What is : Imputed Righteousness

[Ghada]

states Jesus secured eternal redemption for God's elect, by his faith and obedience alone.

Yes, I thought you may be someone who teaches words of your own from the Bible, that the Bible never says.

You'll need to show where these words of yours are actually quoted in the Bible, in order to say they are from the Bible.

Until then, it just sounds like the usual old nonsense of being saved, justified, and forgiven of all sins past, present, and future, because you believe Jesus died on a cross. Unless of course I am reading you wrong.

Like I did with you, you are free to deny any of what I just interpreted from your own words, that I first quoted from you.

The remission of sins is not based upon repentance, faith, or any other works performed by the sinner~the forgiveness of sin legally speaking is only by Christ's perfect life of obedience, his life, death, and resurrection from the dead, secured the legal forgiveness of the elect sinners sins!

Wow. Impressive. Well tuned liturgy you got there. However, once again I don't see any words of the Bible in it.

And moreover, your initial statement opposes the Bible, that says not only are remissions of sins by repentance, but also salvation of God:

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Having a change of mind and being sorry for sinning, doesn't cut it with God. Jesus didn't die on a cross just so man could be sorry about it. And saying "I'm sorry" to Him, isn't repenting of the sinning against Him. No man is forgiven by God for sinning against His Son on the cross, by saying "I'm sorry', without also repenting of the sinning against His Son.

Abused spouses may settle for being sorry, but not God the Father.

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

The wages of sinning is still death to God, and the soul that sins against Him still dies to the Spirit. The law of sin and death is still executed by God.

 

[Ghada]

There are pages of truths we could spend here teaching, but for sake of time, we highlighted certain important truths declared by Paul, to show that no work on man's part is included in the sinners free justification from his sins.

Now, this actually has a ring of truth to it, by many of the words you use from the Bible.

However, your one little emboldened word no, turns the teaching into something of your own. Eph 2 and Rom 3, which you refer to, are corrupted when you don't include Titus 3.

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You teach Eph 2 and Rom 3 as meaning no works are part of being saved by faith, but Titus 3 clarifies that only our past works of filthy righteousness, which we have done, are excluded from having faith toward God.

This confirms James 2 plainly speaking of the new good works in Christ Jesus, that justify us.

Only the past old works of our own without Christ, are excluded from God's commendation to save us. And only the good new works with Jesus Christ commend us to be justified by Christ.

Like Paul, we must rebuke and repent of all past works of our own righteousness, which we have done, to have faith to be saved by Christ. And like James, we must do the new good works of God's righteousness to be justified through Christ.

I.e. repent and believe the gospel to be converted to God and now do His will.

The lesson here is to teach any of the Bible from all of the Bible; otherwise, the whole Bible is corrupted.

 

[Eleanor]

Now, this actually has a ring of truth to it, by many of the words you use from the Bible.

However, your one little emboldened word no, turns the teaching into something of your own.
Eph 2 and Rom 3, which you refer to, are corrupted when you don't include Titus 3.

Apples and oranges. . .

Actually it is your confounding of Tit 3 with Eph 2 and Ro 3 which corrupts them.

Tit 3 is post-justification, while Eph 2 and Ro 3 are pre-justification, which you have confounded.

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

You teach Eph 2 and Rom 3 as meaning no works are part of being saved by faith, but Titus 3 clarifies that only our past works of filthy righteousness, which we have done, are excluded from having faith toward God.

This confirms James 2 plainly speaking of the new good works in Christ Jesus, that justify us.

Only the past old works of our own without Christ, are excluded from God's commendation to save us. And only the good new works with Jesus Christ commend us to be justified by Christ.

Like Paul, we must rebuke and repent of all past works of our own righteousness, which we have done, to have faith to be saved by Christ. And like James, we must do the new good works of God's righteousness to be justified through Christ.

I.e. repent and believe the gospel to be converted to God and now do His will.

