have you never heard that we are to be grateful, especially for His saving grace of saying, "If I didn't make my own choice, if I did not participate in my own salvation, then I don't want that God.

It kind of indicates a heart---from which our will takes its signals and actions---that is still clinging to its own desire for autonomy and that will not fully surrender to God being over him. An area in need of sanctification.

Preach it!

A regenerated heart does not need to be dragged into the kingdom by force. It comes willingly, joyfully, desperate and grateful for the living water to drink.

Amen!

 

[GeneZ]

I see it that way also because if anyone can go into a person's heart uninvited and change that heart 180 degrees from what it was without the consent or knowledge of the person, even though the person was unaware of it, that is a form of force. If I understand it correctly reformed theology teaches that a person is born with a will that is against God. That would mean that God changes the will to be for him going against that person's will. That is force as far as I can see.

The problem I see with TULIP is that it was pioneering a way out from the tyrannical oppressive inane thinking of the Catholic church which
had become corrupted over time.

What the TULIP formula presents is a person that God can not save. For if the soul (not the flesh) is totally depraved?
There would be nothing to save....

Its the soul, not the flesh, that God saves.
Prior to the application of "enabling" grace, a person's flesh dominated and controlled the thinking of the soul.
The soul being unable to over ride the impulses of the flesh does not mean its any more depraved than a weak
person being a slave under the whip is depraved. For the powerless soul has no idea it can have a choice.

When God administers grace during His drawing of a person that person's soul is being momentarily freed from
the oppression of the flesh, and the privacy of that soul's own thinking, will make a choice it it wishes were true.

Grace breaks up the power of the flesh long enough, so that an otherwise powerless soul is able to make a choice.
That is why we must be saved by grace.

The concept of irresistible grace trains the believer to have self hatred and to see oneself as a drone to be controlled
by God to do His sovereign will..... No freedom. Only Sovereignty ruling as a benevolent dictator.

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty” (2 Corinthians 3:17)

Liberty, because Grace shuts down the power of the depraved flesh.. allowing the soul to choose for truth, so the Holy Spirit
can then take over, and enable that soul to walk in truth.

Its simple. And, does not require harmful self hatred to do God's will.


grace and peace ..................

 

[Carbon]

Not to defend @Mr GLee , but where does Scripture say Jesus "repented" at John's baptism?

Oh, it must be there somewhere....

 

[GeneZ]

Those who insist that it is forced CANNOT be corrected. They don't WANT to be corrected. It is how they argue against it and if that is taken away they have NOTHING. I can't do someone else's work for them. The doctrines of grace contain more than the I, and they all work together, and can be tracked down as to their accuracy in the scriptures.

Do you consider Lazarus was forced out of the grave? That Jesus was? Do you consider that you or anyone was forced to be born? Do you consider God forced Israel out of Egypt? Etc. etc. So why do you and other consider it force if the Holy Spirit regenerates (born again from above) and brings one our to bondage in the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of the Son of His love?

So EXPLAIN to me how God does the above. Explain to me how the Son was able to remain the divine Son and come to us as a man. Explain to me how Mary became pregnant as a virgin. Explain to me how God can be self existent and eternal.

Have you never heard that God's people walk by faith and without faith we cannot please Him? Have you never heard that we are to be grateful, especially for His saving grace of saying, "If I didn't make my own choice, if I did not participate in my own salvation, then I don't want that God.

It kind of indicates a heart---from which our will takes its signals and actions---that is still clinging to its own desire for autonomy and that will not fully surrender to God being over him. An area in need of sanctification.

A regenerated heart does not need to be dragged into the kingdom by force. It comes willingly, joyfully, desperate and grateful for the living water to drink.

Interesting points as they may be. Many requiring a response that is affirmative.
They still do nothing to explain how what you refer to as "irresistible" grace would function.

 

[Arial]

Interesting points as they may be. Many requiring a response that is affirmative.
They still do nothing to explain how what you refer to as "irresistible" grace would function.

I have told you in every post since you first asked. You won't accept the answer and so say it isn't one. I do not care whether you or anyone else sees it for what it is. I do not care how many hypothetical claim to be dissatisfied with what is presented and yet won't accept what is given. YOu answered none of the questions I posed to you that should have shown you how stupid your question is, and how stupid your responses are. And you made no attempt to explain any of the things I asked you to explain. Why not, since you demand of me repeatedly to explain something to you.

You are a troll, either a sock puppet or are sent here for the express purpose of disruption with stupidity. You are not doing yourself or anyone else any favors. Staff will not tolerate it very long.

Hope that helps.

 

[GeneZ]

I have told you in every post since you first asked. You won't accept the answer and so say it isn't one. I do not care whether you or anyone else sees it for what it is. I do not care how many hypothetical claim to be dissatisfied with what is presented and yet won't accept what is given. YOu answered none of the questions I posed to you that should have shown you how stupid your question is, and how stupid your responses are.

You are a troll, either a sock puppet or are sent here for the express purpose of disruption with stupidity. You are not doing yourself or anyone else any favors. Staff will not tolerate it very long.

