🚨 The Hidden Dualism in "Free Will" Theology 🚨

[Dave]

@makesends
This explains it better than I can.

"If a person is asked, “Does cold exist?” the answer would likely be “yes.” However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good."

He's sovereign over it, controls it, decreed it, and many times can cause it for good, like with Joseph being sold into slavery. God meant it for good, they (his brothers) meant it for evil. One act, God is glorified for His part (saved His people from starvation), Josephs brothers are judged for their part (selling their brother into slavery).

I think that it's important to note, that there would be no need for the theological term 'predestination' if the distinction between predestination' (the good), and non predestination (the evil) did not exist. Everything would be predestined. But everything is not predestined, rather everything is ordained and decreed positively, whether caused or allowed. Predestined speaks specifically of caused by God.

How does God harden a heart? He removes Himself, moves further away, removes restraints put on evil. It's a negative positive, if you will.


Dave

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Correct. . .one puts in the definition that fits the context.

This is not a refutation of my statement.

You might consult a commentary. . .

I have consulted many a commentary.

I just taught the book of John and when I teach, I tend to look at alot of commentaries so I can see all points of view to answer possible questions.

Many commentaries do not agree with your perspective.. So instead. lets look at the word and see what the word says

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I have never heard anyone say faith is a work. "Choosing" to believe would be a work.

Sadly. I have been in many calvin debates through the years where I have been told I am trying to save myself because I trust or had faith in God. And not because God saved me first..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Perhaps it could be inferred that you SHOULD know your need, but I don't read it saying that you do (or did) know your need. It only says that they denied what they did know, and what can be known about God by what is visible.

But, it is true that it does say that nobody has any excuse, but that is because they reject God. That does not imply that they could have accepted him.

Yep. I continually need reminded just how bankrupt I am. But I am not capable of knowing just how bad that is. *I* am neither capable of measuring me, (though I am driven to do so every day, and even am enjoined to do so regularly), nor can my measure be knowledgeable to "plumb the depths" of my depravity and helplessness.

You will find me being the one who will agree completely that it does not take great faith. It takes REAL faith, the quality of which is entirely pure and powerful, being generated by Almighty God the Holy Spirit. The amount of it is irrelevant as to whether it is capable of producing the necessary evidences of belief.

makesends said:
According to Romans 8, the mind governed by the flesh (not the mind governed by the spirit) is unable to please God,

Do you think that falling on your knees crying out for help does not please God? (Romans 8:8)

makesends said:
nor to submit to God's law. What do you do with that—do you say that the mind of the lost is somehow become governed by the Spirit in a way that is not being born again? Relate that to Ephesians 2's "dead in sin". Also note (1 Corinthians 2:14), that the natural man is unable to understand the things of the Spirit—they are undiscernible to him. Where does that fit into this equation?

ok, ignore that part of it for now; what do you do with 1 Corinthians 2:14? The natural man is unable to understand the things of the Spirit—they are undiscernible to him. Is the gospel not also hidden, indiscernible to the natural man?

How did God prove to you he is trustworthy?

As hard? No. It is impossible, unless God regenerates you. Consider the possibility that you were born again before you ever realized it. Many people have testified that they suddenly realized on day, that they did believe. It can happen without you knowing it. The other virtues, and particularly, salvific faith, are a result of that indwelling.

I disagree with the premise

all I need is to know I am condemned.

1. It says they supress the truth, not the God keeps it from them

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse
On judgment day no one will have an excuse

romans 1: 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.


God regenerates us, or makes us alive, when the thing that makes us dead is removed.

Justification MUST precede regeneration. otherwise. a person is already saved and the penalty of sin is removed before a person even says yes.. and technically. would not need to say yes. they are already saved

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

@makesends
This explains it better than I can.

"If a person is asked, “Does cold exist?” the answer would likely be “yes.” However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good."

