What is : Imputed Righteousness

[Arial]

It's what some Christians teach. Just without all the pseudo-biblical varnish they cover it with.

Why make an argument against Christianity if what you are opposing only amounts to what "some Christians" teach? We only have your word for it that any do. And what is all the pseudo-biblical varnish?

I understand it perfectly. It's the Christian sinners gospel of being saved and justified by faith alone without works.

You show you do not understand it when you call it the sinners gospel of being saved without works. It is the scriptures that tell us works do not save----they didn't before Christ and they don't now. Gal 2:15-15 We ourselves are jews by birth and nt Getile sinners; yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, we we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not be works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
21. I do not nullify the grace of God,for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
Being joined to Christ through faith---that is a branch in the Vine---He produces the good fruit---good works. Obedience.

They doctrinally separate their 'saving' faith from how they live, in order to justify themselves while still sinning. Maybe less than before, but certainly never ceasing to sin.

No they don't. Most likely that is what you would do if you believed in grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, for the glory of God alone. I say that because you present your argument as though you know all Christians, see all Christians, hear all Christians. BTW have you ceased to sin? ANd is the only thing holding you back from sinning as you please the bit and bridle you have put on?

So, you teach it too, with the same usual pseudo-biblical varnish. What's the end of your pretty speech? Still sinning.

Your Christianity has sinning members still sinning, but not the non-sinning body of the sinless Head Jesus Christ.

I am not teaching that it is ok to sin. I am stating a fact of life, all people, including you, your pastor, and the members of your church, still sin. So if you are proclaiming yourself to be without sin--I'll let James tell you want that says about you. To claim such a thing is a sin and an unrepentant sin. The sin of pride and arrogance and hypocrisy. It also declares the insufficiency of Christ.

(I had to edit out the entire last half of your post and should have deleted the entire post, for inappropriate content and false accusations. You better rein in the way in which you say things or you won't be here long. We are not having that sort of thing on this forum.)

 

[Ghada]

No they don't. Most likely that is what you would do if you believed in grace alone, faith alone, Christ alone, for the glory of God alone. I say that because you present your argument as though you know all Christians, see all Christians, hear all Christians.


BTW have you ceased to sin? ANd is the only thing holding you back from sinning as you please the bit and bridle you have put on?

I am not teaching that it is ok to sin. I am stating a fact of life, all people, including you, your pastor, and the members of your church, still sin. So if you are proclaiming yourself to be without sin--I'll let James tell you want that says about you. To claim such a thing is a sin and an unrepentant sin. The sin of pride and arrogance and hypocrisy. It also declares the insufficiency of Christ.

(I had to edit out the entire last half of your post and should have deleted the entire post, for inappropriate content and false accusations. You better rein in the way in which you say things or you won't be here long. We are not having that sort of thing on this forum.)

When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

 

[Eleanor]

I probably split too much hair.
Obedience unto righteousness is instantly the same. Obeying God and doing His righteousness are interchangeable.
I only object to the Christian teaching that having mean means being righteous, before doing it. And the worst one is having saving faith apart from doing God's will.

We have no actual righteousness (holiness) without actual obedience.
We have forensic righteousness (right standing with the Court, debt paid) imputed to us by God in justification through faith apart from works (Ro 3:28, 4:1-11).

I see a misunderstanding here of "righteousness" as used in the NT. There are two kinds of righteousness:
1) forensic = justification, which is a declaration of "not gulty," a sentence of acquittal, a legal finding of (positional) right standing with the Court--penalty paid, no debt owing, in good standing. It means no sin on the books, clean slate, God's declaration of right(eous) standing now credited (imputed) to one (Ro 1:17, 3:20, 28, 9:30).

2) actual = holiness, through obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).

Objection to the first; i.e., justification/imputed righteousness, is objection to the NT word of God in Ro 1:17, 3:20, 28, 9:30.

You believe doing the righteousness of God includes sinning?

I don't "do" the righteousness of God. I do obedience which leads to my personal growth in righteousness, leading to holiness (Ro 6:16-22).