The lesson here is to teach any of the Bible from all of the Bible; otherwise, the whole Bible is corrupted.

 

[Ghada]

Romans 5 is only a very small amount of many scriptures that could be heap upon you to show you are preaching a lie.

Once again, How can I possibly know I am teaching a lie, if you are not speaking of my words, but your own?

I've taught errors about the Bible, and been soundly corrected. But that was only when they corrected what I taught, and not something else.

Let me answer this for you, by asking you a question, or two. "Was Abraham a friend of God"? If your answer is scriptural, then you should say, yes he was a friend of God. As far as that goes, about Moses, Samuel, David, and a host of others that are mentioned in Hebrews eleven? Were they justified and even spoke of it?

Of course. In James 2, Abraham being justified by works and called The Friend of God are in the same verses.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Another interesting note, is that James 2 is not quoting from any previous verse of the Bible, about Abraham's justification and being called a Friend.

Only in James 2 does God call Abraham His Friend, by being imputed righteousness through faith and justified by works.

If you read the Scripture without the vail of your own teaching blinding you, then you could answer that question as easily as I.

(Although, not many Christians do take note that what appears to be quoting of OT Scripture in the NT, is actually God writing new Scripture to clarify the old. Such as the Spirit preparing a body for the Son.)

 

[Eleanor]

Once again, How can I possibly know I am teaching a lie, if you are not speaking of my words, but your own?

I've taught errors about the Bible, and been soundly corrected. But that was only when they corrected what I taught, and not something else.
Of course. In James 2, Abraham being justified by works and called The Friend of God are in the same verses.
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Another interesting note, is that James 2 is not quoting from any previous verse of the Bible, about Abraham's justification and being called a Friend.
Only in James 2 does God call Abraham His Friend,

And what is Isa 41:8, chopped liver?

by being imputed righteousness through faith and justified by works.
If you read the Scripture without the vail of your own teaching blinding you, then you could answer that question as easily as I.

Seems his veil is not serving him too badly.

(Although, not many Christians do take note that what appears to be quoting of OT Scripture in the NT, is actually God writing new Scripture to clarify the old. Such as the Spirit preparing a body for the Son.)

 

[Ghada]

Were all of their sins forgiven, past, present and future? Yes they were, as far as God view them in Christ from the foundation of the world where grace was freely giving to them and Jesus appointed to be their surety before God.

This is reverted back to practiced pretty speeches trying to only sound like the Bible, without teaching the exact words of the Bible.

It contradicts Paul and Peter who only speak of being forgiven past and old sins.

It's also a doctrine that must end in a seared conscience to the Spirit of grace. If someone really believes they are already forgiven, then they should not seek forgiveness for sins already forgiven. While this is certainly true of past repented sins, it is not true for present sinning. (The devil does not convict any man while sinning with him against God)

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

And so, while should not allow the devil to keep bringing up old forgiven sins, we must not resist the Spirit of grace convicting us of present sinning.

1 john 1 & 2 says that if we do sin after conversion, then we must confess with godly sorrow to be forgiven by Jesus our Advocate. This of course proves that present and future sinning cannot be forgiven by Jesus without first repenting with godly sorrow, it also goes straight to the matter of a seared conscience.

If we believe we are already forgiven, then any conviction to repent and being forgiven, becomes anathema and a 'test of our faith' in our own doctrine. We would have to practice sealing our conscience to all such conviction. And since it is only the Holy Spirit that convicts of present sinning (to turn us back to God and His forgiveness), then that practice is to sear the conscience to God.

Indeed, we must now call the Spirit's work of conviction for present sins, the 'guilt-tripping' work of the devil, as though they were past sins already forgiven.

And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

And in addition, the doctrine of no more being judged and condemned with the world, even while sinning with the world, leads straight to more searing of the conscience to the Spirit, who convicts those sinning of God's judgment to come.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

At any point we can stop and discuss any scriptures you think we are not understanding properly.