Hope that helps.

OK... walk away please. That is your answer.

The questions you ask are interesting. They show how God makes a decision for us when we were not able to make a decision.
Like with dead Lazarus being commanded to come out of the grave. But, that does not explain how God "makes a man to believe"
when that man is yet physically alive....

And, it rips open a huge can of worms what you claim.

Because of what you claimed were true?

No one should go to Hell... and God would be delinquent for allowing Satan to remain as he is.

That's the contradiction of the claim everything rests upon the sovereign will of God.

And? God would have no right to judging and condemning anyone based upon we have no choice in our decisions.

Many think Calvinists are mildly insane to think some of the things that they do.
But, if one has a tendency to see themself as an elitist?
Such an understanding will suit such a mind just fine.

That is what I have analyzed as being the root of the problem.

 

[Arial]

There are different ways to be found when not being able to be corrected ...


A.) Because they are implacable, and keep refusing to change their thinking.

B.) Because nothing substantial is being offered that makes sense to be corrected with.

Or it can be A and they tell themselves and everyone else that it is B.


Explain to me how a virgin conceived a child. Explain to me how God can be triune. Explain to me to me how the SOn of God can leave the Godhead, keep His divinity and also be a man. Explain to me how Lazarus could be four days in the grave, bound in grave clothes, and come walking out of the tomb because Jesus called him. While your at it explain God. Go ahead. I'll be waiting. Unless you can do it, why in the world should I believe any of it? (For those who may be reading and do not know who I am, that last sentence is sarcasm based on the stupidity of being asked to explain how regeneration works---a subquestion of being asked to explain how irresistible grace is not force. Simply explaining what it is and what it means evidently is not enough.)

I hope you know someone who does know how to answer my question.
Someone I can dialogue with.

You don't dialog with anyone about anything. The last time we got into it over some Reformed doctrine you finally had to run away, blaming others for your failure to defend your position. Who sent you back? Your question has been answered. YOu won't accept the answer because you refuse to let go of the concept of force in irresistible grace. That's on you, not me.

 

[Arial]

The questions you ask are interesting. They show how God makes a decision for us when we were not able to make a decision.
Like with dead Lazarus being commanded to come out of the grave. But, that does not explain how God "makes a man to believe"
when that man is yet physically alive....

No one was making a decision in any of the questions or in any of the things I asked you to explain. How does God make a man believe when He is yet physically alive? Well it certainly wouldn't happen when he was dead! But how does God make a man alive when he is physically dead? How does He cause a man who has been dead for days and bound by grave clothes, come walking out of the tomb with all his bodily functions in perfect condition? Explain that to me. You are asking of me what you will not do yourself. You have a different standard for me than the one you hold yourself to.

But God does not MAKE a man believe, He causes Him to believe. Hey, don't get upset. It's a good thing! And there is a difference. How He does this not a soul on the planet could tell you. We only know He does because He says He does. John 3. By the action of the Holy Spirit in a person he can now hear and understand the gospel, spiritual things, which He could not before (1 Cor 2:14). And when he hears it and understands it, he quite naturally believes it.That is what we are told, and not only in those two places, and if it not enough for you, that's on you, not me. People get so locked into this idea of free will they don't even notice that not once is the choice of a natural man associated with believing----they hallucinate it into the text. The gospel is not about choosing---it is about believing. Read your Bible and you will see that is so.

Because of what you claimed were true?

No one should go to Hell... and God would be delinquent for allowing Satan to remain as he is.

That's the contradiction of the claim everything rests upon the sovereign will of God.

And? God would have no right to judging and condemning anyone based upon we have no choice in our decisions.

That is just you judging God, not Calvinism. Read. Your. Bible.

Many think Calvinists are mildly insane to think some of the things that they do.
But, if one has a tendency to see themself as an elitist?
Such an understanding will suit such a mind just fine.

By many, do you mean you? And what does that matter anyway? No doubt many though Moses, and Abraham and Jesus were at least mildly insane if not completely off their rocker. And atheists think Christians are insane for believing there is a God. What kind of a defense is that? You also presume to know all Calvinist and can look inside their mind so can declare they see themselves as elitist, when actually that in itself is your own hubris. A false humility, that says I am wise enough, and smart enough, to choose Christ and those who reject Him are just my inferiours---while at the same time denying that would be the case if their heresy were true.

Hope that helps.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

The problem I see with TULIP is that it was pioneering a way out from the tyrannical oppressive inane thinking of the Catholic church which
had become corrupted over time.

What the TULIP formula presents is a person that God can not save. For if the soul (not the flesh) is totally depraved?
There would be nothing to save....

Its the soul, not the flesh, that God saves.
Prior to the application of "enabling" grace, a person's flesh dominated and controlled the thinking of the soul.
The soul being unable to over ride the impulses of the flesh does not mean its any more depraved than a weak
person being a slave under the whip is depraved. For the powerless soul has no idea it can have a choice.

When God administers grace during His drawing of a person that person's soul is being momentarily freed from
the oppression of the flesh, and the privacy of that soul's own thinking, will make a choice it it wishes were true.