We have a sort of 'generally' righteous life with sinning mixed in from time to time? That is called man's righteousness and filthy rags to God.
God's repentance

Repentance is a "change of mind, a turning."
Are you referring to God repenting?

is of all sins and trespasses at once, not just in part gradually.

Are you referring to the remission of sin through faith in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for that remission and reconciliation to God?

Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.
Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
God's righteousness is doing His will at all times, not just in part some of the time.
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

Are you saying all your sins were forgiven, when Jesus died on a cross? Do you believe that all your sins, past, present, and future are already forgiven?

My sin debt has been paid in full, for God in Christ does not present an incomplete salvation. That is an insult to his perfect work.
That salvation includes a new birth into eternal life, and God's indwelling Holy Spirit giving me a new disposition, sanctifying and keeping me through obedience in that Holy Spirit. And
"If I claim to be without sin, I deceive myself and the truth is not in me.
If I confess my sin, he is faithful and just to forgive my sin and purify me from all unrighteousness.
If I claim I have not sinned, I make God out to be a liar and his word has no place in m life." (1 Jn 1:8-10)

It's on our cross we take up for Jesus' sake, that our whole past life is forgiven and washed away. That is only when we repent of transgressing and believe the gospel to obey Jesus from a new heart.

That, my child is, a works' righteousness, the complete antithesis of the NT gospel. That is precisely what Paul anathamatizes in Gal 1:6-9.
"We are saved (from God's wrath, Ro 5:9). . .through faith. . .not by works." (Eph 2:8-9)

No man's sins were forgiven when Jesus died on the cross, but rather all men were judged as sinners and concluded in unbelief.

That is not in the NT.
We are born in unbelief and remain so until the new birth, faith and salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9), under which we are born,
because we are by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).

When unrighteous men slew the Lamb of God on the cross, all men that have sinned and shall sin, were condemned as unrighteous by our works. Every sinner was made guilty when the Son was crucified. Not just those doing the evil deed.
If you are doubling down on a sort of gradual sanctification, where Christians sin less than before, then I still reject it.

You are free to reject any (Ro 6:16-22) and all of God's word.
Sin is about the heart, is it in submission to God or is it still its own ruler.
But the heart submissive to God is not perfect (1 Jn 1:8-10) until the resurrection.

I think we're splitting hairs again. My only objection is with the Christian religion of separating faith and righteousness from doing it, in order to be saved by faith and imputed righteousness alone, while not doing it.

Objection to the "Christian religion" is objection to God.
And NT apostolic teaching, the authority for that religion (Jesus never wrote a thing), is that "salvation is. . .through grace. . .not by works" (Eph 2:8-9). So to be sure you are not misunderstanding what the NT teaches, let me explain:

All true faith has works of obedience. There is no true faith without its works of obedience.
But those works necessary to true faith are not what save from God's wrath on sin. Only the faith itself of those works saves (Eph 2:8-9).
And God has separated faith from its necessary works in salvation (only) so that no man can boast. God's salvation is by him and him alone.
"Salvation is the Lord's!" (Rev 7:10) Sinful man has nothing to contribute.

Some say that at least some righteous works must follow, others say no works ever have anything to do with being saved and imputed righteousness by faith alone. They reject James 2 that with new works of Jesus' faith we are saved and justified with Christ.
When we are born again, circumcised and sanctified in Christ Jesus, it is instant spiritually and bodily. The new pure heart is given and the life is wiped clean of past unrighteousness.

And at that point God credits (imputes) a clean (righteous) slate to us in justification/forensic righteousness, not an actual righteousness of our character.

And so, we need sanctification once, and we keep ourselves sanctified by doing His righteousness.

So which is it? Do we need sanctification, or are we already sanctified?
We are not sanctified by the imputed righteousness of justification, we are only declared "free from guilt."
It is by obedience in the Holy Spirit that we then acquire and grow in sanctification (Ro 6:16-22).
And we are never sinless (1 Jn 1:8-10). We are not sinners as are the unregenerate, but we also are not sinless.