Be glad to, as soon as you quote me accurately first. I'd be glad to understand a good correction from the Bible, or if you like, clarify more about what I do teach from the Bible.

And if you can show where any of my responses to your points are not accurate from the verses I give, then you can take a stab at those too. Especially this one about already forgiven of all present sinning leading straight to the seared conscience by resisting the conviction of the Spirit for present sinning.

The Bible also calls it doing despite to the Spirit of grace.

But remember. As with my initial teachings, quote my responses to you accurately first.

More on "the washing of His blood from all past sins" ....later.

Looking forward to it.

 

[Ghada]

And what is Isa 41:8, chopped liver?

Great correction! I've not had one in a while. It doesn't change the fact of Abraham being called the Friend of God with His justification by works, but certainly I'll remember it. One thing I'll remember to do, is to say "So far as I know..."

And, I wasn't going to make a deal out of it. But since you rightly bring it up, it does show that your calling David and others the friends of God is not correct.

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

They are the seed of His friend Abraham. It does not say they too were His friends. Only until Jesus on earth, does God speak of all His disciples being His friends (if like Abraham we too are imputed righteousness by the faith of Abraham and justified by works like he.)

Now, So far as I know...Is 41 and James 2 are the only verses speaking of Abraham being called His Friend. And now so far as I know...I don't see any other verse calling any other man the friend of God in the OT.

Good job. Now, you not only quoted me accurately, but also corrected me with simple verse of the Bible. I always suspect people either do not refer to what I teach at all, or misquote me, in order to avoid what they have no simple answer from from the Bible.

Seems his veil is not serving him too badly.

Such as here.

 

[Eleanor]

This is reverted back to practiced pretty speeches trying to only sound like the Bible, without teaching the exact words of the Bible.

It contradicts Paul and Peter who only speak of being forgiven past and old sins.

Scripture?

It is not "sins" which are the issue on the cross.

The issue is our at birth
1) being "by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath" (Eph 2:3),
2) "condemnation for all men" as the result of Adam's one trespass imputed to us (Ro 5:12-19),
3) total inability to be justified by observing the law (Gal 3:15).

It's also a doctrine that must end in a seared conscience to the Spirit of grace. If someone really believes they are already forgiven, then they should not seek forgiveness for sins already forgiven. While this is certainly true of past repented sins, it is not true for present sinning.

Straw man. . .

See 1 Jn 1:8-10.

 

[Eleanor]

Great correction! I've not had one in a while. It doesn't change the fact of Abraham being called the Friend of God with His justification by works,

"Justification" having two meanings:
1) to prove to be true - used by James (Abraham's sacrifice 40 years later proved his righteousness by faith),
2) declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, right standing with justice; i.e., forensic righteousness - used by Paul.

but certainly I'll remember it. One thing I'll remember to do, is to say "So far as I know..."
And, I wasn't going to make a deal out of it. But since you rightly bring it up, it does show that your calling David and others the friends of God is not correct.

"As soon as you quote me accurately first". . .

thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
They are the seed of His friend Abraham. It does not say they too were His friends. Only until Jesus on earth, does God speak of all His disciples being His friends (if like Abraham we too are imputed righteousness by the faith of Abraham and justified by works like he.)
Now, So far as I know...Is 41 and James 2 are the only verses speaking of Abraham being called His Friend. And now so far as I know...I don't see any other verse calling any other man the friend of God in the OT.

Relevance?

Good job. Now, you not only quoted me accurately, but also corrected me with simple verse of the Bible. I always suspect people either do not refer to what I teach at all, or misquote me, in order to avoid what they have no simple answer from from the Bible.

Sounds like ass-u-me to me. . .

 

[Ghada]

Apples and oranges. . .

Not to the Bible nor me. Especially when people use it to justify continued sinning, and believing their souls are saved apart from their works, while sinning.

Actually it is your confounding of Tit 3 with Eph 2 and Ro 3 which corrupts them.

Tit 3 is post-justification, while Eph 2 and Ro 3 are pre-justification, which you have confounded.

