What end time view do you hold to?

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

View attachment 14

 

[Eleanor]

What is it with the reading comprehension of this group? Brother, I've already stated that currently Jesus is most definitely Lord and King ( if not here in this thread than elsewhere ) but He isn't currently "ruling and reigning" over the earth. Currently it's principalities and powers as the Scripture states...Until Jesus returns.

God placed all things under Christ's feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him (the church is the fullness of Christ, who counts himself incomplete without it). Eph 1:22

Now you could make the case that said principalities and powers are under the authority of God and you'd be right...but that just means God is allowing them power on earth until Christ returns. Something like Job.

And yes...I'm aware that Jesus is God. But...you know...Trinity. And all that stuff.

Anywho...you asked.

 

[Josheb]

Approx. a third of the world's population are professing Christians. This means that we are outnumbered by idolaters two to one, not to mention the fact that a very large number of these professing Christians will not be born again.

Point well taken and I will adjust my posts accordingly. However, there were a handful of Christians in the beginning and now a third of the world's population lay claim to the name of Christ. We might debate the veracity of the claim for many but in reference to the claim the world is getting worse, the population facts prove this incorrect. Anyone looking it up will find there has been a stall in growth. Numerical growth has stalled, but it has not decreased. It has remained static for just over a century.

I blame Dispensationalism for this, btw.

If the dominion/cultural mandate and great commission are commands God expects to be obeyed with some intent on His part to be manifest then this "stall" is temporary, not permanent. That does not mean a pristine state where literally everyone is Christian will ever exist (I am unaware of anyone who holds that position, doctrinally), simply that the world would be subdued and ruled by God's people and people from all nations will be baptized and taught Jesus' commands.


In 1968 the theologian Francis Schaeffer wrote a book titled, "The God Who is There." It was the first book in what is now a trilogy. This trilogy surveys philosophy and art to explain how postmodernism gained prominence worldwide when the prevailing worldview worldwide had been the Judeo-Christian mindset. He was writing predominantly about the western experience but in the 1960s the western mindset was prevalent and had effect even on Existentialism and Communism. He blamed the decline Christians were witnessing back then on the failure of Christians to speak up. proselytization is not enough. Schaeffer argued for Christians applying the Christian worldview in ALL areas of life, not just evangelism. Those of us who were alive at that time may remeber how much his writings shook up Dispensationalism in particular because prior to Schaeffer Dispensationalism taught separation; Christians were to separate themselves from society and not be involved in politics or social policy. Dispensationalism teaches the world will go to hell in a handbasket, the Church is corrupt and will become impotent, and Jesus will rescue the Church, not resurrect us. Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority is a direct result of Schaeffer's admonition and his exhortation for Christians to show up in the marketplace of ideas because we have THE answer to all of life's problems: Christ crucified and resurrected.


Postmodernism came and went.

We now live in a post-postmodern world, and Christianity has withstood it and held its ground. If the dominion/cultural mandate and great commission are commands God expects to be obeyed, then Christianity will continue and all the other competing worldviews will come and go.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

God placed all things under Christ's feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him (the church is the fullness of Christ, who counts himself incomplete without it). Eph 1:22

Also Ephesians
6
10 Finally, be strong in the Lord and in the might of His strength.11 Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.13 Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

 

[Josheb]

Or it means he was not able to prevail (destroy) because Christ rescued her first.

No, that is not a viable interpretation for the reasons I have already posted. Jesus did not say they would not be able to prevail; he said hell would not prevail, and the defenses of hell's gate would not prevail over the Church. There is NOTHING in that text remotely alluding to the Church failing and needing rescue.

Thanks, but actually, I don't really do dispensationalism, too much of it contradicts the NT.

That's good, but a lot of eschatological futurists are dispensationalist and don't realize it. A lot of self-described dispensationalists don't believe a lot of the doctrines the theology to which they say they subscribe. I was converted to Christ in a Dispensationalist congregation and spent years believing what was taught was the only view taught in Christianity. I was, in fact, dispensationalist even before I became a Christian because I'd read Hal Lindsay and incorrectly thought that's what all Christendom believed.

I was wrong.

 

[Josheb]

I recognized what you meant, and don't think you actually conflate the Elect with the larger group called Christian.

But I feel like I should nevertheless mention, that one of the constant themes I've encountered in my 67 years among Christians and in Christian teaching, is that the "Children of Israel" are a kind of picture of the so-called 'church', not made entirely of the Elect. In my book, that is not "WE", if the survivors of Israel after slaughter have any parallel to the current numbers of so-called Christians, maybe 10% max. makes a pretty good guess as to how many are true believers, aka, Redeemed and Saved. The Elect.