 

[ReverendRV]

When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.

Amen @Ghada . Would you say that though certain Doctrines such as the Hypostatic Union are not explicitly stated within this Verse, All Good Doctrines can still be found within Systematic Theology?

Yes; hearing, they were Cut to the heart. Though Hearing is explicitly stated in the Verse; it's wrong to Logically and Summarily exclude the New Birth occurring before our Hearing, from rightly existing within Systematic Theology. Right?


I'll let you in on a Secret; we are not really arguing Scripture, but truly Arguing Systematic Theology. Everyone has a Pretext; right?

 

[Ghada]

We have no actual righteousness (holiness) without actual obedience.

True. Only those doing His righteousness are righteous as He is.

We have forensic righteousness (right standing with the Court, debt paid) imputed to us by God in justification through faith apart from works (Ro 3:28, 4:1-11).

The justification of Christ is never apart from works. (James 2)

I see a misunderstanding here of "righteousness" as used in the NT. There are two kinds of righteousness:
1) forensic = justification, which is a declaration of "not gulty," a sentence of acquittal, a legal finding of (positional) right standing with the Court--penalty paid, no debt owing, in good standing. It means no sin on the books, clean slate, God's declaration of right(eous) standing now credited (imputed) to one (Ro 1:17, 3:20, 28, 9:30).

2) actual = holiness, through obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16, 19, 22).

Imputed righteousness is with repentance of dead works and faith toward God. Everything following is the righteousness of God by doing it.

If we sin, then sin is imputed with no righteousness of God while doing unrighteousness.

Objection to the first; i.e., justification/imputed righteousness, is objection to the NT word of God in Ro 1:17, 3:20, 28, 9:30.

Paul preaches against works of our own righteousness without the faith of God from the heart, and James preaches against having our own faith without works of God's righteousness.

I don't "do" the righteousness of God. I do obedience which leads to my personal growth in righteousness, leading to holiness (Ro 6:16-22).

I do.

Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that is doing righteousness at all times.

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that is doing righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
There is no righteousness nor growth in righteousness, while not doing His righteousness.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever is not doing righteousness is not of God.

 

[Ghada]

Repentance is a "change of mind, a turning."

Change of mind repentance is by man's definition, not God's in the Bible. God never speaks of repentance of the mind or change of thoughts, but only of the heart from dead works.

Change of mind repentance is for hearer's only. They now know the law of Christ in the mind, but have yet to repent and do the word. They have their mind changed about sinning, but not their heart changed from sinning.

God justifies a changed heart from sinning, not just a changed mind about sinning. Sinning is still not justified with God, even if the mind 'hates' it while doing it.

With God, loving righteousness is by doing it, and hating iniquity is by not doing it.

 

[Ghada]

Are you referring to the remission of sin through faith in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for that remission and reconciliation to God?

I am referring to repentance of sinning for the remission of sin through faith in Jesus, and the washing of His blood from all past sins.

Are you referring to all sins past, present, and future being already forgiven?

My sin debt has been paid in full, for God in Christ does not present an incomplete salvation. That is an insult to his perfect work.

The only sins of man paid in full, or past sins repented by man for Jesus' sake.

That salvation includes a new birth into eternal life, and God's indwelling Holy Spirit giving me a new disposition, sanctifying and keeping me through obedience in that Holy Spirit. And

The salvation following repentance from dead works with faith toward God, does.

"If I claim to be without sin, I deceive myself and the truth is not in me.

Anyone still sinning and claiming to be without sin, is deceiving himself. It's the same as anyone sinning and claiming to be in the light and in Christ, in whom is no sin nor any darkness at all.

If I confess my sin, he is faithful and just to forgive my sin and purify me from all unrighteousness.

If we have sinned, yes, we must confess the sin with godly sorrow to be forgiven of the sinning, and be washed whole and clean.

If I claim I have not sinned, I make God out to be a liar and his word has no place in m life." (1 Jn 1:8-10)

True, if anyone sins and says he has not sinned, he is searing the conscience to the conviction of the Spirit of grace.