A new one, thanks. I never think the ditch has run dry, not matter the myriad amount of times, that I've seen new ways to twist the Bible around into something else.

For by grace are ye saved... is pre-justification? We can be saved without being justified?

This is actually what you must preach, in order to be saved by faith with no works. Being pre-justified by grace through faith alone. (Being justified only 'comes later' with justifying works of faith)

Being justified freely by his grace... this of course won't work at all for being pre-justified.

While your effort is indeed unique to me, there are 3 errors.

1. With Eph 2, James 2 is not just rebuking being justified with no works, but also being saved, since faith without works can save no man.

Therefore. Eph 2 still is limited in works exclusion by Titus 2. (Unless you want to say it's also about pre-salvation.)

2. And since it's not possible to be pre- nor post- justified justified, then 'pre-' Col 3 remains tied to 'post-' Titus 3.

3. And even taking your feint to be serious, then if being post-justified only excludes past works of our own righteousness, then being still justified includes new good works of His righteousness.

As I said, I always do appreciate a new twist of Bible things, because it's a good exercise to know precisely the Bible things in order to detwist them.

I'll remember to use your teaching elsewhere, about being Eph 2 pre-justification saved without Titus 3 post-justification, or rather being saved by faith without works, before being justified by works.

 

[Ghada]

"Justification" having two meanings:
1) to prove to be true - used by James (Abraham's sacrifice 40 years later proved his righteousness by faith),
2) declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, right standing with justice; i.e., forensic righteousness - used by Paul.

Just repeating yourself is not responding the challenge, nor continuing the debate.

I'm more than happy to just offer differing teachings without challenges, if you wish.

Relevance?

You've rightly corrected me about a side argument of when Abraham was first called friend in the Bible.

But you've not responded to the main argument.

The challenge was to show where Abraham being a friend of God and being justified with God, is together in the Bible. It's not in Is 41, but it is in James 2.

James 2 clarifies Is 41, that Abraham was a friend of God, because He was justified with God by his work of faith, when he had offered up Isaac.

Until that time, as far as I know...Abraham is imputed righteousness by believing God, but not spoken of as being justified by God, until after the offering.

As with Abraham in James 2, being a friend of the Lord's is by faith and being justified by works.

 

[Eleanor]

Not to the Bible nor me. Especially when people use it to justify continued sinning, and believing their souls are saved apart from their works, while sinning.
A new one, thanks. I never think the ditch has run dry, not matter the myriad amount of times, that I've seen new ways to twist the Bible around into something else.
For by grace are ye saved... is pre-justification? We can be saved without being justified?

Didn't pay attention to post #129.

"Justification" (dikaiosis) has two meanings:
1) to prove (demonstrate) to be true - used by James (Abraham's sacrifice 40 years later proved his righteousness by faith),
2) declaration of "not guilty," sentence of acquittal, right standing with justice; i.e., forensic righteousness - used by Paul.

We are not justified (declared not guilty) until we believe and our sin is remitted.

This is actually what you must preach, in order to be saved by faith with no works. Being pre-justified by grace through faith alone. (Being justified only 'comes later' with justifying works of faith)

Not according to Ro 3:20-21, 24-25 28, Ac 13:39, Gal 2:16, 3:11.

Being justified freely by his grace... this of course won't work at all for being pre-justified.
While your effort is indeed unique to me, there are 3 errors.
With Eph 2, James 2 is not just rebuking being justified with no works, but also being saved, since faith without works can save no man.

See Eph 2:8-9.

Therefore. Eph 2 still is limited in works exclusion by Titus 2. (Unless you want to say it's also about pre-salvation.)

Previously addressed. . .

 

[Red Baker]

Ok, if you believe so, then I'll move on to a new point.

Sir, wherever you move to, you can be met with scriptures showing just how confused you are.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2)

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3)

These two scriptures are acutely not speaking of the same truth, close, but not quite.