The classic Reformed position is that the Church is grafted into an already existing tree that is Christ (not Israel) and the OT saints find their perfection in the Church (Heb. 11:40). The seed promised Abraham is Christ and Christ alone.

 

[Eleanor]

Gates were also where judgements were handed down. The proclamation of Messiah defeats the judgement of death. Just a point you might want to consider.

The church has the distinct honor to be the means of the proclamation of the Gospel. It does not and cannot save a single soul. It assaults no walls. It merely stands on the truth.

The church has the distinct honor of being the fullness of Christ, who counts himself incomplete without it (Eph 1:22).

 

[Josheb]

What is it with the reading comprehension of this group? Brother, I've already stated that currently Jesus is most definitely Lord and King ( if not here in this thread than elsewhere ) but He isn't currently "ruling and reigning" over the earth. Currently it's principalities and powers as the Scripture states...Until Jesus returns.

Now you could make the case that said principalities and powers are under the authority of God and you'd be right...but that just means God is allowing them power on earth until Christ returns. Something like Job.

And yes...I'm aware that Jesus is God. But...you know...Trinity. And all that stuff.

Anywho...you asked.

That does not answer my question. The "reading comprehension" of the group is irrelevant, and in light of the failure to answer the question it would appear the red herring is self-indicting. I did not say or imply the prior affirmation of Christ's sovereignty and rule was wrong or in any way deny that affirmation.

I asked if some provision of evidence of Dispensationalism's teaching on the matter was wanted. I also asked for scripture support for gates being references to judgment.

What is it with the reading comprehension of this group?

You obviously have never seen the inside of a gate.

Thank you for your time.

When I read posts that keep the posts about the posts and not the posters, and don't insinuate derision on others, I'll reconsider but until then I won't be trading posts with you further in this op because those comments are trolling.

 

[Eleanor]

The classic Reformed position is that the Church is grafted into an already existing tree that is Christ (not Israel) and the OT saints find their perfection in the Church (Heb. 11:40). The seed promised Abraham is Christ and Christ alone.

Good for you!

And to enlarge on that grafting:

The trunk of the one olive tree is Christ (as he is the vine), its branches are the people of God, its roots are the firstfruits, the holy patriarchs of the OT (Ro 11:16-17), making it the one people of God, of both OT and NT saints (Heb 11:40, 12;22-23), the church, going all the way back to Abraham, and into which it is the destiny of Israel to be grafted back, if (not "when) they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23).

Ro 11:23 is unassailable: "if (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted back in again."

Grafted back into what? The one olive tree.

What is the one olive tree?
The dough made from the firstfruits of the harvest, wherein part of the dough was offered to the Lord, consecrating the whole batch of dough and making it holy (Ro 11:16).

What is the batch of dough?
The one olive tree--the people of God (branches), where its firstfruits are the holy patriarchs who, like the batch of dough from the firstfruits of the harvest was holy--is likewise holy because its roots (the patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) are holy (Ro 11:16), and from which roots its trunk, Christ, proceeds.

So what has been broken off the one olive tree and what has been grafted in to the one olive tree, which is the people of God whose roots are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?
Unbelieving Jews have been cut off from the people of God, and believing Gentiles (church) have been grafted in to the people of God.
So now, since the death of Christ, the one olive tree of God's people is all who believe in Christ; i.e., the church, going all the way back to Abraham.

So the shemata of the holy one olive tree presented in Ro 11 is the
holy root = patriarchs,
[holy trunk = Christ, which proceeds from the root] and
holy branches = people of God in the trunk, Christ, as they are in the vine, Christ.

Therefore, it is God's people in the NT which are the one olive tree going all the way back to Abraham, the church, of both OT and NT saints (Heb 11:40, 2:2-23), into which Israel will be grafted back if (not "when") they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23).

 

[makesends]

Gads! I had it at 20%.

But then I've had it there for years, may be time to adjust it.

Well, there is the encouraging statement that there will be enough that no man can count them.

 

[David1701]

Point well taken and I will adjust my posts accordingly. However, there were a handful of Christians in the beginning and now a third of the world's population lay claim to the name of Christ. We might debate the veracity of the claim for many but in reference to the claim the world is getting worse, the population facts prove this incorrect. Anyone looking it up will find there has been a stall in growth. Numerical growth has stalled, but it has not decreased. It has remained static for just over a century.

I blame Dispensationalism for this, btw.

I disagree with Dispensationalism as well, but I'm unsure about blaming Dispensationalists for stalled growth in Christian numbers. Many of them are keen on evangelism, including the Plymouth Brethren.

