🚨 The Hidden Dualism in "Free Will" Theology 🚨

[Eternally-Grateful]

makesends said:
But what I'm asking here, is whether this vein —that of the nature of and source of salvific faith— is by God or by man.

Ok, let's say I accept all that and agree with it. What made you, 1) see your actual need,​

Romans 1 says I know my need, and thus have no excuse

and 2) see that your solution is Christ,​

My parents. The HS. My pastor. My Sunday school teachers. My Grandparents.

and 3) come to trust him for that?​

I think Jesus said it best. Unless we become poor in spirit (bankrupt) we will not enter the kingdom of God.

I become bankrupt. lost. no place to turn.. I either had to continue to hide the truth. or see what I saw from the word. Gods work in others lives. and what I saw as something I can trust.

reemember, it does not take great faith. The man said Lord I believe help my unbelief. Jesus healed his child.

​

According to Romans 8, the mind governed by the flesh (not the mind governed by the spirit) is unable to please God,​

Yes. because we can not do good. to serve and love others (the law of love)

that is different than being like the tax collector and falling on our knees crying out for help

nor to submit to God's law. What do you do with that—do you say that the mind of the lost is somehow become governed by the Spirit in a way that is not being born again? Relate that to Ephesians 2's "dead in sin". Also note (1 Corinthians 2:14), that the natural man is unable to understand the things of the Spirit—they are undiscernible to him. Where does that fit into this equation?​

we are not saved by the law. so not sure what your asking

-------------------------------

So, you see, I don't accept all that construction you show as to how faith in God comes about. It is not the same sort of thing as faith in your wife, or in the chair you continue to sit in. Not only is it from God, in that you learn to trust him, but it is from God in the sense that the natural man is unable to grasp the necessary concepts to understand the Gospel —they are foolishness to him— so God himself has to do it by his Spirit taking up residence in the person, transforming him from death to life.

I disagree

The choice you see yourself understanding, and choosing well, —while choosing well may involve much emotion and awakening and submission and repentance and so on—, that is the nature of the walk with God subsequent to salvation that has already been worked in you. You believe because God put you IN CHRIST —by the Spirit of God in you, giving you birth from above—regeneration.

The dead cannot choose Christ.

I never will understand this notion

Did God prove to me he is trustworthy? Yes

if so I repent and say yes

If not. I remain in unbelief.

Its not as hard as people want to make it

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, it is a demonstration that all mankind is guilty of law breaking and are condemned, the Jew being guilty of breaking God's revealed law, and the Gentle being guilty of breaking the law of his conscience, therefore, all men are locked up in sin (Ro 11:32) and condemned (post #28).

It says they by nature do things in the law. By nature then, they are literally doing the things of God. Because I believe God wrote his law in our DNA..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yes, but not their personal sin for which they were personally guilty, for there was no personal sin when there was no law to sin against, they died because of their guilt of the sin of Adam imputed to them (Ro 5:17, 18-19).

never mind..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Jesus paid for the sin of all the elect.

No, he paid for the sin of the world.

ALL manner of sin will be forgiven ALL men.

mankind will not go to hell because of personal sin. Jesus paid the debt.

they are condemned because they do nto believe.

He who believes is not condemned

he who does not believe is condemned already.

It has been the HS job from the begining of creation to convict us of our sin and try to bring us to the knowledge of God.

if in the end, we say no. We have rejected Gods provision.

that is the only sin that will nto be forgiven

 

[Eleanor]

It says they by nature do things in the law. By nature then, they are literally doing the things of God. Because I believe God wrote his law in our DNA..

They must do all things, and to God's satisfaction for it to qualify as sinlessness.

 

[Eleanor]

No, he paid for the sin of the world.

"World" in the context of Judaism means both Gentiles and Jews, not all Gentiles and Jews.

ALL manner of sin will be forgiven ALL men.
mankind will not go to hell because of personal sin. Jesus paid the debt.
they are condemned because they do nto believe.

I don't see futility in the divine payment of the Son of God.
God's arm is not too short.