In Ephesians 2:8,9~Faith that is a gift, is speaking of Christ's faith that he had! Believers live by that faith, since we had none to begin with, not even the possibility of having any, ( until we are first born again by the Spirit of God ) since we are by nature at enmity against God. Have you never consider:

Galatians 2:20,21~"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

Obviously you have not. Maybe more on this later

Taking all verses of the Bible together, we see a clarification about saving faith that is 'not of works'. Without Titus 3, we could say that saving and justifying faith is not of any works at all.

We can say it with Titus 3, why not?

However with Titus 3, all works are not apart from saving faith.

Yes they are! Spiritual good works are only the evidence that one has been born again, not the means thereof in any way. Even then, works in the very spiritual minded saints are mixed with imperfections, even in our prayers! To believe otherwise is to be blinded by your deceitful heart that you will carry to your grave.

The works that are not of saving faith, are only those past filthy works of man's own righteousness, which we have done done without Christ.

Sir, there are no other works other than filthy works sinners who are at enmity against God can do! You are the one quoting Titus three, did you not read:

Titus 3:3~"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another.

That's the life of all sinners before regeneration~there are no exceptions!

It's the new good works which we now do in Christ Jesus,

Ghada~if you are saying here that good works start once one is born again, then we agree.

the works James 2 says no man is saved nor justified without.

That is, no man has the evidence that he is a child of God without works, works justifies us practically speaking ~ that is, they show forth clear evidence that we are of God. You inserted the word saved in James two when James used the word Justified, even though I would agree that the word saved can be used in a practical sense, just as long as the teacher explains the sense in which he is using the word.

Titus 3 shows Eph 2 was not contradicting James 2, as though all works we do are separated from our saving faith. It is only past works we have done without saving faith, that are excluded.

We have just proved you are very confused in teaching what you desire to teach, in order to exalt your work gospel. Ephesians 2, Titus three, and James 2, are all teaching different truths, on different subjects.

 

[Ghada]

Not according to Ro 3:20-21, 24-25 28, Ac 13:39, Gal 2:16, 3:11.

I know it's not Bible. It's what you're preaching with your 'pre-justification' Eph 2 and Rom 3, and 'post-justification' Titus 3.

If you don't think so, then show why not. Quote what you say and what I say side by side, then show how they are not the same.

You are teaching a pre-justification salvation without works, from Eph 2 and Rom 3. You preach being saved by faith before being justified by new good works with God. Which you would call 'post-justification'.

See Eph 2:8-9.

With Eph 2, James 2 is not just rebuking being justified with no works, but also being saved, since faith without works can save no man.
See James 2:14 and my response first.

A proper give and take not only includes accurate quoting the words of others, which you have done, but also must show how the words are not accurately representing the evidence given.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

I say the answer is a given no. James 2:14 is that faith without works can save no man.

Do you answer James 2:14 with a yes, that faith without works can save a man?

 

[Ghada]

These two scriptures are acutely not speaking of the same truth, close, but not quite.

Really? Different truths in the Bible, not just one truth, one Lord, one doctrine, one faith, one God the Father...

It's the devil that practices coming close to the truth, but not quite the truth.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

Rather than simply be corrected in any point whatsoever in your personal doctrine of faith, you are now willing to separate the subjects of Eph 2 and Titus 3, just so you can say the works therein do not apply to the same topic. And yet the topic is the same: salvation and works.

Being saved by grace in Eph 2 is not the same 'truth', as being saved by mercy in Titus 3? It is.

Therefore, the works are the same truth that pertain to salvation. The subject of salvation and works is the same, and the one truth of God in Eph 2 is made clear in Titus 3: The works in Eph 2 only pertain to our past righteous works, which we have done without Christ.

Our own righteousness of the past does not commend any man to God's salvation. Being saved by God is only by present repentance from dead works to have the faith of Jesus.

We are saved by grace through faith, not of works which we have done without Christ. This does not contradict James 2, where God declares we are only justified by works, and not by faith alone. Those works are the new good works we now do through Christ.