That, my child is, a works' righteousness, the complete antithesis of the NT gospel.

That my boy is for people sinning, nor for repented saints walking in the light as He is in the light.

That is precisely what Paul anathamatizes in Gal 1:6

Paul warns against having works without faith toward God, and keeping the law of Moses as necessity for obedient Christians.

"We are saved (from God's wrath, Ro 5:9). . .through faith. . .not by works." (Eph 2:8-9)

Not by works which we have done without Christ.

We are born in unbelief

I wasn't born believing nor unbelieving anything. I can't even remember the day or weeks and months following my birth.

and remain so until the new birth, faith and salvation from God's wrath (Ro 5:9), under which we are born,

Christ making babes with sin in the flesh or lust in the heart, is a lie against Christ. It's a false accusation of unrepentant man against God as the One tempting man to sin. God does not make man sinful at conception nor birth, so that man is tempted to lust and sin from the womb. James 1 rebukes that.

We only make ourselves sinful by sinning.

because we are by nature (with which we are born) objects of wrath (Eph 2:3).

Not by any nature of the flesh, but by nature of practice. The Jews were Jews by nature, because they practiced the law from birth.

The only nature born within man, is the divine nature when begotten of God and His word.

 

[Ghada]

Sin is about the heart, is it in submission to God or is it still its own ruler.

True. Sin is by lust of the heart. It began with Lucifer and the angels that sinned, and with Adam and all men that have sinned.

But the heart submissive to God is not perfect (1 Jn 1:8-10) until the resurrection.

If the heart is not perfect toward God, it's because the heart is double not having repented of all sins and trespasses.

The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

And he charged them, saying, Thus shall ye do in the fear of the LORD, faithfully, and with a perfect heart.

I will behave myself wisely in a perfect way. O when wilt thou come unto me? I will walk within my house with a perfect heart.

The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

You're teaching being born again with a whole new and perfect heart toward God, after the grave. A day late and dollar short. No repentance of the heart form lust and sin is granted by God in the grave.

For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

What is made perfect in the resurrection unto life is the spirit, mind, and body.

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

That is when the resurrected saints can't even be tempted to sin any more. On earth, our minds like Jesus can be tempted by the devil to sin.

That is the hope for them whose hearts are made perfect and free from lust like Jesus, by repenting with faith for Jesus.

Objection to the "Christian religion" is objection to God.

Not sinful Christian religion nor sinful Jews religion nor sinful Muslim religion.

Objection to pure religion to be and keep ourselves pure and clean in life, is objection to Jesus Christ's religion.

All true faith has works of obedience. There is no true faith without its works of obedience.

True. There is no faith of Jesus in the old heart of lust, that has not repented of all sins and trespasses. There is no obeying God from a pure heart, while trespassing against Him and His word.

But those works necessary to true faith are not what save from God's wrath on sin. Only the faith itself of those works saves (Eph 2:8-9).

No faith without works, can save nor justify any man with Christ.

And God has separated faith from its necessary works in salvation (only) so that no man can boast.

No, some unrepented Christians have separated their own saving faith from works meet for repentance.

God has no faith separated from His works. He calls such vain faith dead.

God's salvation is by him and him alone.

True. And our repentance and taking up our cross is by us with Jesus alone.

"Salvation is the Lord's!" (Rev 7:10) Sinful man has nothing to contribute.

Sinful man has nothing of the Lord's. All sinful man can do is repent as God commands all men to repent.

And at that point God credits (imputes) a clean (righteous) slate to us in justification/forensic righteousness, not an actual righteousness of our character.

Only if we have repented. If our character is not righteous as the Lord, it's because we have not repented and are still doing unrighteousness against the Lord. We have not received the divine nature of Christ, due to an unrepented old heart of lust.

So which is it? Do we need sanctification, or are we already sanctified?

We need sanctification and circumcision of Christ by repentance of dead works.. We remain sanctified and circumcised by obeying Jesus gospel and faith.

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

We are not sanctified by the imputed righteousness of justification, we are only declared "free from guilt."