He's sovereign over it, controls it, decreed it, and many times can cause it for good, like with Joseph being sold into slavery. God meant it for good, they (his brothers) meant it for evil. One act, God is glorified for His part (saved His people from starvation), Josephs brothers are judged for their part (selling their brother into slavery).

I think that it's important to note, that there would be no need for the theological term 'predestination' if the distinction between predestination' (the good), and non predestination (the evil) did not exist. Everything would be predestined. But everything is not predestined, rather everything is ordained and decreed positively, whether caused or allowed. Predestined speaks specifically of caused by God.

How does God harden a heart? He removes Himself, moves further away, removes restraints put on evil. It's a negative positive, if you will.


Dave

The word harden literally means to strengthen.

God strengthens a person's ideas, or beliefs. many times by exposing them to truth. so they are forced to deny the truth over and over, until they are so hard they will never believe.

 

[Arial]

Sadly. I have been in many calvin debates through the years where I have been told I am trying to save myself because I trust or had faith in God. And not because God saved me first..

You all ready said that. I don't see the relevance. In what way is it relevant to the conversation or the OP?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

You all ready said that. I don't see the relevance. In what way is it relevant to the conversation or the OP?

You said you have never seen anyone say faith is a work.

If they are telling me that I am trying to save myself by having faith. they are in essence saying faith is a work.

 

[Arial]

You said you have never seen anyone say faith is a work.

If they are telling me that I am trying to save myself by having faith. they are in essence saying faith is a work.

How is that relevant to the OP and the discussion?

 

[Eleanor]

as with everything,, You do not just put in the possible defenition that fits our belief system

It falls to you to Biblically demonstrate my error.

And unbelievers I was an unbeliever once. I was condemned already until i repented.
Yes it can.
We are in agreement
He dies. so that all who believe will not perish
he who believes in him will not perish Not be condemned
He who does not believe is condemned already, why because they sinned? Because God did not die for them? No. because they did not believe
Exactly. we must call out. or will will not be saved

No,
He told nicodemus was done
your ignoring John 3: 10 - 19

Jn 3:10-19 is not in disagreement with anything I have stated.

john 3 3 - 5 is not choice of the spirit
it speaks of being born of the flesh (1st birth) vs being born of the spirit (send birth or being born again)

Then you don't understand the figurative statement of Jn 3:6-8, regarding the sovereignty (as unaccountable as the wind) of the Holy Spirit in regeneration.

 

[Eleanor]

I have consulted many a commentary.

I just taught the book of John and when I teach, I tend to look at alot of commentaries so I can see all points of view to answer possible questions.

Many commentaries do not agree with your perspective.. So instead. lets look at the word and see what the word says

Do all disagree?

 

[makesends]

@makesends
This explains it better than I can.

"If a person is asked, “Does cold exist?” the answer would likely be “yes.” However, this is incorrect. Cold does not exist. Cold is the absence of heat. Similarly, darkness does not exist; it is the absence of light. Evil is the absence of good, or better, evil is the absence of God. God did not have to create evil, but rather only allow for the absence of good."

He's sovereign over it, controls it, decreed it, and many times can cause it for good, like with Joseph being sold into slavery. God meant it for good, they (his brothers) meant it for evil. One act, God is glorified for His part (saved His people from starvation), Josephs brothers are judged for their part (selling their brother into slavery).

I think that it's important to note, that there would be no need for the theological term 'predestination' if the distinction between predestination' (the good), and non predestination (the evil) did not exist. Everything would be predestined. But everything is not predestined, rather everything is ordained and decreed positively, whether caused or allowed. Predestined speaks specifically of caused by God.

How does God harden a heart? He removes Himself, moves further away, removes restraints put on evil. It's a negative positive, if you will.


Dave

That's not an unreasonable way to look at it, but it fails to deal directly with the fact that this whole business was God's 'invention'.

