Regeneration and born again are not synonymous

[Dave]

So it wasn't really faith at all but the Holy Spirit upon them. Faith by definition is internal. Soon as the Holy Spirit departed so did their faith? There were times indeed, when the Holy Spirit was said to come upon certain people to equip them for special purposes, such as in designing and building the things of the temple. Skills iow. And there were times when the Holy Spirit came upon a person or group of people for a time to do a particular thing. Never is it said to come upon anyone FOR faith that saves. Faith that saves is an internal work of God on the very position of a person, the condition of their heart. That internal work of God is regeneration/new birth. (P.S. Not even the dispensationlist MacArthur who you have often quoted and posted his videos, holds the view of regeneration and born again as you do, but the same one that has been presented here by the Reformed.) I figured that is where you were getting all this from so I checked. Along with this new birth/regeneration comes faith and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Please address what I have said here without simply repeating your position. Address my words!

Yes, I know I'm at odds with the consensus. Macarthur traditionally doesn't believe what I'm saying. In a few recent youtube videos, I noticed that he's become careful in how he words it now. That tells me he's allowing for the possibility, but not convinced. I could be wrong, but he doesn't outwardly say that a man must be born again to come to faith. But he will say that it's God who brings a person to faith.

Everything that you said above is built off of the assumption that I put in bold from your quote.

What I don't remember is anytime in the OT where it said that the OT saints were partially regenerated but were not born again. There is a reason why it never used either expression, regenerated or born again, in the OT. Because it would have made no sense at the time to the people who were receiving the Law and Prophets. The Prophets on another occasion did allude to it as pertaining to Messiah when it speaks of God putting a new heart in his people. It looks back specifically on the fall and our enmity with God, our inability to be any other way than the way we are, and looks forward to God himself recreating us, as it were, (a new creation in Christ). The fact that it never mentions directly a regeneration or a new birth does not warrant a leap to the conclusion than no one in the OT was reborn, and reborn in Christ.

We went over this stuff already. Keep in mind, I use the term primate regeneration, but my meaning is that it's from God. To put it in your language. I don't mean to suggest that a person is partially born again.

Look at the passage that Carbon quoted. Is this born again? I believe it was offered as proof for that exact thing. You offered like passages from the same book. Maybe the exact same one. It's a future promise. As I told Carbon, I believe that it was fulfilled at Pentecost.

Ezekiel 36.
26 Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put My Spirit within you and bring it about that you walk in My statutes, and are careful and follow My ordinances.

John 16: 12-14 I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.[/B]

Remember this: The Covenant of Redemption was between Father, Son, and Holy Spirit BEFORE creation.[/B]

The temporal argument is an atheists argument. It has no weight in overturning anything time sensitive in the Bible. [/B]

As to the curtain being torn down. That is of course an allusion to the curtain that separated the Holy Place from the most Holy Place. A place where the people could not go, The representative of the very throne of God---going directly to him. Only the High Priest could go there, and only once a year, to perform the sacrifices commanded to cover the sins of the people. That splitting open of the curtain when Jesus died, was representative of both the wall between Jew and Gentile being torn down, and even more, of opening personal access to all who have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus to come boldly before his throne of grace to receive grace and mercy, in our time of need. (Which is always.) It had nothing to do directly with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.[/B]

1 Corinthians 6: Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

John 7:39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.[/B]

 

[Carbon]

I was pondering this last night. I don't know if it adds up to anything. But I asked the question, if being born again and justified is a one time act, and it happens as a result of faith, how does God draw a person and bring them to faith?

Well, I hope you come to the conclusion that it is a one-time act.

Jesus, the Holy Spirit, and the Word, are all called the truth. The truth sets us free. Jesus and the Holy Spirit literally set us free "in Him", but the Word also sets us free, I believe, in type. The Law, the Word, is still the Holy Spirit, Just as Jesus and the Word are the same. Faith comes by hearing the Word of God. That may be more profound than we think.

The preaching of the gospel can not of itself produce faith in the person hearing it, and this is not due to any deficiency in the gospel. If this were to work, the person must have a state of mind that is capable of faith. The dead lost sinner does not have that state of mind, as scripture teaches. Scripture teaches that the natural man is blind to the things of the Spirit, and the heart is at enmity with God. Yes, it's more profound than we think.

Jesus said, in John 17:17, that the Word is Truth, sanctify them by thy truth. these were believers, but not yet indwelt with the Holy spirit.

And what gives you that indication? Dave, are you making things up as you go along?

Not born again. That prayer may have been speaking of the immediate future, like Pentecost. But is got me to think. What if the process of sanctification begins before a person is born again. What is the process of sanctification brings us to faith and takes us to being born again, and continues on until we're finished being Christlike.