Upon repentance from dead works with faith toward God, that is freely given by Jesus Christ.

We are instantly circumcised and sanctified from the old heart, to have a new pure heart in Christ. We keep our heart and life clean through obedience to the Spirit.

Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever

It is by obedience in the Holy Spirit that we then acquire and grow in sanctification (Ro 6:16-22).

True. Obedience to the convicting Spirit's command to repent, and obedience to the Spirit now born within.

Continued obedience is necessary to grow in grace with a pure heart of Christ Jesus.

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

And we are never sinless (1 Jn 1:8-10).

The only sinless man was Jesus. He never sinned in life.

The only men sinning not in Christ Jesus, are them repented of past sinning and now living spiritually and bodily clean in this life.

And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are not sinners as are the unregenerate, but we also are not sinless.

We are not sinning, but we also are not sinless.

Christian saints in Christ are not sinners at all, because we are not sinning against Christ. And we are not sinless, because we have sinned.

If we are sinning as the unregenerate, we are the unregenerate sinners. Anything else is hypocrisy and declaring the Lord to be an unjust judge with respect of persons.

I believe the main difference between us, is that I see you preaching a gospel of believe unto salvation with repentance following. Correct? I preach the gospel of repentance with faith toward God unto salvation following.

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

 

[Ghada]

Amen @Ghada . Would you say that though certain Doctrines such as the Hypostatic Union are not explicitly stated within this Verse,

The hypostatic union of Jesus Christ is divine God in natural flesh and blood.

The 'nature of man' is a misnomer, that attempts to combine being made in the image of God with the natural body.

By nature our bodies are mortal, just as all natural flesh and grass made by Christ on earth.

By nature our souls are spiritually created immortal in the image of God.

If we sin against God, our soul dies apart from God. Our bodies were made to die by God.

So, the nature of man, as opposed to angels, is to be made spiritually in the image of God with mortal flesh, a little lower than the angels made with spiritual bodies.

All Good Doctrines can still be found within Systematic Theology?

If that systematic theology is systematically faithful to all the words of the Bible.

The first step to rightly dividing the word of the truth, is to first rightly divide between what is written, and what is not.

Yes; hearing, they were Cut to the heart. Though Hearing is explicitly stated in the Verse; it's wrong to Logically and Summarily exclude the New Birth occurring before our Hearing, from rightly existing within Systematic Theology. Right?

Are you suggesting being born again of God without first hearing the word of the gospel?

I'll let you in on a Secret; we are not really arguing Scripture, but truly Arguing Systematic Theology. Everyone has a Pretext; right?

I see your point, but do not agree in all cases.

Some are attempting to always argue from the Scriptures, but can err by inserting personal interpretation into the teaching, that Scripture does not confirm. Some are attempting to argue their personal interpretations from their own minds, whether Scripture confirms it or not.

And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind.

Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

The first rule of right ministry is not to argue our personal interpretations as Scriptural teaching, unless the Scriptures first clearly confirm it.

I.e. divide between what is written first, so that we only teach what is written in the end.

 

[Eleanor]

True. Only those doing His righteousness are righteous as He is.

The justification of Christ is never apart from works. (James 2)

Justify has two meanings:

JAMES uses "justified" to mean "proven to be true;" e.g.,
1) His arrest justified (proved true) her distrust of him,
as in: our works justify (prove true) our faith.

2) "A man is justified by (faith which is proven true by) works and not by faith alone (which has no works)." (James 2:24)
Abraham was justified (his 15-year-old faith proven true) by his sacrifice.

PAUL uses "justified" to mean "declared righteous;" i.e.,
Abraham was made righteous (justified) by his true faith (Romans 4:2-3).
It had always been true faith, but his sacrifice showed, proved what it had always been.

In Paul, it is only the faith, not faith's works, which actually justify.

