Why do Calvinists debate?

[eclipseEventSigns]

And because few alive today began their Christian journey on solid footing but rather on a heresy, and all they know of it is their opinion of it, often given to them by their church, and that is that it is not only false but evil. Therefore they come on forums and spout these things as though they were the absolute truth which requires a response, correction, and clarification.

As I pointed out originally, what exactly do you mean by this statement?

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Yes he had sorrow knowing the end from the beginning.

He did not change the salvation program .He turned his sorrow into Joy.

2 Corinthians 7:10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Repentance is a two fold work of God .Not of powerless dying mankind of our own self . First he gives us ears to hear, It turns us giving us power to perform the good works He works in us, with us (Philippian 2:13)

In the parable below he uses a Bullock as a unclean animal to represent non-believers

Jeremiah 31:18-20King James Version18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

Eternal God does all the turning.

This is why I caution people not to use the OT to define God. You have had to do a lot of extra-biblical explaining to get by these texts because you believe that God is omnipotent as I do. I don't believe God was revealed to mankind until Jesus came to do it.

 

[GeneZ]

Just so you know. No matter how many times, how many different people, and to how many people opposed to Calvinism, a Calvinist discusses the doctrine of Irresistible grace---those opposed will still continue to call it force. Even though it isn't force.

I said its commonly seen seen as being forced.

That is why I asked you to show how it works.

That way those who insist that it appears to be forced can be corrected and know how it works.

As for me? Irresistible grace? Unless someone can clarify it? Appears to be forced.

So...

If you can not explain it?

Just say so, and I'll move on.

grace and peace ...................

 

[Mr GLee]

This is why I caution people not to use the OT to define God. You have had to do a lot of extra-biblical explaining to get by these texts because you believe that God is omnipotent as I do. I don't believe God was revealed to mankind until Jesus came to do it.

The Holy Spirit does all the explaining.

God revealed himself to Adam.

God is not a man

 

[Mr GLee]

God set out the rules for kings in Israel hundreds of years before Saul.
[Deu 17:14-15 LSB] 14 "When you enter the land which Yahweh your God gives you, and you possess it and live in it, and you say, 'I will set a king over me like all the nations who are around me,' 15 you shall surely set a king over you whom Yahweh your God chooses, [one] from among your brothers you shall set as king over yourselves; you may not put a foreigner over yourselves who is not your brother.

It was never the idea of God to set up a Pagn foundation

God had already given over the atheist Jew to do that which they should of, asked for a King. The abomination of desolation .. .dying mankind in the place of our invisible God.

The first century reformation restored the government of faith back to the period of Judges, before there were KIngs in Israel the pagan foundation,

 

[Mercy_Shown]

The Holy Spirit does all the explaining.

God revealed himself to Adam.

God is not a man

God created Adam and he was sinless and perfect. The Bible says that only Jesus could fully reveal the Father to us. Now you have made many explanations as to what God's repenting means but they are all based on your NT understanding of God. In the OT when people built the Tower of Babel God had to come down to take a look and see what was going on. Is that the way God is? I don't think so. I think He knew everything there was to know already.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

I said its commonly seen seen as being forced.

That is why I asked you to show how it works.

That way those who insist that it appears to be forced can be corrected and know how it works.

As for me? Irresistible grace? Unless someone can clarify it? Appears to be forced.

So...

If you can not explain it?

Just say so, and I'll move on.

grace and peace ...................

I see it that way also because if anyone can go into a person's heart uninvited and change that heart 180 degrees from what it was without the consent or knowledge of the person, even though the person was unaware of it, that is a form of force. If I understand it correctly reformed theology teaches that a person is born with a will that is against God. That would mean that God changes the will to be for him going against that person's will. That is force as far as I can see.

 

[Arial]

I said its commonly seen seen as being forced.

That is why I asked you to show how it works.

That way those who insist that it appears to be forced can be corrected and know how it works.

As for me? Irresistible grace? Unless someone can clarify it? Appears to be forced.

So...

If you can not explain it?

Just say so, and I'll move on.

grace and peace ...................

Those who insist that it is forced CANNOT be corrected. They don't WANT to be corrected. It is how they argue against it and if that is taken away they have NOTHING. I can't do someone else's work for them. The doctrines of grace contain more than the I, and they all work together, and can be tracked down as to their accuracy in the scriptures.

Do you consider Lazarus was forced out of the grave? That Jesus was? Do you consider that you or anyone was forced to be born? Do you consider God forced Israel out of Egypt? Etc. etc. So why do you and other consider it force if the Holy Spirit regenerates (born again from above) and brings one our to bondage in the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of the Son of His love?

So EXPLAIN to me how God does the above. Explain to me how the Son was able to remain the divine Son and come to us as a man. Explain to me how Mary became pregnant as a virgin. Explain to me how God can be self existent and eternal.

Have you never heard that God's people walk by faith and without faith we cannot please Him? Have you never heard that we are to be grateful, especially for His saving grace of saying, "If I didn't make my own choice, if I did not participate in my own salvation, then I don't want that God.

It kind of indicates a heart---from which our will takes its signals and actions---that is still clinging to its own desire for autonomy and that will not fully surrender to God being over him. An area in need of sanctification.

A regenerated heart does not need to be dragged into the kingdom by force. It comes willingly, joyfully, desperate and grateful for the living water to drink.

 

[Mr GLee]

God created Adam and he was sinless and perfect. The Bible says that only Jesus could fully reveal the Father to us. Now you have made many explanations as to what God's repenting means but they are all based on your NT understanding of God. In the OT when people built the Tower of Babel God had to come down to take a look and see what was going on. Is that the way God is? I don't think so. I think He knew everything there was to know already.