If the dominion/cultural mandate and great commission are commands God expects to be obeyed with some intent on His part to be manifest then this "stall" is temporary, not permanent. That does not mean a pristine state where literally everyone is Christian will ever exist (I am unaware of anyone who holds that position, doctrinally), simply that the world would be subdued and ruled by God's people and people from all nations will be baptized and taught Jesus' commands.

Well, I would love that to be true, but is it not true that both kingdoms continue to grow until the harvest?

In 1968 the theologian Francis Schaeffer wrote a book titled, "The God Who is There." It was the first book in what is now a trilogy. This trilogy surveys philosophy and art to explain how postmodernism gained prominence worldwide when the prevailing worldview worldwide had been the Judeo-Christian mindset. He was writing predominantly about the western experience but in the 1960s the western mindset was prevalent and had effect even on Existentialism and Communism. He blamed the decline Christians were witnessing back then on the failure of Christians to speak up. proselytization is not enough. Schaeffer argued for Christians applying the Christian worldview in ALL areas of life, not just evangelism. Those of us who were alive at that time may remeber how much his writings shook up Dispensationalism in particular because prior to Schaeffer Dispensationalism taught separation; Christians were to separate themselves from society and not be involved in politics or social policy. Dispensationalism teaches the world will go to hell in a handbasket, the Church is corrupt and will become impotent, and Jesus will rescue the Church, not resurrect us. Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority is a direct result of Schaeffer's admonition and his exhortation for Christians to show up in the marketplace of ideas because we have THE answer to all of life's problems: Christ crucified and resurrected.

That's interesting, because I thought the same thing as you are saying that Schaeffer said (this was soon after I was saved, in the mid-late 1980s). The situation in Britain was much better then than now, but I thought that it was going to get worse steadily, unless Christians stood up against the advance of things like abortion and homosexual "rights".

Postmodernism came and went.



We now live in a post-postmodern world, and Christianity has withstood it and held its ground. If the dominion/cultural mandate and great commission are commands God expects to be obeyed, then Christianity will continue and all the other competing worldviews will come and go.

It may be true that, in some places, Christianity has stood strongly for the gospel and against the advancing evil, but certainly not in Britain. It's possible that my outlook is too coloured by what I see happening here.

 

[Eleanor]

I disagree with Dispensationalism as well, but I'm unsure about blaming Dispensationalists for stalled growth in Christian numbers. Many of them are keen on evangelism, including the Plymouth Brethren.
Well, I would love that to be true, but is it not true that both kingdoms continue to grow until the harvest?
That's interesting, because I thought the same thing as you are saying that Schaeffer said (this was soon after I was saved, in the mid-late 1980s). The situation in Britain was much better then than now, but I thought that it was going to get worse steadily, unless Christians stood up against the advance of things like abortion and homosexual "rights".
It may be true that, in some places, Christianity has stood strongly for the gospel and against the advancing evil, but certainly not in Britain. It's possible that my outlook is too coloured by what I see happening here.

Or it may be the beginning of the real end.

 

[makesends]

I disagree with Dispensationalism as well, but I'm unsure about blaming Dispensationalists for stalled growth in Christian numbers. Many of them are keen on evangelism, including the Plymouth Brethren.

I don't see that numbers are relevant to the question. Inflation doesn't sustain value. Value goes on being what it always is. If there are relatively more 'converts', in the end it means nothing except, perhaps, the spread of the Gospel.

Dispensationalism is perhaps at the root of current false numbers. I see Wesleyanism, and all sorts of arminianistic errors in dispensationalism. I would not have myself said that dispensationalism IS THE ROOT —I would have said that Arminianism, or Self-determinism, is. But it doesn't matter. They are all of a kind. It is a rare thing to find a Calvinist Dispensationalist, but when I do, I notice they do not come across to me as vehement about that particular eschatology. Eschatology is maybe the least important branch of theology to the Reformed or Calvinist.

The Dispensationalists I am most familiar with, usually seem close to the edge of screaming, "Heresy!", with anyone who teaches post trib or amil or anything but what that dispensationalist takes as of ultimate importance in one's Christian life —understanding the mode of the departure from this life, I suppose, or even merely understanding the sequence of events of the last days.

 

[makesends]

Or it may be the beginning of the real end.

Or so CS Lewis seemed to think, lol.

I wonder what he would have thought, were he born and raised in the USA, or Germany, or wherever but Britain.

 

[Eleanor]

Or so CS Lewis seemed to think, lol.

I wonder what he would have thought, were he born and raised in the USA, or Germany, or wherever but Britain.

I dunno', I'v forgotten more than I remember of him.

