Why do Calvinists debate?

[Mercy_Shown]

makesends said:
Were you forced to be created?

No. You didn't want anything. Meanwhile, you are a new creature, in Christ. Not the same person you were. Literally, not the same.

Once you had a will at enmity with God; why call it 'force' when he changes your will and gives you a new heart? You still choose—nobody is saying different. But you choose as a result of your will —the old will, or the new will.

It is force to change someone’s Will. There is no other definition.

Apart from Christ we can do nothing. It is not far from "we are nothing". In a sense, since he is the Creator, apart from his reason for creating us, we are nothing.

We can do nothing but by his power we can make a choice as wether we submit or not.

"You seem" to be talking out both sides of your mouth here. Why would you say that I seem to believe something and then turn around and claim I didn't?

Don’t know what you are referring to.

What do you mean by "becoming a Christian", here? Before being regenerated? Before being saved from sin? Before being justified? Before repenting? Before choosing to give up your will to Christ?

So you agree that giving up our will is a choice.

Or, perhaps more to the point, why would you think that an unbeliever in whom the Spirit is doing as it pleases for its own reasons, enlightening and so on per Hebrews 6, would, while still a slave to sin and living according to the flesh, have the will to do contrary to Romans 8?

Nothing in Hebrews 6 matches your description. It does not say that these people were slaves to sin and lived according to the flesh, on the contrary they are described as quite pious individuals until they fell away.

 

[makesends]

So you agree that giving up our will is a choice.

We do so because he has done it in us. We are unable to do so if he has not, because we WILL not to do so. Always.

 

[makesends]

It is force to change someone’s Will. There is no other definition.

Have it your way.

We can do nothing but by his power we can make a choice as wether we submit or not.

Agreed that we choose. Apart from him we choose against him. Without him we will not submit.

Don’t know what you are referring to.

So you agree that giving up our will is a choice.

We do so because it is so. Already.

Nothing in Hebrews 6 matches your description. It does not say that these people were slaves to sin and lived according to the flesh, on the contrary they are described as quite pious individuals until they fell away.

We are all slaves to sin, or to Christ.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Have it your way.

What is this? Burger King?

Agreed that we choose. Apart from him we choose against him. Without him we will not submit.

And some choose against him. Choice means more than one option.

We do so because it is so. Already.

That’s force.

We are all slaves to sin, or to Christ.

What about being a brother? The Father adopted us as sons.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

We do so because he has done it in us. We are unable to do so if he has not, because we WILL not to do so. Always.

This is not choosing to give up your will. It is being reprogrammed to do so. Why did the rich young ruler not follow Christ?

 

[makesends]

What is this? Burger King?

And some choose against him. Choice means more than one option.

Options are not possibilities. Just options from which to choose.

That’s force.

That's not force. It's predestination. Your will is part of what brings it about.

What about being a brother? The Father adopted us as sons.

The Bible says slaves, and so we are.

 

[makesends]

This is not choosing to give up your will. It is being reprogrammed to do so. Why did the rich young ruler not follow Christ?

Do you call it 'forcing' that we have a sin nature?

 

[GeneZ]

We do so because he has done it in us. We are unable to do so if he has not, because we WILL not to do so. Always.

What made you 'will' to write that?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

My question to you would be: where do you get this vast knowledge of all theologians along with all that is in their minds and motives?

Instead of popping into threads to invoke your negative feelings, either constructively contribute of stay away. This smacks of troll.

But we both know that it's the absolute truth. "Calvinists" are CONFIDENT that their "Systematic" is THE TRUTH, and everybody else's is to some degree in error. Why would you BE a "Calvinist" otherwise???

 

[Arial]

OK I will answer the questions next time.
Even though they did not answer the question I asked.

Why do you insist that I did not answer the question when the truth is, you simply did not accept the answer but moved the goalpost. It went from how is it not force (irresistible grace) to explain how it happens, how God does it. Which is what prompted me to ask you to explain certain things that cannot be explained as to how God does them. You either did not comprehend that or chose to ignore it.

Irresistible grace is not grace that offers a choice of acceptance or rejection in the Reformed doctrine---not the Armenian doctrine---it is grace that gives faith. "By grace you are saved through faith, and that is not of yourselves, it is a gift of God." And if it is faith that is given, it is faith that the person has. You and others are turning what Scripture calls faith into something that is and isn't at the same time. If we have faith, it means that we believe something. If we believe something, do we reject it? Do we resist it and make God's grace of no account?

Does that mean we are forced to believe? Coerced to believe? No. It means a gracious deliverance from our bondage. We hear His voice and we willingly follow Him. So, the ball is in your court. Show me how a grace is force. Do it with scripture back up, not your imagination, or worldly unspiritual human wisdom and reasoning.

 

[Arial]

But we both know that it's the absolute truth. "Calvinists" are CONFIDENT that their "Systematic" is THE TRUTH, and everybody else's is to some degree in error. Why would you BE a "Calvinist" otherwise???

God's truth is not relative and it can be known

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Do you call it 'forcing' that we have a sin nature?

Yes, only the Son can set us free and we will be free indeed!

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Options are not possibilities. Just options from which to choose.

That's not force. It's predestination. Your will is part of what brings it about.

The Bible says slaves, and so we are.

The Bible says we are children and our abba abides in Heaven.

 

[Carbon]

But Efficacious grace is. I can't find it in the bible.

I cant believe you missed it.

 

[Carbon]

Everything I said is passed through your bias filter which comes out not saying what I was saying....

Wow, is that a new one? I like it.

 

[GeneZ]

Why do you insist that I did not answer the question when the truth is, you simply did not accept the answer but moved the goalpost. human wisdom and reasoning.

I thank you......

 

[GeneZ]

Wow, is that a new one? I like it.

Its true....

 

[Mercy_Shown]

I cant believe you missed it.

I can't believe you imagine it is there. It is χαρις translated 170 times as grace in the New Testament. In the Old Testament, grace, gracious, and graciously are translated 147 times from the same root word: Tnakh. So, unless there is a secret Calvinist Bible, I did not know about it. There is no Irresistible grace, effectual grace, effectual calling, or efficacious grace. Found in the bible.

Wow, is that a new one? I like it.

Everybody like hearing what they want to hear more than what is actually being said. That is the human condition.

 

[makesends]

What made you 'will' to write that?

God, my circumstances, my genetic makeup, my predilection for irony, my personality, my will, my thinking, my trick finger and the way I felt and many other things, not to mention the fact that if God had not made me I wouldn't have willed to write that —all those together, show that there was no other way I would have written that. If just one thing had been different, I might've written it differently, but nothing was different, so I wrote it only the way I did.

 

[Carbon]

I can't believe you imagine it is there. It is χαρις translated 170 times as grace in the New Testament. In the Old Testament, grace, gracious, and graciously are translated 147 times from the same root word: Tnakh. So, unless there is a secret Calvinist Bible, I did not know about it. There is no Irresistible grace, effectual grace, effectual calling, or efficacious grace. Found in the bible.

Everybody like hearing what they want to hear more than what is actually being said. That is the human condition.

But the teaching is there throughout. Though it is not mentioned by name like the Trinity it is taught