He who believes is not condemned
he who does not believe is condemned already.
It has been the HS job from the begining of creation to convict us of our sin and try to bring us to the knowledge of God.

And Jesus says we must be reborn by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) choice of the Holy Spirit to even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3-5).

if in the end, we say no. We have rejected Gods provision.
that is the only sin that will nto be forgiven

The issue is not saying no to the almighty divine power of the Holy Spirit. . .that don't happen.
The issue is the sovereign choice (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit regarding whom he will rebirth in the first place.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

They must do all things, and to God's satisfaction for it to qualify as sinlessness.

that was not my point once again

the argument is they can not do good. or do the things of God

if by nature they are obeying Gods commands.. then the argument they can not do good. or do what God wants is faulty

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

"World" in the context of Judaism means both Gentiles and Jews, not all Gentiles and Jews.

world "kosmos" means in Judaism satans domain or his system, the whole world. or maybe part of the world

The fact jesus was not sent to judge the world. but so the world may be saved, shows me that not everyone he died for will be saved

I don't see futility in the divine payment of the Son of God.
God's arm is not too short.

I do not either.

it will save everyone who calls out..

And Jesus says we must be reborn by the sovereign (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) choice of the Holy Spirit to even see the kingdom of God (Jn 3:3-5).

No..

The issue is not saying no to the almighty divine power of the Holy Spirit. . .that don't happen.
The issue is the sovereign choice (as unaccountable as the wind, Jn 3:6-8) of the Holy Spirit regarding whom he will rebirth in the first place.

no.

I am sorry, You are removing the most important aspect of What Jesus told nicodemus, How are we born again.

The part you are highlighting is again what it means, not how it is done

 

[Eleanor]

that was not my point once again

the argument is they can not do good. or do the things of God

"Good" in the eyes of God is sinlessness.

if by nature they are obeying Gods commands.. then the argument they can not do good. or do what God wants is faulty

God requires sinlessness. . .nothing less.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

"Good" in the eyes of God is sinlessness.

God wants sinlessness. . .nothing less.

well then God is not going to get what he wants.

for ALL Have sinned, are sinning, and will continue to sin, and fall short of Gods glory

so if doing good means only being sinless. no one can do what is good. even us who are Gods children

 

[Arial]

but remember, me trusting in another person is not a good deed..

I don't see the relevance of that statement.

again, faith in trusting God to save us is not a good deed..

it is the work of God we believe in the one he sent.

I don't think anyone made the claim that faith is a good deed (work). (And faith is placed in the person and work of Jesus. Then we trust (rely on) God to always do what he says he will do and to be able to do so. And yes, that faith is a gift of God, not something that is generated from within ourselves.

 

[Eleanor]

world "kosmos" means in Judaism satans domain or his system, the whole world. or maybe part of the world

In the NT context of Judaism, it also refers to Jews and Gentiles; i.e., the human race.

The fact jesus was not sent to judge the world. but so the world may be saved, shows me that not everyone he died for will be saved

Agreed. . .not everyone will be saved.

He died for believers, all of whom will be saved.

"World" in the NT means both Gentiles and Jews, it does not mean all Gentiles and Jews.

I do not either.

Then you and Jesus are not in agreement.

Jesus said, "Whoever does not believe in the Son is condemned already." (Jn 3:18)

it will save everyone who calls out..

And all do not call out, so all are not saved.

No..
I am sorry, You are removing the most important aspect of What Jesus told nicodemus, How are we born again.
The part you are highlighting is again what it means, not how it is done

Jesus told us how it was done, by the sovereign (Jn 3:6-8) choice of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5).

 

[Eleanor]

well then God is not going to get what he wants.

He does in those who are in the righteous Christ, participating in the imputation of Christ's rIghteousness (Ro 5:18-19, 2 Co 5:21).

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I don't see the relevance of that statement.

what is the difference in saying I trust in my wife

or I trust in God.

I have been told me trusting in God to receive his salvation is a work. or a Good deed. it is me saving myself.

I don't think anyone made the claim that faith is a good deed (work). (And faith is placed in the person and work of Jesus. Then we trust (rely on) God to always do what he says he will do and to be able to do so. And yes, that faith is a gift of God, not something that is generated from within ourselves.