Huh? Until we are finished being Christlike?

How could this happen? The Word of God, acting as a OT type of the actual, somehow can draw a person to Christ. Somehow, the Word, which is the Holy Spirit, acts as a primitive sanctification bringing a person to faith. It's still from God. Jesus is still the Author and finisher of the Holy Spirit. It's got nothing to do with mans ability.

This would would explain the Parable of the soils. This would explain Hebrews 6, those being a partaker with the Holy Spirit, but still could be lost. This would explain Jesus saying "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you," in John 15 (OT).

Wow, Dave, you're really on a roll. Pull back the reins, stop, relax. Are you interested in going over these passages, slowly to see what they're actually teaching?

Could we begin to be sanctified by God's Word before we come to faith and are born again? Does God's Word, in "type" offer us something that allows us to overcome that our flesh could not overcome? In other words, the Holy spirit works in "type" in a person by them hearing the Word.

Scripture plainly teaches how God works in salvation.

Just something that I've been kicking around recently. No need to reply

 

[Dave]

If you are going to speculate like that and present it as truth, perhaps you should ask Elijah and Moses whether they were born again. Matt 17:1-3 And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and JOhn his broghter, and led them up on a high mountain by themselves. And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light, And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.

By what were they born again?

Where did they get that faith from and what was that faith in?

They got their faith from God, but not from being born again. Born again is the result of faith, not the cause. Their faith was that God would provide for them. Their faith was limited to the OT message. This is why Jesus, before He ascended, first descended, and preached to the Spirits in prison.

Where in the OT did God promise OT believers that they would receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

See post #261

This:

Has absolutely no correlation to this as you indicated it to be proof of:

It's proof that if you'r not indwelt with the holy Spirit, you are not "in Christ".

This was given in response to my question if there was a type of regeneration that was not a full regeneration, and given as proof that there is. This scripture does not pertain to OT saints or even regeneration---at all---so how can it prove your statement? Jesus is speaking with his disciples just prior to his death, and letting them know that the Holy Spirit would give them the spiritual truths that they needed, and understanding of them. And that they can trust the Holy Spirit. He is saying that the Holy Spirit can be trusted just as surely as Jesus himself is, to teach only truth. They will learn things that it was impossible for them to know and understand until after his crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension. He will give them this understanding so they can lay the foundation of his church. And that foundation, and those teachings, are what we have in Acts and the epistles. Address my words, please. Don't treat them as though they were never said.

And all that understanding you listed is the result of receiving the indwelling of the Holy spirit.

 

[Dave]

Because of his new birth by the sovereign will of the Holy Spirit (Jn 3:3-8).

logically: sovereign new birth --> gift of faith --> salvation (Eph 2:8-9)

Sorry Eleanor, but that's speculation. You're assuming a whole lot and defining the whole Bible based on a stretched (and that's being kind) interpretation of John 3:3. Can you give me another passage besides the silver bullet?

Remember, the OT ended and the NT began at the cross, Not at John Chapter one. in John that would be chapter 19, I believe. Ephesians is NT indwelt believers, there fore they have the promises.

 

[Carbon]

@Dave

I believe scripture teaches it is impossible that the external call by itself should produce faith in the heart of the natural man. The natural man cannot exercise saving faith since he cannot see the kingdom of God and its treasures.

And how does the natural man see the kingdom of God, by being born again/regenerated, as Jesus teaches in John 3:3.

Man must receive faith as a gift of God. This faith is not communicated to man as if he is being built up in a particular mechanical way until he is finally able. The Holy Spirit, by regeneration, creates in man a capacity for believing the gospel message.

 

[Carbon]

Sorry Eleanor, but that's speculation. You're assuming a whole lot and defining the whole Bible based on a stretched (and that's being kind) interpretation of John 3:3. Can you give me another passage besides the silver bullet?

Remember, the OT ended and the NT began at the cross, Not at John Chapter one. in John that would be chapter 19, I believe. Ephesians is NT indwelt believers, there fore they have the promises.

With all due respect, Dave, I believe @Eleanor is serving you some biblically solid food that you're having a hard time chewing. Maybe you should consider what she is saying. Think about it for a while.

 

[makesends]

And all that understanding you listed is the result of receiving the indwelling of the Holy spirit.

—Which, "receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit", is not by choice of man, but by pure grace of God. It is not offered as a gift to be reached for, but as a gift given before we are even consulted. For us to believe, is the work of God, not of us.

 

[Carbon]

—Which, "receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit", is not by choice of man, but by pure grace of God. It is not offered as a gift to be reached for, but as a gift given before we are even consulted. For us to believe, is the work of God, not of us.