We are saved and justified by grace through faith alone, and not of any works we did nor do, contradicts James 2.

What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Once again, I love having the one true doctrine of the Bible more perfectly clarified for me, when it is necessary to correct some of the most outlandish errors come up with, by them that refuse to simply be corrected, be thankful for it, and move on with better understanding of the one truth of God's word.

Thank you

We can say it with Titus 3, why not?

Because you just tried to make a subtle case, that Eph 2 cannot be 'perfectly' tied to Titus 3, since there are two close but subtly different truths separating them. They do not have the same truth.

Remember?

You are preaching separation between 2 verses of the Bible with 2 different truths about the same subject: Salvation by grace and salvation by mercy, and the works that do not apply.

I say again, it truly is incredible to see the depths to which some Christians will go just not to be corrected in the least. The Bible must be undone as one whole unified truth and word of God, just so you can hold to your personal doctrine of faith.

 

[ChristB4us]

And moreover, your initial statement opposes the Bible, that says not only are remissions of sins by repentance, but also salvation of God:

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

The remission of sins initially for the believer in Jesus Christ is repenting from unbelief by believing in Him; hence only regards to salvation.

This was the call to repent was about as given to the Jews by Peter that were pricked in their hearts for crucifying Jesus in unbelief.

Acts 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. 39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. 40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Because of the convoluted message given in Acts 2:38, some believe water baptism in Jesus's name brought this remission of sins, but not so. This same Peter preached the same gospel to the Gentiles as he did to the Jews on how that remission of sins was to come about.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

So the call to repent to the Jews was for the Jews that had crucified Him in unbelief, to repent of that unbelief by believing in Jesus Christ.

Now reconciled with God through Jesus Christ and with Jesus Christ in us, we have hope in Him for following him in living that life of repentance by running that race as a saved disciple by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us lay aside every weight & sin daily in walking in the light in fellowship with the Father & the Son.

I do see repentance of unbelief by believing in Him is the only requirement for salvation and yet a life of repentance by faith in Jesus Christ is required for discipleship in following Him as we can only live this reconciled relationship with God the Father by faith in Jesus Christ, and thus through Jesus Christ.

 

[Ghada]

Spiritual good works are only the evidence that one has been born again

Yes, I have heard this rendering of James 2, that the works are only for evidence of faith to be seen and approved of men. They are not to be seen of God for His approval and justification.

But all their works they do for to be seen of men.
And since such works are for outward show only, and not judged by God to justify or condemn a man, then all such works are surface faith alone. Or rather only faith surfacing to be seen of men.

The result is a surface religion for surface works only, where the soul trusts entirely upon believing, and nothing upon doing the work. All the works are only outward appearances at best, and not exact representations of the inner spirit, by which to judge the soul.

And when this teaching of surface works only (as a sort of fruit show of faith), is combined with the unbelief of the world, that it is impossible to repent and cease lusting and sinning, it makes also perfect fit for Christian Pharisees.

Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

Afterall, what is a Pharisee if not a person of faith, whose faith is only to be seen by men for a surface show and appearance of doing good, while still lusting and sinning with the spirit?

When works are only for an outward evidence and show to men, with continued inward lusting of heart and corruption of the inner man, is certainly the Bible textbook definition of Pharisaic surface religion only.

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Not only do such Pharisees of evidentiary outward faith-shows, declare it is impossible to circumcise and cleanse the heart and and life from all lust and sinning, they really don't see the point in the first place.

Afterall, since outward works are only shows for the benefit of other believers, and the soul is not judged by any works (including lusting within), then all the spiritual purity and wellness of soul is only by believing in God within, even if we are transgressing against His law without.

But, I will admit Christian Pharisees are a 'kinder gentler' version of the Jews. Since they do not believe God judges them by their works, then neither do they judge one another by their works. I mean, it's nice to have public honor for showing at least some works of faith, but it's not like it's necessary to the soul or anything like that.