 

[makesends]

​

makesends said:​

Perhaps it could be inferred that you SHOULD know your need, but I don't read it saying that you do (or did) know your need. It only says that they denied what they did know, and what can be known about God by what is visible.​

​

But, it is true that it does say that nobody has any excuse, but that is because they reject God. That does not imply that they could have accepted him.​

​

Yep. I continually need reminded just how bankrupt I am. But I am not capable of knowing just how bad that is. *I* am neither capable of measuring me, (though I am driven to do so every day, and even am enjoined to do so regularly), nor can my measure be knowledgeable to "plumb the depths" of my depravity and helplessness.​

​

You will find me being the one who will agree completely that it does not take great faith. It takes REAL faith, the quality of which is entirely pure and powerful, being generated by Almighty God the Holy Spirit. The amount of it is irrelevant as to whether it is capable of producing the necessary evidences of belief.​

​

makesends said:​

According to Romans 8, the mind governed by the flesh (not the mind governed by the spirit) is unable to please God,​

​

Do you think that falling on your knees crying out for help does not please God? (Romans 8:8)​

​

makesends said:​

nor to submit to God's law. What do you do with that—do you say that the mind of the lost is somehow become governed by the Spirit in a way that is not being born again? Relate that to Ephesians 2's "dead in sin". Also note (1 Corinthians 2:14), that the natural man is unable to understand the things of the Spirit—they are undiscernible to him. Where does that fit into this equation?​

​

ok, ignore that part of it for now; what do you do with 1 Corinthians 2:14? The natural man is unable to understand the things of the Spirit—they are undiscernible to him. Is the gospel not also hidden, indiscernible to the natural man?​

​

How did God prove to you he is trustworthy?​

​

As hard? No. It is impossible, unless God regenerates you. Consider the possibility that you were born again before you ever realized it. Many people have testified that they suddenly realized on day, that they did believe. It can happen without you knowing it. The other virtues, and particularly, salvific faith, are a result of that indwelling.​

I disagree with the premise

Which premise? I was disagreeing with the premise that Rom 1 says that one MUST know their need. It does not.

all I need is to know I am condemned.

1. It says they supress the truth, not the God keeps it from them

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men,who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse
On judgment day no one will have an excuse

romans 1: 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.


God regenerates us, or makes us alive, when the thing that makes us dead is removed.

Justification MUST precede regeneration. otherwise. a person is already saved and the penalty of sin is removed before a person even says yes.. and technically. would not need to say yes. they are already saved

I'm not sure what there is, of what you are saying, that disagrees with anything I said. I think I'm missing your point.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Jn 3:10-19 is not in disagreement with anything I have stated.

Then you don't understand the figurative statement of Jn 3:6-8, regarding the sovereignty (as unaccountable as the wind) of the Holy Spirit in regeneration.

John 3: 10 - 19 is the answer as to how John 3 1 - 9 happens

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

​

Which premise? I was disagreeing with the premise that Rom 1 says that one MUST know their need. It does not.

I disagree

of they can know they are guilty, if they know they are guilty, if they know they deserve punishment, and they know God.

they can know their need..

I'm not sure what there is, of what you are saying, that disagrees with anything I said. I think I'm missing your point.

you said they can not know their need..

They suppressed the truth, it does not say they did not know the truth. they did

 

[Eleanor]

John 3: 10 - 19 is the answer as to how John 3 1 - 9 happens

Yes, Jn 3:3-8 is the work of the sovereign Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind.

 

[makesends]

I disagree

of they can know they are guilty, if they know they are guilty, if they know they deserve punishment, and they know God.

they can know their need..

you said they can not know their need..

They suppressed the truth, it does not say they did not know the truth. they did

Ok, let's use your example in Romans 1: It even says they knew GOD (vs 21). Does that mean they understood and trusted him?