 

[Josheb]

I disagree with Dispensationalism as well, but I'm unsure about blaming Dispensationalists for stalled growth in Christian numbers. Many of them are keen on evangelism, including the Plymouth Brethren.

Yes, they are very big on evangelism but they did not get involved in culture and the contradictions within Dispensationalism have caused many to leave the faith. Russel's atheist apologetic was informed by Dispensationalism. Had he read Reformed povs some of his book wouldn't have been written the way it was. For two centuries they have had a series of profiteering false prognosticators and have done nothing about it. Nothing. No accountability whatsoever. Observers inside and outside the faith observe all of it and say no.

Well, I would love that to be true, but is it not true that both kingdoms continue to grow until the harvest?

Yep. In fact, I was just reading about that very point. I think it was in George Eldon Ladd's "Commentary of Revelation."

Do they grow at the same rate? Satan has been defeated, so how many weeds can/does he now so? Interesting questions for those of us who come from the perspective the elect were decided from eternity without regard to their merit (but that's a topic for another thread ).

That's interesting, because I thought the same thing as you are saying that Schaeffer said (this was soon after I was saved, in the mid-late 1980s). The situation in Britain was much better then than now, but I thought that it was going to get worse steadily, unless Christians stood up against the advance of things like abortion and homosexual "rights".

Yep. But it isn't simply responses to individual policies; it's a pervasive worldview that addresses all of life. This distinction between isolated policy application of the gospel versus an encompassing mindset may be a sort of "ground zero" for Christians here in the US. I liken it to a recent conservative talk radio broadcast in which the host asked his listeners to call in an offer their opinions on what to do with the panhandlers that beg at intersections from the medians between traffic. In the US conservativism is a set of principles that can be applied to all circumstances, not a set of individually held policies. The host was contradicting his own claim of conservativism by asking what should be done because - from a conservative pov - the answer is singular and uniform: enforce the existing laws! He was asking if new laws should be legislated, more police stationed at intersection, and other ideas that directly contradict the US conservative beliefs in small government and the rule of law.

Christians need to apply the gospel that way; a pervasive manner and not just in individual, isolated, situations (but that, too, is a topic for another thread ).

It may be true that, in some places, Christianity has stood strongly for the gospel and against the advancing evil, but certainly not in Britain. It's possible that my outlook is too coloured by what I see happening here.

Africa and Asia put Britain and the US to shame.



Back to the op: I subscribe to a hybrid post-mil position whereby the gospel grows making the dominion/cultural mandate and great commission commands fulfilled, but not necessarily requiring a Christian state or a perfect world. As you just observed, the weeds grow among the wheat until the harvest.

 

[David1701]

Or it may be the beginning of the real end.

Yes, that's possible too.

 

[David1701]

I don't see that numbers are relevant to the question. Inflation doesn't sustain value. Value goes on being what it always is. If there are relatively more 'converts', in the end it means nothing except, perhaps, the spread of the Gospel.

Dispensationalism is perhaps at the root of current false numbers. I see Wesleyanism, and all sorts of arminianistic errors in dispensationalism. I would not have myself said that dispensationalism IS THE ROOT —I would have said that Arminianism, or Self-determinism, is. But it doesn't matter. They are all of a kind. It is a rare thing to find a Calvinist Dispensationalist, but when I do, I notice they do not come across to me as vehement about that particular eschatology. Eschatology is maybe the least important branch of theology to the Reformed or Calvinist.

The Dispensationalists I am most familiar with, usually seem close to the edge of screaming, "Heresy!", with anyone who teaches post trib or amil or anything but what that dispensationalist takes as of ultimate importance in one's Christian life —understanding the mode of the departure from this life, I suppose, or even merely understanding the sequence of events of the last days.

I have found that Dispensationalists tend to focus on end-times speculation far more than anyone else, sometimes to the point of obsession.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

I have found that Dispensationalists tend to focus on end-times speculation far more than anyone else, sometimes to the point of obsession.

This is because Dispensational theology primarily concerns itself with Ecclesiology and Eschatology. These two are it's distinguishing characteristics and what are discussed the most. It's Soteriology and other "ologies" are "reformed". In other words outside these particulars it is the same as all other protestant churches with their positive and negative aspects.

 

[David1701]

This is because Dispensational theology primarily concerns itself with Ecclesiology and Eschatology. These two are it's distinguishing characteristics and what are discussed the most. It's Soteriology and other "ologies" are "reformed". In other words outside these particulars it is the same as all other protestant churches with their positive and negative aspects.

the soteriology of the Dispies I've met was almost entirely semi-Pelagianish, with the occasional Arminian.