"justified (declared righteous) by faith apart from law" (works)--Romans 3:28)
"a righteousness (justification) from God, apart from law" (works)--(Romans 3:21)
"a man is not justified by observing the law (works), but by faith in Jesus Christ." (Galatians 2:16)
"no one is justified before God by the law (works)"--(Galatians 3:11)
"everyone who believes is justified from everything (sin) you could not be justified from by
(obedience to) law" (Acts 13:39)

However, the real distinction here is not between works and faith,
it is between true faith which saves, and counterfeit faith which does not.
Counterfeit faith has no works of faith, and does not save because it is counterfeit.
Whereas, true faith obeys, and true faith saves/justifies, apart from its obedience, for
"Salvation (and justification) is the Lord's!" (Revelation 7:10) his and his alone (Revelation 19:1; Psalms 37:39), man contributes nothing, his works of faith contribute NOTHING, for he must have nothing about which he could boast (Romans 4:2; 1 Corinthians 1:29; Ephesians 2:9).

And God takes this very seriously. . .he does not yield nor give is glory to another (Isaiah 48:11, Isaiah 42:8), including to faith's works.
Which is why Paul is so emphatic on the subject (having been caught up to the third heaven and all, 2 Corinthians 12:1-8)
that salvation/justification is apart from faith's works.

 

[Ghada]

Justify has two meanings:

God's justification has two necessities: faith and works.

JAMES uses "justified" to mean "proven to be true;" e.g.,
1) His arrest justified (proved true) her distrust of him,
as in: our works justify (prove true) our faith.

2) "A man is justified by (faith which is proven true by) works and not by faith alone (which has no works)." (James 2:24)
Abraham was justified (his 15-year-old faith proven true) by his sacrifice.

PAUL uses "justified" to mean "declared righteous;" i.e.,
Abraham was made righteous (justified) by his true faith (Romans 4:2-3).
It had always been true faith, but his sacrifice showed, proved what it had always been.

In Paul, it is only the faith, not faith's works, which actually justify.

Paul never says only the faith, nor faith alone. He simply emphasizes the necessity of faith for works to justify us with God.

"justified (declared righteous) by faith apart from law" (works)--Romans 3:28)
"a righteousness (justification) from God, apart from law" (works)--(Romans 3:21)
"a man is not justified by observing the law (works), but by faith in Jesus Christ." (Galatians 2:16)
"no one is justified before God by the law (works)"--(Galatians 3:11)
"everyone who believes is justified from everything (sin) you could not be justified from by
(obedience to) law" (Acts 13:39)

However, the real distinction here is not between works and faith,
it is between true faith which saves, and counterfeit faith which does not.
Counterfeit faith has no works of faith, and does not save because it is counterfeit.
Whereas, true faith obeys, and true faith saves/justifies, apart from its obedience, for
"Salvation (and justification) is the Lord's!" (Revelation 7:10) his and his alone (Revelation 19:1; Psalms 37:39), man contributes nothing, his works of faith contribute NOTHING, for he must have nothing about which he could boast (Romans 4:2; 1 Corinthians 1:29; Ephesians 2:9).

And God takes this very seriously. . .he does not yield nor give is glory to another (Isaiah 48:11, Isaiah 42:8), including to faith's works.

The only works that do not justify man with God, are works of our own righteousness without God's faith. No works which we have done without Jesus' faith can justify any man.

Which is why Paul is so emphatic on the subject (having been caught up to the third heaven and all,2 Corinthians 12:1-8)
that salvation/justification is apart from faith's works.

It always amazes me to see so much study and stuff, just to teach the exact opposite the Bible, when someone doesn't like it.

James 2 says no faith apart from works can save nor justify a man.

 

[Ghada]

"Salvation (and justification) is the Lord's!" (Revelation 7:10) his and his alone (Revelation 19:1; Psalms 37:39),

And repenting from dead works to have faith to be saved is our part. Taking up our cross to walk with Jesus is our part.

man contributes nothing, his works of faith contribute NOTHING, for he must have nothing about which he could boast (Romans 4:2; 1 Corinthians 1:29; Ephesians 2:9).

2 Peter 1 says we must add to our faith such things that ensure our salvation by never falling.

 

[Eleanor]

God's justification has two necessities: faith and works.
Paul never says only the faith, nor faith alone. He simply emphasizes the necessity of faith for works to justify us with God.
The only works that do not justify man with God, are works of our own righteousness without God's faith. No works which we have done without Jesus' faith can justify any man.
It always amazes me to see so much study and stuff, just to teach the exact opposite the Bible, when someone doesn't like it.
James 2 says no faith apart from works can save nor justify a man.

And repenting from dead works to have faith to be saved is our part. Taking up our cross to walk with Jesus is our part.
2 Peter 1 says we must add to our faith such things that ensure our salvation by never falling

Previously addressed. . .

 

[Red Baker]

Are you saying all your sins were forgiven, when Jesus died on a cross? Do you believe that all your sins, past, present, and future are already forgiven?

I would like to step in and make a few comments if Eleanor does not mine, since this was directed to her.

 

[Eleanor]

And repenting from dead works to have faith to be saved is our part. Taking up our cross to walk with Jesus is our part.
2 Peter 1 says we must add to our faith such things that ensure our salvation by never falling.

I would like to step in and make a few comments if Eleanor does not mine, since this was directed to her.

Of course Eleanor does not mind

 

[Red Baker]

I am referring to repentance of sinning for the remission of sin through faith in Jesus, and the washing of His blood from all past sins.

Let us just take this one post you gave back to Eleanor and address it, from keeping keep us from going back to all of your unscriptural understanding of God's word. Just about every word you spoke was against the word of God, in support of your gospel based upon works, or/and, man's ability to perform works before being born again by the Spirit of God ~ which is a another gospel, preached by the ministers of Satan, which gospel, Paul put a cursed upon and all that preach such a corrupt gospel, which is not another, since there's only one approved by Heaven's Judge ~ that is......., the gospel of the grace of God, which gospel, states Jesus secured eternal redemption for God's elect, by his faith and obedience alone. All others are cursed by God, by angels and by God's very elect.

I am referring to repentance of sinning for the remission of sin through faith in Jesus, and the washing of His blood from all past sins.

The remission of sins is not based upon repentance, faith, or any other works performed by the sinner~the forgiveness of sin legally speaking is only by Christ's perfect life of obedience, his life, death, and resurrection from the dead, secured the legal forgiveness of the elect sinners sins!

Romans 5:8-10~"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

There are pages of truths we could spend here teaching, but for sake of time, we highlighted certain important truths declared by Paul, to show that no work on man's part is included in the sinners free justification from his sins.

Romans 5 is only a very small amount of many scriptures that could be heap upon you to show you are preaching a lie. More on "the washing of His blood from all past sins" ....later.

Are you referring to all sins past, present, and future being already forgiven?

Let me answer this for you, by asking you a question, or two. "Was Abraham a friend of God"? If your answer is scriptural, then you should say, yes he was a friend of God. As far as that goes, about Moses, Samuel, David, and a host of others that are mentioned in Hebrews eleven? Were they justified and even spoke of it?

Psalms 32:1,2~"Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile."

Were all of their sins forgiven, past, present and future? Yes they were, as far as God view them in Christ from the foundation of the world where grace was freely giving to them and Jesus appointed to be their surety before God.

2nd Timothy 1:9.10~"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:"

At any point we can stop and discuss any scriptures you think we are not understanding properly. But, any person, or, I should say, any reasonable person seeking truth, must consider how God loved and walked with Old Testaments saints before Jesus ever legally paid for their sins. The answer is to be found in such scriptures as Psalms 89, etc.