 

[Eleanor]

I know it's not Bible.

And that is the problem.

 

[Red Baker]

Really? Different truths in the Bible, not just one truth, one Lord, one doctrine, one faith, one God the Father...

Ghada,

You are adding to the scriptures, with a weak argument of trying to oppose the truth, by saying that there is one doctrine, when actually there are several doctrines taught in God's word in one cohesive manner from Genesis to Revelation.

Ephesians 4:4-6~"There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

Where in Ephesians 4:4-6 do you read of one doctrine? There is one truth concerning every separate doctrine taught in the scriptures. I think you understand this, you are just trying to spin what we said in #133 above, concerning which, you truly made no attempt to disprove what I said by using scriptures, and the reason why is that you cannot.

It's the devil that practices coming close to the truth, but not quite the truth.

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

Strawman~you are desperate trying to convince others that you are answering my post, when in fact you cannot. Most of your post is useless verbiage, growing through the motion of seemly contended for the truth, when in fact, you are an enemy of God's truth by pushing Satan's gospel of works in order to be accepted by God.

Rather than simply be corrected in any point whatsoever in your personal doctrine of faith,

Oh, I'm willing if you just have truth, then by means, prove your position. GO back and look at #133 above that I posted to you, where did you even attempt to take what I said and show me that I'm wrong? No where, so do not accuse me of not being willing to be corrected. If you did and then I refused then you would have a valid case, so far you have not.

you are now willing to separate the subjects of Eph 2 and Titus 3, just so you can say the works therein do not apply to the same topic.

Once again, works are mentioned in both places~yet in Ephesians 2:8,9 Paul is teaching that our works had nothing to do with us being saved from sin and condemnation~faith, which is the gift of God to us, was secured by Jesus Christ, was not ours personally, but HIS FAITH, and the elect were IN CHRIST while he lived in this world and the faith and obedience that Christ had was as though they themselves had it since the elect were members of his body, he being the head thereof. Have you never considered:

Ephesians 2:4-9~"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

God has always loved those he chose to be in Christ, and he has never view us legally outside of Christ, never! When Christ lived in this world God view us IN HIM. When Christ died, we die with him; when he arose from the dead, we arose with him, where he now sits, we sit with him, legally speaking, something you the work mongers know nothing about. I see why Paul twice said..,,,By grace are ye saved !

Titus three is not addressing subject~We shall return and consider Titus three.

 

[Red Baker]

Being saved by grace in Eph 2 is not the same 'truth', as being saved by mercy in Titus 3? It is.

The words salvation/saved/save are used in different senses in the scriptures, even you quoted Nehemiah 8:8 above which said:

Nehemiah 8:8~"So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading."

When you said these words:

Ghada: So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.
You're welcome to start over and try again to respond to what I actually teach.

So, do "you" truly believe and practice what Ezra and those after him did when expounding the word of God? I think not~at least, so far from what I have read you do not.

The subject of God's "so great salvation" (Hebrews 2:3), as it is revealed to us in the Scriptures and made known in Christian experience, is worthy of a life's study. Anyone who supposes that there is now no longer any need for him to prayerfully search for a fuller understanding of the same, needs to ponder, "If any man thinks that he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought to know" (1st Corinthians 8:2). The fact is that the moment any of us really takes it for granted that he already knows all that there is to be known on any subject treated of in Holy Writ, he at once cuts himself off from any further light thereon. That which is most needed by all of us in order to a better understanding of Divine things is not a brilliant intellect ~ but a truly humble heart and a teachable spirit, and for that we should daily and fervently pray~for we possess it not by nature.