In your use of the word, "faith", you say it is given you by being convinced, that God is to be trusted. According to scripture, you can't know God (the things of the Spirit) except by faith. You run into a contradiction here. They "knew God", but still lived by the flesh—not the Spirit. They did not have faith. And if they did not have the mind of the Spirit, but only of the flesh, they could not understand their need, even if they had the weight of a guilty conscience.

 

[Hazelelponi]

If a person is (as a Calvinist would say) so depraved, he would never even chose to receive Gods gift of mercy and grace. then that person has no free will,

If a person who is born again, will chose to believe Jesus no matter what. again, that person literally has no free will.

That's correct. We not only don't have free will, there's no requirement of God to provide it to us, in fact, nature itself tells us our will is not free.

You are not required to have free will - that you know right from wrong and choose sin (no matter how encumbered that choice is) is enough to condemn you, regardless of the framework that judgement is assessed.

A sign of pathology is to excuse sin. It's something convicts do, nothing is ever their fault but rather, is the fault of literally everything and everyone around them. There's no acceptance of responsibility, only finger pointing outward instead of inward.

This mindset as a whole as we have noticed societally has led to widespread lawlessness and an increase in certain crimes, because now, excuse in hand called "not my fault", law itself is meaningless upon widespread acceptance of the idea.

We don't have free will, and that affects neither moral agency nor who God is in His nature.

In fact we find in Scripture that everything God does is for our ultimate good, so we should let the hard things teach us the hard lessons, and not cry out to God screaming "why have you made me this way,".

We have moral agency, and no excuse for sin, and no free will.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, Jn 3:3-8 is the work of the sovereign Holy Spirit, as unaccountable as the wind.

But unless John 3: 10 - 18 happen. john 3 - 8 will not happen.

it is done like the wind. when I got on my knees, I did not feel the HS come in, or save me, But I know it happened.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Ok, let's use your example in Romans 1: It even says they knew GOD (vs 21). Does that mean they understood and trusted him?

I guess if they did not believe. they would not have trusted them, hence why as Jesus said, they are condemned already correct?

In your use of the word, "faith", you say it is given you by being convinced, that God is to be trusted. According to scripture, you can't know God (the things of the Spirit) except by faith.

So God is unable to convince me of his truth of the gospel. is this what you are saying? God is limited?

You run into a contradiction here. They "knew God", but still lived by the flesh—not the Spirit. They did not have faith. And if they did not have the mind of the Spirit, but only of the flesh, they could not understand their need, even if they had the weight of a guilty conscience.

It says they knew God, and thus have no excuse.

They his the truth. so like when God sent his men to Israel. they in unbelief rejected Gods men. because they hid the truth.

Stephen gave a wonderful account of this in acts 7, and they stoned him for it.. thats what happens when the truth hits you, and you do not want to see it.. You get angry and take the truth out

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That's correct. We not only don't have free will, there's no requirement of God to provide it to us, in fact, nature itself tells us our will is not free.

again, I disagree. this does not make any sense. being honest.

You are not required to have free will -

Never said that

that you know right from wrong and choose sin (no matter how encumbered that choice is) is enough to condemn you, regardless of the framework that judgement is assessed.

Do we have a just God?
Do we have a loving God?

A sign of pathology is to excuse sin. It's something convicts do, nothing is ever their fault but rather, is the fault of literally everything and everyone around them. There's no acceptance of responsibility, only finger pointing outward instead of inward.

This mindset as a whole as we have noticed societally has led to widespread lawlessness and an increase in certain crimes, because now, excuse in hand called "not my fault", law itself is meaningless upon widespread acceptance of the idea.

We don't have free will, and that affects neither moral agency nor who God is in His nature.

In fact we find in Scripture that everything God does is for our ultimate good, so we should let the hard things teach us the hard lessons, and not cry out to God screaming "why have you made me this way,".

We have moral agency, and no excuse for sin, and no free will.

I have free will. and have had it since I was born.

I am sorry you think you were forced to do everything you ever did. (no free will)

I just do not see it any other way, not saying it to be mean, just how it sounds