 

[Red Baker]

Continue from above:

Psalms 89:I will sing of the mercies of the LORD for ever: with my mouth will I make known thy faithfulness to all generations. For I have said, Mercy shall be built up for ever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens. I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant, Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints. For who in the heaven can be compared unto the LORD? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the LORD? God is greatly to be feared in the assembly of the saints, and to be had in reverence of all them that are about him. O LORD God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy faithfulness round about thee? Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof arise, thou stillest them. Thou hast broken Rahab in pieces, as one that is slain; thou hast scattered thine enemies with thy strong arm. The heavens are thine, the earth also is thine: as for the world and the fulness thereof, thou hast founded them. The north and the south thou hast created them: Tabor and Hermon shall rejoice in thy name.
Thou hast a mighty arm: strong is thy hand, and high is thy right hand. Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face. Blessed is the people that know the joyful sound: they shall walk, O LORD, in the light of thy countenance. In thy name shall they rejoice all the day: and in thy righteousness shall they be exalted. For thou art the glory of their strength: and in thy favour our horn shall be exalted. For the LORD is our defence; and the Holy One of Israel is our king. Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people. I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him: With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him. The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him. And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him. But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted. I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him. His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven. If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah."

God has ever acted on the everlasting covenant of grace with Christ and his people.

I'll have to come back and discuss this powerful Psalms that you and your works mongers reject.

 

[Ghada]

Previously addressed. . .

Ok, if you believe so, then I'll move on to a new point.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2)

But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3)

Taking all verses of the Bible together, we see a clarification about saving faith that is 'not of works'. Without Titus 3, we could say that saving and justifying faith is not of any works at all.

However with Titus 3, all works are not apart from saving faith. The works that are not of saving faith, are only those past filthy works of man's own righteousness, which we have done done without Christ.

It's the new good works which we now do in Christ Jesus, that are the works James 2 says no man is saved nor justified without. Titus 3 shows Eph 2 was not contradicting James 2, as though all works we do are separated from our saving faith. It is only past works we have done without saving faith, that are excluded.

Paul is teaching no past works commend us to being saved by God. James is teaching God only commends those that repent and now do His righteousness by His Son's faith.

 

[Eleanor]

If you say so, then I'll try it another way.
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph 2)
But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; (Titus 3)
Taking all verses of the Bible together, we see a clarification about saving faith that is 'not of works'. Without Titus 3, we could say that saving and justifying faith is not of any works at all.
However with Titus 3, all works are not apart from saving faith. The works that are not of saving faith, are only those past filthy works of man's own righteousness, which we have done done without Christ.
It's the new good works which we now do in Christ Jesus, that are the works James 2 says no man is saved nor justified without.
Titus 3 shows Eph 2 was not contradicting James 2, as though all works we do are separated from our saving faith. It is only past works we have done without saving faith, that are excluded.
Paul is teaching no past works commend us to being saved by God.

Commend to salvation.

James is teaching God only commends those that repent and now do His righteousness by His Son's faith.

Comment to what?

 

[Ghada]

Just about every word you spoke was against the word of God

That of course remains to be seen by verses you give showing it.

By every word, do you include the verses I quote?

, in support of your gospel based upon works,

Already off to a bad start by stating something else I never said.

You see, when you desire to 'correct' someone's words, you need to actually correct their words. Trying to condemn your own words misstated from someone else's, is what they call in debate circles, falsifying the argument to rebut something else not argued.

It's easily spotted by judges and those, like me, who know what honest debating is.

It's the same for teaching Bible words. Right off I can tell you probably misstate Bible words too, in order to preach your own.

or/and, man's ability to perform works before being born again by the Spirit of God ~

You're first misstatement could be termed as 'possibly mistaking' my words for another of your own.

But here, you plainly say something having nothing to do with my words, and also make no sense.

Are you saying no man performs any works at all before being born again? What about wicked works? Unrighteous works of the flesh?

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled...

which is a another gospel, preached by the ministers of Satan,

True. The gospel you just spoke of was not Jesus' nor Pauls' nor mine.

Now if you want to dispute the words I preach from the verses I give, then you'll need to quote my words, just as we must quote Bible words to teach it accurately.

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.
You're welcome to start over and try again to respond to what I actually teach.

But the next time, please repeat my words distinctly, before supposing to respond to my words, and not that of another. In addition, you are also welcome to show if I am teaching something other than the words I use. That's also fine by me. However, at least have the same courtesy I have, and actually quote the person first.

I don't waste time arguing against what I never said, nor even shown to say it. In court of law, that's trying to prove a negative.