The subject of Divine salvation has, sad to say, provoked age-long controversy and bitter contentions even among professing Christians. There is comparatively little real agreement even upon this elementary yet vital truth. Some have insisted that salvation is by Divine grace, others have argued it is by human endeavor. A number have sought to defend a middle position, and while allowing that the salvation of a lost sinner must be by Divine grace, were not willing to concede that it is by grace alone, alleging that God's grace must be plussed by something from the creature, and very varied have been the opinions of what that "something" must be—baptism, church-membership, the performing of good works, holding out faithful to the end, etc. On the other hand, there are those ( myself one of them ) who not only grant that salvation is by grace alone—but who deny that God uses any means whatever in the accomplishment of His eternal purpose to save His elect ~ defending the truth that the sacrifice of Christ is the only "means" to save them from sin and condemnation! It is a bible truth that the Church of God was blessed with super-creation blessings, being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world, and predestinated unto the adoption of children, and nothing could or can alter that biblical truth. It is equally true that if sin had never entered the world, none had been in need of salvation from it. But sin has entered, and the Tabernacle of David (the very elect) fell in Adam and came under the curse and condemnation of God's Law.

Consequently, the elect, equally with the reprobate, share in the capital offense of their federal head, and partake of its fearful entail, "In Adam all die" (1st Corinthians 15:22), "By the offense of one, judgment came upon all men to condemnation" (Romans 5:18). The result of this is that all are "alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their hearts" (Ephesians 4:18), so that the members of the mystical Body of Christ are "by nature (only) the children of wrath, even as others" (Eph. 2:3), and hence they are alike in dire need of God's salvation.

Even where there is fundamental soundness in their views upon Divine salvation—yet many have such inadequate and one-sided conceptions that other aspects of this truth, equally important and essential, are often overlooked and tacitly denied. How many, for example, would be capable of giving a simple exposition of the following texts, "Who has saved us" (2nd Timothy 1:9). "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" (Philippians 2:12), "Now is our salvation nearer than when we believed" (Romans 13:11). Now those verses do not refer to three different salvations—but to three separate aspects of one and unless we learn to distinguish sharply between them, there can be nothing but confusion and cloudiness in our thinking~much like you are between Ephesians 2 and Titus three. Those passages present different distinct phases and stages of salvation—salvation . . .​

as an accomplished fact,
as a present process,
as a future prospect.​

So many today ignore these distinctions, jumbling them together. Some contend for one and argue against the other two; and vice versa. Some insist they are already saved, and deny that they are now being saved. Some declare that salvation is entirely future, and deny that it is in any sense already accomplished. Both are wrong.

The fact is, that the great majority of professing Christians fail to see that "salvation" is one of the most comprehensive terms in all the Scriptures, including election, predestination, regeneration, justification, sanctification and glorification~each one of there are found in all of the different phrases of salvation for the most part. They have far too cramped an idea of the meaning and scope of the word "salvation" (as it is used in the Scriptures), narrowing its range too much, generally confining their thoughts to but a single phase. They suppose "salvation" means no more than the new birth or the forgiveness of sins, or saved from hellfire. Were one to tell them that salvation is a protracted process, they would view him with suspicion; and if he affirmed that salvation is something awaiting us in the future, they would at once dub him a heretic. Yet they would be the ones to err.

Ask the average Christian, Are you saved, and he answers, Yes, I was saved in such and such a year; and that is as far as his thoughts on the subject go. Ask him, to what do you owe your salvation? and "the finished work of Christ" is the sum of his reply. Tell him that each of those answers is seriously defective, and he strongly resents your aspersion.

As an example of the confusion which now prevails, we quote the following from a tract on Philippians 2:12, "To whom are those instructions addressed? The opening words of the Epistle tell us—'To the saints in Christ Jesus' . . . Thus they were all believers! and could not be required to work for their salvation, for they already possessed it." Alas that so very few today perceive anything wrong in such a statement. Another "Bible teacher" tells us that "save yourself" (1st Timothy 4:16) must refer to deliverance from physical ills, as Timothy was already saved spiritually. True—yet it is equally true that he was then in process of being saved, and also a fact that his salvation was then future.

I need to stop before I go over my word limit~I'll come back, the Lord willing.​