Grace breaks up the power of the flesh long enough, so that an otherwise powerless soul is able to make a choice.
That is why we must be saved by grace.

The concept of irresistible grace trains the believer to have self hatred and to see oneself as a drone to be controlled
by God to do His sovereign will..... No freedom. Only Sovereignty ruling as a benevolent dictator.

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty” (2 Corinthians 3:17)

Liberty, because Grace shuts down the power of the depraved flesh.. allowing the soul to choose for truth, so the Holy Spirit
can then take over, and enable that soul to walk in truth.

Its simple. And, does not require harmful self hatred to do God's will.


grace and peace ..................

Amen!

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Because I have been dealing with the argument non stop.

So have I and on multiple fronts. One thing I have discovered is that Calvinists are passionate about their doctrine.

 

[GeneZ]

Or it can be A and they tell themselves and everyone else that it is B.


Explain to me how a virgin conceived a child. Explain to me how God can be triune. Explain to me to me how the SOn of God can leave the Godhead, keep His divinity and also be a man. Explain to me how Lazarus could be four days in the grave, bound in grave clothes, and come walking out of the tomb because Jesus called him. While your at it explain God. Go ahead. I'll be waiting. Unless you can do it, why in the world should I believe any of it? (For those who may be reading and do not know who I am, that last sentence is sarcasm based on the stupidity of being asked to explain how regeneration works---a subquestion of being asked to explain how irresistible grace is not force. Simply explaining what it is and what it means evidently is not enough.)

You don't dialog with anyone about anything. The last time we got into it over some Reformed doctrine you finally had to run away, blaming others for your failure to defend your position. Who sent you back? Your question has been answered. YOu won't accept the answer because you refuse to let go of the concept of force in irresistible grace. That's on you, not me.

I will leave you be......

If you can answer the real question asked feel free to jump in. .

 

[Carbon]

The problem I see with TULIP is that it was pioneering a way out from the tyrannical oppressive inane thinking of the Catholic church which
had become corrupted over time.

Actually, I think if you sincerely study these things you will find Arminianism isn't very far from Catholicism, its also a quick road back. Where Calvinism differs from both, it is biblically based.

What the TULIP formula presents is a person that God can not save. For if the soul (not the flesh) is totally depraved?
There would be nothing to save....

Man can do nothing to save himself, that is why God must do it.

Its the soul, not the flesh, that God saves.

Prior to the application of "enabling" grace, a person's flesh dominated and controlled the thinking of the soul.

Enabling grace? What's that, the type of grace that enables a man to save himself?

The soul being unable to over ride the impulses of the flesh does not mean its any more depraved than a weak
person being a slave under the whip is depraved. For the powerless soul has no idea it can have a choice.

Sorry friend but you cannot prove any of this with scripture. Sounds like wishful thinking.

When God administers grace during His drawing of a person that person's soul is being momentarily freed from
the oppression of the flesh, and the privacy of that soul's own thinking, will make a choice it it wishes were true.

So this is god's way of working with man, he just makes it so the flesh, for a moment cannot affect the person, so the person can act freely to save himself? And this is taught where?

Grace breaks up the power of the flesh long enough, so that an otherwise powerless soul is able to make a choice.

To make a choice? Man must make that choice to save himself?

That is why we must be saved by grace.

So far you have not explained saved by grace biblically.

The concept of irresistible grace trains the believer to have self hatred and to see oneself as a drone to be controlled
by God to do His sovereign will..... No freedom. Only Sovereignty ruling as a benevolent dictator.

Wow, you have no idea what the meaning of grace is.

“Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty” (2 Corinthians 3:17)

And what are you trying to prove by pulling this verse out of context?

Liberty, because Grace shuts down the power of the depraved flesh.. allowing the soul to choose for truth, so the Holy Spirit
can then take over, and enable that soul to walk in truth.

Wow, thats a strange gospel.

Its simple. And, does not require harmful self hatred to do God's will.

It's obviously simple to teach a false gospel.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Actually, I think if you sincerely study these things you will find Arminianism isn't very far from Catholicism, its also a quick road back. Where Calvinism differs from both, it is biblically based.

That is true, but Calvinism is not far from Phariseeism. Calvinism is no more biblically based than Arminianism. They both are based on a bias that filters which texts to emphasize and which to rationalize. Both are theologically following man and not God, but among the adherents of both, there are many saints of God.

Most people are really defending their egos and opinions, which is why so many of these debates end in acrimony. Acrimony is definitely not an attribute God desires in His children.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Man can do nothing to save himself, that is why God must do it.

I hear that a lot from Reformed theology, as if calling on the name of the Lord constitutes self-salvation. Furthermore, some would argue that making a choice in the light God sheds upon them is self-salvation. But this takes the concept into the realm of the ridiculous.

On the other hand, the inclination that I can make a choice without God's quickening is hubris and over-inflates the truth about what God does for us. The thought that I can add one wit to God's magnificent salvation only proves that a person has never seen themselves through God's eyes.

God saves all who will receive him to the uttermost. He invites and woos the hearts of all men, but many will not be moved.