Amen brother!

 

[Eleanor]

Sorry Eleanor, but that's speculation. You're assuming a whole lot and defining the whole Bible based on a stretched (and that's being kind) interpretation of John 3:3. Can you give me another passage besides the silver bullet?

Remember, the OT ended and the NT began at the cross, Not at John Chapter one. in John that would be chapter 19, I believe. Ephesians is NT indwelt believers, there fore they have the promises.

Translate: I don't believe Jn 3:3.

If you don't believe the plain word of God in Jn 3:3, we have no basis for discussion.

It likewise falls to you to Biblically demonstrate my "stretched interpretation" of Jn 3:3.

 

[Arial]

By what were they born again?

Unrelated to post quoted. Ad hoc fallacy. Respond to posts please.

They got their faith from God, but not from being born again. Born again is the result of faith, not the cause. Their faith was that God would provide for them. Their faith was limited to the OT message. This is why Jesus, before He ascended, first descended, and preached to the Spirits in prison.

You will need to give a biblical explanation for such a statement. That means, not conjecture and speculation. Something to bring back into the reading and correctly handling the word of God is that God is Triune. There was never a time when he was not. He was in the OT the Prophets and Moses spoke of him. He often appeared as a theophany. He has always been the Savior. Just because something was not fully revealed int the OT that is in the NT after the incarnation, does not mean it only became a reality in the NT.

See post #261

Now show me where any of those scriptures in 261 say that God promised the OT saints they would some day be indwelt by the Holy Spirit and that that is the promise they were waiting for. Would you like me to give an exegesis of those scriptures and show you what they are really saying?

It's proof that if you'r not indwelt with the holy Spirit, you are not "in Christ".

No one here disagrees with that. But that is not the point. It doesn't prove that the OT saints were NOT indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Which is what you claim.

And all that understanding you listed is the result of receiving the indwelling of the Holy spirit.

Of course it is. What does that have to do with your claim that the OT saints were NOT indwelt by the Holy Spirit?

 

[Arial]

Everything that you said above is built off of the assumption that I put in bold from your quote.

It isn't an assumption Dave. It is what the Bible says and it has been shown to you by everyone posting in this thread. You on the the other hand have only supported what you say by speculation and conjecture on the meaning of certain scriptures. They too have been shown to not mean at all what you claim. You say things like, a primitive regeneration. Which is nowhere found int either testament. And "That's why the OT saints are being held in Hades waiting for the new birth." Neither testament says any such thing. You speculate but say with conviction where Jesus went for three days while his body was in the grave and what he did. The Bible is not explicit on either of those things. There are a couple of verses that people use as the foundation for saying their speculations are true. You say regeneration and born again are not the same thing but cannot define what regeneration is. You say born again is never mentioned in the OT. If memory serves. neither is regeneration. You say the promise the OT saints were waiting for that they had not received, was the new birth. Yet, it has been shown that the promise they were waiting for was the coming of the Messiah and the ultimate new heaven and new earth.

We went over this stuff already. Keep in mind, I use the term primate regeneration, but my meaning is that it's from God. To put it in your language. I don't mean to suggest that a person is partially born again.

I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here and assume you meant primitive. And yes, you have gone over, and over it, and still not answered the question. Where does the Bible say any such thing? Neither have you said what primitive regeneration is. And it is saying they are partially born again because theologically, regeneration is born again. You have not shown that it isn't. You have only speculated about it and reduced the ability of God to rebirth a person to what we see at Pentecost.

Look at the passage that Carbon quoted. Is this born again? I believe it was offered as proof for that exact thing. You offered like passages from the same book. Maybe the exact same one. It's a future promise. As I told Carbon, I believe that it was fulfilled at Pentecost.

It was future when it was spoken, but it was speaking of a particular event that did not pertain to only Israel but the world. It did happen as the inauguration of the New Covenant. With its sign. That does not mean that OT saints were able to have faith some other way. A way other than the Father giving it to them. The natural man, whether in the OT or the new, without being changed from that condition (new heart, regenerated, spiritually reborn from above, out of Adam and into Christ) is at enmity with God. The opposite of faith.

The temporal argument is an atheists argument. It has no weight in overturning anything time sensitive in the Bible.

What does that have to do with what I said or anything else?

1 Corinthians 6: Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own?

John 7:39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.

John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever- the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.[/B]

Please address the content of my post instead of presenting random scriptures.

 

[Josheb]

Born again is the result of being placed in Christ (the Spiritual Church), which is the result of receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is called the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which is the result of faith.

None of that is correct.