Again, I have been told this alot.. Faith is a good deed or work.

when I say I have been saved by grace through faith. I have been told many a time, i saved myself..

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

In the NT context of Judaism, it also refers to Jews and Gentiles; i.e., the human race.

as with everything,, You do not just put in the possible defenition that fits our belief system

Agreed. . .

He died for believers.

And unbelievers I was an unbeliever once. I was condemned already until i repented.

"World" in the NT means both Gentiles and Jews, it does not mean all Gentiles and Jews.

Yes it can.

Then you and Jesus are not in agreement.

Jesus said, "Whoever does not believe in the Son is condemned already." (Jn 3:18)

We are in agreement

He dies. so that all who believe will not perish

he who believes in him will not perish Not be condemned

He who does not believe is condemned already, why because they sinned? Because God did not die for them? No. because they did not believe

And all do not call out, so all are not saved.

Exactly. we must call out. or will will not be saved

Jesus told us how it was done, by the sovereign (Jn 3:6-8) choice of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-5).

No,

He told nicodemus was done

your ignoring John 3: 10 - 19

john 3 3 - 5 is not choice of the spirit

it speaks of being born of the flesh (1st birth) vs being born of the spirit (send birth or being born again)

 

[Eleanor]

as with everything,, You do not just put in the possible defenition that fits our belief system

Correct. . .one puts in the definition that fits the context.

And unbelievers I was an unbeliever once. I was condemned already until i repented.

This is not a refutation of my statement.

as with everything,, You do not just put in the possible defenition that fits our belief system
And unbelievers I was an unbeliever once. I was condemned already until i repented.
Yes it can.
We are in agreement
He dies. so that all who believe will not perish
he who believes in him will not perish Not be condemned
He who does not believe is condemned already, why because they sinned? Because God did not die for them? No. because they did not believe
Exactly. we must call out. or will will not be saved

No,
He told nicodemus was done
your ignoring John 3: 10 - 19
john 3 3 - 5 is not choice of the spirit
it speaks of being born of the flesh (1st birth) vs being born of the spirit (send birth or being born again)

You might consult a commentary. . .

 

[Arial]

what is the difference in saying I trust in my wife

or I trust in God.

I have been told me trusting in God to receive his salvation is a work. or a Good deed. it is me saving myself.

Again, I have been told this alot.. Faith is a good deed or work.

when I say I have been saved by grace through faith. I have been told many a time, i saved myself..

I have never heard anyone say faith is a work. "Choosing" to believe would be a work.

 

[makesends]

Romans 1 says I know my need, and thus have no excuse

Perhaps it could be inferred that you SHOULD know your need, but I don't read it saying that you do (or did) know your need. It only says that they denied what they did know, and what can be known about God by what is visible.

But, it is true that it does say that nobody has any excuse, but that is because they reject God. That does not imply that they could have accepted him.

My parents. The HS. My pastor. My Sunday school teachers. My Grandparents.

I think Jesus said it best. Unless we become poor in spirit (bankrupt) we will not enter the kingdom of God.

I become bankrupt. lost. no place to turn.. I either had to continue to hide the truth. or see what I saw from the word. Gods work in others lives. and what I saw as something I can trust.

Yep. I continually need reminded just how bankrupt I am. But I am not capable of knowing just how bad that is. *I* am neither capable of measuring me, (though I am driven to do so every day, and even am enjoined to do so regularly), nor can my measure be knowledgeable to "plumb the depths" of my depravity and helplessness.

reemember, it does not take great faith. The man said Lord I believe help my unbelief. Jesus healed his child.