They never had eternal life God created mankind with a warning not to eat, they ate.

 

[Arial]

I see it that way also because if anyone can go into a person's heart uninvited and change that heart 180 degrees from what it was without the consent or knowledge of the person, even though the person was unaware of it, that is a form of force. If I understand it correctly reformed theology teaches that a person is born with a will that is against God. That would mean that God changes the will to be for him going against that person's will. That is force as far as I can see.

A form of force? Interesting. God calls it grace.

 

[Mr GLee]

Those who insist that it is forced CANNOT be corrected. They don't WANT to be corrected. It is how they argue against it and if that is taken away they have NOTHING. I can't do someone else's work for them. The doctrines of grace contain more than the I, and they all work together, and can be tracked down as to their accuracy in the scriptures.

Amen . Force , "power exerted against will or consent" the ungodly take it by force. The believer put away the weapons of war and get plowing the fields

Micah 4:3 And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

 

[makesends]

I see it that way also because if anyone can go into a person's heart uninvited and change that heart 180 degrees from what it was without the consent or knowledge of the person, even though the person was unaware of it, that is a form of force. If I understand it correctly reformed theology teaches that a person is born with a will that is against God. That would mean that God changes the will to be for him going against that person's will. That is force as far as I can see.

Just as with any other self-determinist, you think God is like "anyone". But he is the Creator, and the born-again has been made "a new creature".

 

[Bob Carabbio]

It has every thing to do with sin . ..Repent stop sinning

Jeremiah 31:18-20King James Version18 I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

That's only one aspect. Jesus "repented" at John's baptism, and SIN had nothing to do with it.

 

[Mr GLee]

That's only one aspect. Jesus "repented" at John's baptism, and SIN had nothing to do with it.

What do you mean by repented at? Are you referring the baptism in Luke ?


Luke ?Luke 3:2-4King James Version3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins; As it is written in the book of the words of Esaias the prophet, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

 

[makesends]

That's only one aspect. Jesus "repented" at John's baptism, and SIN had nothing to do with it.

Not to defend @Mr GLee , but where does Scripture say Jesus "repented" at John's baptism?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Not to defend @Mr GLee , but where does Scripture say Jesus "repented" at John's baptism?

John's baptism WAS a "Baptism of repentance" (Mat 3:11), and that Jesus Changed His life direction following His Baptism is solid evidence of His repentance (not of SIN, or of Sinful activities, but of His former life-style - i.e. Head of Mary's family in Joseph's absence / maybe professional carpenter).

 

[makesends]

John's baptism WAS a "Baptism of repentance" (Mat 3:11), and that Jesus Changed His life direction following His Baptism is solid evidence of His repentance (not of SIN, or of Sinful activities, but of His former life-style - i.e. Head of Mary's family in Joseph's absence / maybe professional carpenter).

So, it does not say that he repented.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

So, it does not say that he repented.

Jesus' ACTIONS indicate that He did. Believe whatever lights your fire.

 

[Arial]

As I pointed out originally, what exactly do you mean by this statement?

That is not what you pointed out originally. In post #430, you did not quote that portion of my post, but the entire post, and said you did not know what it referred to. You bolded that one portion, and I apologize for not paying attention to it. But to be honest, you, yourself, detracted from that by going into the accusatory rant.

And because few alive today began their Christian journey on solid footing but rather on a heresy, and all they know of it is their opinion of it, often given to them by their church, and that is that it is not only false but evil. Therefore they come on forums and spout these things as though they were the absolute truth which requires a response, correction, and clarification.

If one is sealed signed and delivered by Christ to an eternity in paradise, it should not matter whether others believe it or not. Right? Lastly, if we take Calvinism to its logical conclusion, one does not even have to ascribe to reformed theology to be saved: It is God's choice alone and not what one does or believes. So even Arminians can be saved if God chooses them. So why argue?

The post by me that you question is in response to this in the OP. What came before the portion of my post that you quote is a part of the conversation that led to that last statement and must be considered. The no solid footing is that for the majority of Christians in the postmodern age came to Christianity in a time when the traditional doctrines of Christianity, and its importance and inclusion, were considered unimportant, unnecessary, and old fashioned. Even those who took to the pulpit were not trained in sound doctrine, and it became a free for all as to what was taught. Pick a Scripture for the sermon topic and do with it what you will, but never bothering with hermeneutics, or exegesis, or checking its truthfulness against the whole counsel of God concerning what was being taught. I am a victim of this too, in the naivety of a child, trusting what I heard. They were after all preachers, Christians, who would never say something that was not true. And not yet having for myself, knowledge of the Scriptures.

The result is a multitude of heresies, and people not equipped to discern what is sound doctrine, and not equipped to do or even see the need for determining our beliefs on what the whole counsel of God teaches on any given subject. This results in proof texting in debates that can not withstand the scruncity of careful and correct hermeneutics, exegesis, exposition. It is a result of not going to texts---any texts---and first determining their meaning, and then finding application, but use application alone and in whatever way the individual feels or thinks about it.

The most universal in its acceptance and has been taught almost exclusively for decades, for over a century, is that of free will in Arminianism. No form of it can actually be supported, within its surrounding context or the whole counsel of God.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Just as with any other self-determinist, you think God is like "anyone". But he is the Creator, and the born-again has been made "a new creature".

Did they ask to be made a new creature? Did they desire to become a new creature? Did they love God and want to become a new creature to be nearer to Him? If not, then they were forced.

You seem to believe that an unborn-again person can partake in the Holy Spirit and be enlightened.