The errors should be obvious once the fact many people were indwelt with the HS and not born again and many were born again and not baptized in the Spirit. Those two erros and many others were already addressed in previous posts. Why then are the same mistakes being made again (and again and again)?

Each step has been proven with Scripture.

No, each step has been argued using an eisegetic misuse of scripture. Eisegesis never proves anything. Ever. This too has been covered and covered in multiple ways (for example: it is completely inappropriate to apply scripture written about the already regenerate to the unregenerate and apply covenant conditions to outsiders).

Also proven with Scripture is that OT believers were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, yet they believed.

And...... according to posts supporting this op, belief instigates new birth.......

That's proof that a man doesn't need to be born again to believe. He needs to believe to be born again.

Which is it? The OT saint believed but wasn't born again...... he needed to believe to be born again.

?????​

He needed to believe to be born again and believed but was not born again.

What do I call the act of God that brings a person to faith, I don't know.

Would you like to know?

 

[Carbon]

None of that is correct.

The errors should be obvious once the fact many people were indwelt with the HS and not born again and many were born again and not baptized in the Spirit. Those two erros and many others were already addressed in previous posts. Why then are the same mistakes being made again (and again and again)?

No, each step has been argued using an eisegetic misuse of scripture. Eisegesis never proves anything. Ever. This too has been covered and covered in multiple ways (for example: it is completely inappropriate to apply scripture written about the already regenerate to the unregenerate and apply covenant conditions to outsiders).

And...... according to posts supporting this op, belief instigates new birth.......

Which is it? The OT saint believed but wasn't born again...... he needed to believe to be born again.

?????​

He needed to believe to be born again and believed but was not born again.

Would you like to know?

 

[makesends]

It was future when it was spoken, but it was speaking of a particular event that did not pertain to only Israel but the world. It did happen as the inauguration of the New Covenant. With its sign. That does not mean that OT saints were able to have faith some other way. A way other than the Father giving it to them. The natural man, whether in the OT or the new, without being changed from that condition (new heart, regenerated, spiritually reborn from above, out of Adam and into Christ) is at enmity with God. The opposite of faith.

Thank you for this. It helps me, (somewhat), to understand the differences of our expressions of how OT saints were saved. Regenerated, quite independent of temporal placement. We agree.

 

[Arial]

It's simple. Born again is the result of being placed in Christ (the Spiritual Church), which is the result of receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which is called the baptism with the Holy Spirit, which is the result of faith. Each step has been proven with Scripture. Also proven with Scripture is that OT believers were not indwelt with the Holy Spirit, yet they believed. That's proof that a man doesn't need to be born again to believe. He needs to believe to be born again. What do I call the act of God that brings a person to faith, I don't know. I know people want a place for it in their system, but I car not for their system. I only care that it's the word of God. If that leaves questions to be answered, then so be it. I do know that it's from God, and it's not born again. God draws. He sanctifies through His Word, which I will get into more later. I keep answering, but you guys aren't hearing.

When you stop trying to pull that horse with the cart, then you will see that all along everyone has been showing you the horse pulling the cart. There is no need to stubbornly cling to foolishness or in doing the same thing over and over the same way and expecting different results.

We are hearing just fine. Throw away all your speculative and preconceived notions of what words mean, all your presuppositions and study the word, all by itself. ANd btw, the baptism of the Holy Spirit is not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is the baptism. The indwelling is the indwelling. What we see at Pentecost is the evidence made visible to all for a specific purpose.

Try setting aside your definitions for ten minutes and go back and read the ones I gave that you are still ignoring. Then start over as if the definitions I gave are correct. Because they are. You do not ever even give any.

How can a person be baptized into Jesus' death and raised up with Him (born again) without being placed "in Him", the Spirit baptism?

Since baptism means immersion, and metaphorically, to be overwhelmed; and because in water baptism symbolic of being buried with Christ and raised to life in him; and since it is also symbolic of cleansing, the baptism of the Holy Spirit would be more akin to, and maybe the same as, being born again by the Spirit. What we see at Pentecost, and what you are calling the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the point where we are placed in him, is the visible manifestation of the New Covenant is. It was for covenant purposes. The message: now not only a few are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, but all the elect are. (Only the elect are born again given faith, and united with Christ.) Israel was the people of God. In this since the nation was elect. But not elect unto salvation. Elect as the people of God. (The old covenant was not dealing with sin. Only Christ and the new covenant does that. And all those OT saints were elect unto salvation, just as those today are.) Now, it says at Pentecost, the elect are everywhere, from every tongue and tribe and walk of life and nation. Now, it says, the words of Jeremiah concerning the new heart has come to pass, for all of God's people, the elect.