You will find me being the one who will agree completely that it does not take great faith. It takes REAL faith, the quality of which is entirely pure and powerful, being generated by Almighty God the Holy Spirit. The amount of it is irrelevant as to whether it is capable of producing the necessary evidences of belief.

makesends said:
According to Romans 8, the mind governed by the flesh (not the mind governed by the spirit) is unable to please God,

Yes. because we can not do good. to serve and love others (the law of love)

that is different than being like the tax collector and falling on our knees crying out for help

Do you think that falling on your knees crying out for help does not please God? (Romans 8:8)

makesends said:
nor to submit to God's law. What do you do with that—do you say that the mind of the lost is somehow become governed by the Spirit in a way that is not being born again? Relate that to Ephesians 2's "dead in sin". Also note (1 Corinthians 2:14), that the natural man is unable to understand the things of the Spirit—they are undiscernible to him. Where does that fit into this equation?

we are not saved by the law. so not sure what your asking

ok, ignore that part of it for now; what do you do with 1 Corinthians 2:14? The natural man is unable to understand the things of the Spirit—they are undiscernible to him. Is the gospel not also hidden, indiscernible to the natural man?

I disagree

I never will understand this notion

Did God prove to me he is trustworthy? Yes

How did God prove to you he is trustworthy?

if so I repent and say yes

If not. I remain in unbelief.

Its not as hard as people want to make it

As hard? No. It is impossible, unless God regenerates you. Consider the possibility that you were born again before you ever realized it. Many people have testified that they suddenly realized on day, that they did believe. It can happen without you knowing it. The other virtues, and particularly, salvific faith, are a result of that indwelling.

 

[Dave]

At the core of every argument against God’s absolute sovereignty is a hidden dualism—the assumption that when something happens, it must be caused by either God or Will, but never both. This is the fundamental presupposition behind every non-Calvinist framework:

Does God need to cause something to be sovereign over it and decree it? I don't think that He does. At this point some will say that He is looking into the future and reacting to man, but I would disagree with that. Why would a God, Who is all knowing need to look into the future? Leaving some to themselves is part of God's eternal decree. We are way more predictable than we think. He ordains everything, but predestines what He causes. The rest is being left to itself to take it's natural course. He knows what that course is, right down to the smallest detail. There is some domino effect even to what is predestined. Everything that is ordained that is not positively caused by God, I call that positively allowing. That's the way that I see it.

 

[makesends]

Does God need to cause something to be sovereign over it and decree it? I don't think that He does.

Yes, logically he does, as First Cause, the Uncaused Causer. "There are no other little first causes floating about the universe." Every cause is also an effect of an earlier cause, except First Cause, which is God Himself. Aseity demonstrates that God is not under any logical obligation to any other thing, be it principle, power or any fact outside himself. Reality itself is God's invention.

At this point some will say that He is looking into the future and reacting to man, but I would disagree with that. Why would a God, Who is all knowing need to look into the future? Leaving some to themselves is part of God's eternal decree. We are way more predictable than we think. He ordains everything, but predestines what He causes. The rest is being left to itself to take it's natural course. He knows what that course is, right down to the smallest detail. There is some domino effect even to what is predestined. Everything that is ordained that is not positively caused by God, I call that positively allowing. That's the way that I see it.

"In him we live and move and have our being." The attribute of, 'Immanence', spelled that way, implies that God is upholding all fact—not just setting it in motion and going away. He has no need to pay particular attention to something at the cost of others. While I can agree to the attribute of what I call 'efficiency' —that is, that God wastes no effort— even the term, 'effort', would be a hard thing to attribute to God.

It is from OUR point-of-view that we see him leaving certain things to go their own way. And he speaks in that way to us, so that we can understand what is going on, but not as doctrinally definitive of his immanence.

There is a huge difference in intention, however. (For an easy to understand example, God elected certain ones to Salvation and eternity with Him, and the others, we say, are left to their own devices (to some extent), for which they are already condemned. Logic says, that if he elected some to Heaven, he elected the remainder to Hell. I even say he determined from before the foundation of the world to save some and to condemn the rest. But his determining, or his electing, of the one is not like his determining of the other. His election of those he will saved is endemic, intrinsic, to his reason for creating. THAT people is what he created —let's call it S. The reprobation (R) of the rest is part of what it took to accomplish S, and that, for his own glory.)

(God is very particular. To claim that Calvinism teaches double-determinism is false, if 'double-determinism' implies that God is at all capricious or mean.)