Imputed Righteousness or Imparted Righteousness, what did the Thief on the Cross get?

[Carbon]

Hi Carbon

Lets try this a different way.

What would it mean if our sin was infused into Christ instead of of imputed?

Just put that in the other direction. Are we talking about the fruit of the Spirit, or the fruit of Carbon?

Well if it was my fruit, I wouldn't need the Spirit to infuse grace. Again, it seems you are teaching the Imputation of Christ's righteousness took care of sanctification for life until glorification. Is this what you are saying?

 

[Carbon]

Never under estimate the power of redefining words. The Catholic church loves when the terminology used means different things to different people. We see this in politics all the time. The chameleon. They will wear the mask that suits them depending on who they are standing in front of. They are always doing things and claiming that they are not really doing them. And saying things, and claiming that they are not really saying them. Then they claim that you just don't understand.

Dave, Dave, the Catholic Church uses the word Trinity. Should we be afraid to use that word? Should we throw it out?

 

[Carbon]

I know for a fact with regards to the term "imparted righteousness", even though the definition of that term is different from Catholics to protestants, but now because we use that same terminology that has been used by the Catholic church for a long time to describe a works based theology, that there will be Catholic priests who tell there congregations 'see, all these years protestants argued with us and now they believe the same things that we've been telling you all these years. All that Bible studying that they do, and all they needed to do was listen to the Catholic church to begin with.' This is what they do.

Well Dave, good for them. Really. They can twist what they will it does not change the truth.

 

[Carbon]

One must ask, where were we lacking in understanding that we needed new terminology? And that terminology just so happened to be the same terminology that the Catholic church used to teach a works based salvation. Can't you see that?

What does the term 'imparted righteous' describe that wasn't already described by the term 'sanctification'?

Continued...

Dave, that is not new terminology. Do a little study there.

 

[Dave]

I rewrote my last post. Sorry it sounded so scatter brained.

Dave

 

[Carbon]

I rewrote my last post. Sorry it sounded so scatter brained.

Dave

Usually, I discuss or debate sanctification with people who believe it is a synergistic process. Which I disagree with. But please, correct me if I am wrong, you seem beyond monergistic, as in God did it, and it's over, and there is nothing left to be done.

 

[Carbon]

Carbon

This is going to sound redundant. When we are placed into Christ, we are complete in Him and lacking nothing according to Colossians 2:10-14, and other places. At that point positional sanctification is settled. It's a one time act, that we receive what Jesus did for us. What He did for us legally is everything, because we could do nothing to merit anything but judgment. That's positional sanctification.

At that point, to quote Macarthur, we then begin the process of being conformed to what God already reckons us to be in Christ legally. Remember, we are complete in Him and lacking nothing. Being filled with the Holy Spirit simply means to be more under His control, not receiving more of Him. Yielding everything to Him, for Him to work His goodness through us. And that's it, it's His goodness, not ours. It's not us that produces good, it's God. Only God is good. This term "infused grace strongly, and I emphasize, strongly, suggests that the goodness is coming from us. That God just makes it possible for goodness to come from our flesh. Some people are falling for this because, as we have all seen in the past, there are those who will do anything to inject mans ability in the flesh to produce good. Whether God helped him or not.

I'm telling you, there is absolutely no reason for the term "infused grace", or "imparted grace" unless someone is trying to back door a works based salvation. I've seen this tried many different ways and it never stops. Nothing new under the sun. They just keep trying.

I still have not heard an answer as to why we need the term "imparted grace", or "infused grace". Isn't that what we call the filling? If these new terms are just practical sanctification, then why not use the term practical sanctification?

Only God is good. Not one person here can do one good work unless it came from God Himself.

Dave

Dave, I have to slow down and re-read what you wrote about sanctification. I believe I missed some points where if I had taken my time, I might have agreed.

 

[EarlyActs]

Isn't this passage speaking of positional sanctification?

The question at hand comes down to this. Does God enable our flesh to be good in and of itself, or is it God who is good through us?

The filling suggests that it is the latter. If it were possible, if God would take His Spirit from us, there would be no good left in us, only the flesh which can only produce sin. This idea of infused grace seems to suggest that God's infused grace is a goodness booster shot that allows our flesh to be good. That's what it sounds like. Jesus said that without Him we can do nothing.



This is pointing to the Promise of the Father, the NT indwelling. My "What happened in Acts?" thread that was moved out of the Acts forum. I'm not sure where it's at now.

Isn't what you are calling infused grace what we call being filled with the Holy Spirit?

Dave

I Cor 6 is a one-off use of the term sanctification when justification is meant. Like ‘purification’ or ‘perfect’ in Hebrews 9. It is used as a comparison.

Thus there is no such thing as positional sanctification, and using the term position in theology is ineffective jargon, unless you mean a statement about the debt aspect of past sin. That would be like a financial ‘position’ or what older English would call a ‘disposition.’

There does have to be a proof of some righteous living in a believer. It proves the other has been believed and received.

 

[mailmandan]

Romans 6:16,19 KJV
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? [19] I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.

That sounds more like sanctification

I'd rather go with this...

Romans 4:5 KJV
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

I see a contrast here between servants. There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense: servants of sin unto death or servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9) believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation, (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness."

Notice in Romans 10:10 - For with the heart one believes unto righteousness..

Notice in Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.

 

[Dave]

Well if it was my fruit, I wouldn't need the Spirit to infuse grace.

Carbon, if I'm understanding you correctly, basically, you're saying that 'infused grace' is the filling of the Spirit.

Usually, I discuss or debate sanctification with people who believe it is a synergistic process. Which I disagree with. But please, correct me if I am wrong, you seem beyond monergistic, as in God did it, and it's over, and there is nothing left to be done.

Bear with me...I believe that Jesus is the Author and Finisher of our faith. That's both positional (Author) and practical sanctification (Finisher). Only God is good. The Bible says that. Jesus said it. So, how does a bad tree (our flesh) produce good fruit? It's not us, it's God, the fruit of the Spirit, the Good Tree that bears good fruit. For what do we have that we did not receive. Jesus said, without Him, we can do nothing. There's no booster shot of infused grace that will make our flesh produce good works. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be what you're saying. At least that idea of the flesh producing good works is what I'm trying to guard against. It's usually the seed of a works based salvation encroaching. It may not be intended by you, but the terminology used seems to open a doorway for that error. I also wonder if somewhere up the ladder, that this was not intentional.

My point with the question about our sin being infused into Christ was that would be hostile to His nature to actually become our sin. It couldn't happen. The imputing of our sin to Him takes care of the legal liability of it, but it doesn't conflict with His nature, He just takes on the legal liability of it. In that same way, we wear His robe of righteousness, but still, I don't believe that our flesh can become good. That's why there is a war between our flesh and the Spirit. That's why Paul says that nothing good can come from the flesh (Romans 7:18). It's like a mirror image. Positionally speaking, Jesus takes on the legal liability for our sin, and we take on the benefits of His perfect obedience. Practically, He cannot become our sin, like we cannot become His righteousness in the flesh. It's all the fruit of the Spirit, the Good Tree.

Dave

 

[prism]

I see a contrast here between servants. There are only two kinds of servants in this world, in the spiritual sense: servants of sin unto death or servants of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation (Ephesians 2:8,9) believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation, (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness."

"When we place our faith exclusively in Jesus Christ for salvation"... I would stop here and say, 'the reason we came this far is because God has chosen from the beginning for good works.' Our faith and trust grow as we abide in His Word

Philippians 1:6 KJV
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ: