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Romans 11:26a.... And so all Israel will be saved.

Paul is interpreting a prophecy here by what he has just said. He is saying Jer 31 does not apply to Jews only.
Interesting, that it's not what Jer 31 says...

Jeremiah 31:31 KJV
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Is the church the house of Israel or the house of Judah?
The Bible hermeneutic is that the New Testament reveals and interprets what was not revealed in the Old Testament. We can understand its full meaning because we know the whole story, beginning, middle, and end.
This should not mean that the Old Testament prophecies given to Israel are null and void, as an example, how did Jesus fulfill...

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: [36] If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. [37] Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

If the Church (physical and spiritual Israel) has replaced Israel, then this promise is not true.
If you want to go into the immediate application of Jer 31 to the original audience, we can.
Fine, but with this caveat. No one present today was part of the original audience. Therefore, are any promises for us today?
 
Interesting, that it's not what Jer 31 says...

Jeremiah 31:31 KJV
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Is the church the house of Israel or the house of Judah?
In its immediate application to the first audience, this could be applied to the renewal of the covenant that was broken and resulted in the residents of Judah, including Jeremiah, being taken into captivity in Babylon. In Daniel we see Daniel referring to the prophecy of Jeremiah that promised a restoration and return after seventy years. Prophecy in the OT often has more than one fulfillment, some partial, until the final fulfillment. So we have to look at the things the New Testament says about the same prophecy to find that. I showed you where Paul did just that. OT prophecy is not read literalisticly and is read uniquely to other forms of writing. It is not historical narrative of future events. There is a whole key to interpreting OT prophecy, but I am not going to be your teacher on the matter, as my qualifications to do so are limited. It is something every serious Bible student should learn. Otherwise assumptions will be made, misinterpretations presented as correct, and in the case of making them exclusively about the geo/political/ethnic, divide peoples and redemption. Which the NT clearly does not do.
This should not mean that the Old Testament prophecies given to Israel are null and void,
It doesn't. That is a false equivalency.
as an example, how did Jesus fulfill...

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: [36] If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. [37] Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

Let's look at it from the perspective of what we find in the NT.
We find a New Covenant'
We find the OC being made obsolete by the new.

So we must establish what a covenant is so we can move forward through the passage. A covenant is a relationship, in this case, God with man. Those he, and he alone, bring into that covenant are his people. The covenant he made with Jacob's (Israel) descendants, makes them his people. Those he brings into the New Covenant are his people. Those in the NC are not restricted by national or ethnic boundaries as they were in the OC. (Don't forget, the whole world belongs to God.)

What else do we find in the NT?
In Romans 9:6 we find ("not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel")
In Gal 3:29 ("if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring").

The passage ultimately speaks of the Chruch as the continuation and fulfillment of Israel---not a replacement, but the expansion of God's covenant people.

The prophecy was given by a Jew and to Jews who did not know what we now know. Therefore it is worded according to Jewish understanding of God's people. They did not know about the work of Christ to bring about the Church. God feels the same way about believing Jews as he does about believing Gentiles. They are his people.

Hosea 2:23 and I will show her for myself in the land, And I will have mercy on No Mercy, and I will say to Not My People, 'You are my people'; and he shall say, 'You are my God.""
If the Church (physical and spiritual Israel) has replaced Israel, then this promise is not true.
See above. The Church does not replace Israel.
No one present today was part of the original audience. Therefore, are any promises for us today?
Another false equivalency. That is not the only option and it is obviously untrue. The very passage you quote from Jer 31 and asked about, guarantees that the covenant promise will come to pass by it use of things of nature that are fixed and certain.
 
There is a whole key to interpreting OT prophecy, but I am not going to be your teacher on the matter, as my qualifications to do so are limited. It is something every serious Bible student should learn.
I wasn't looking for condescension, just looking for dialogue, but thanks anyways.
 
Interesting, that it's not what Jer 31 says...

Jeremiah 31:31 KJV
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Is the church the house of Israel or the house of Judah?

This should not mean that the Old Testament prophecies given to Israel are null and void, as an example, how did Jesus fulfill...

Jeremiah 31:35-37 KJV
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name: [36] If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever. [37] Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

If the Church (physical and spiritual Israel) has replaced Israel, then this promise is not true.

Fine, but with this caveat. No one present today was part of the original audience. Therefore, are any promises for us today?

Jesus spent 40 days explaining the OT. He knew all about the vivid literalism of the prophets , which is usually for effect. Net result: the warnings of Acts 2–4, that any of them that did not follow the New Moses would be ‘humiliatingly disinherited’ (exelothreuthasthai) and so they were in that generation. Or, to fail to honor the Son would result in Him dashing you to pieces.

Why do futurists views always form around ‘gotchas’ about this or that line instead of the actual OT usage as found by the apostles, about the 15-20 passages referenced in the early chapters of Acts?

Re Jer 31
It is officially interp’ed by Hebrews which has no positive view of Israel in its land of any sort. And the ‘congregation’ in Hebrews is the believers, not the whole race-nation.

Eph 2-3 and Rom 11 explain that believers are the Israel of the Gospel, in many, many technical terms: the membership, commonwealth, household, and of course the olive tree is those who have faith in Christ all through time.
 
I wasn't looking for condescension, just looking for dialogue, but thanks anyways.
I am not sure why you think that was condescension. It was just a statement.

However----there was also a great deal of dialogue in the post, so would you be so kind as to address it.
Thanks.
 
I am not sure why you think that was condescension. It was just a statement.
Statements can also be condescending.
There is a whole key to interpreting OT prophecy, but I am not going to be your teacher on the matter, as my qualifications to do so are limited. It is something every serious Bible student should learn.
That sort of thing turns off dialogue.
 
Why do futurists views always form around ‘gotchas’ about this or that line instead of the actual OT usage as found by the apostles, about the 15-20 passages referenced in the early chapters of Acts?
That in itself sounds like a gotcha question.
Eph 2-3 and Rom 11 explain that believers are the Israel of the Gospel, in many, many technical terms: the membership, commonwealth, household, and of course the olive tree is those who have faith in Christ all through time.
Those 'technical terms' can easily be usurped by gentile believers.
 
Statements can also be condescending.

That sort of thing turns off dialogue.
There was no condescending intended on my part. That is all that should matter. If I, the one who wrote it meant, no condescenion , and I clarify that, then there no longer is any viable reason to not engage with the dialog. Right?

I will be waiting.
 
There was no condescending intended on my part. That is all that should matter.
Should it?
2nd degree condescension has the same effect as 1st degree.

Mod Hat: Enough with the bickering and complaining, folks. Let's get back on track.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
That in itself sounds like a gotcha question.

Those 'technical terms' can easily be usurped by gentile believers.

The early Acts teaching is the closest in time to the 40 days.

Psalms 2, 16, 110, 118 are featured heavily.

The 'Seed will bless the nations' is next, Gen 12, 15, 18.

Joel 2 is the largest contiguous quote.

The grammar of the enthronement that David saw is clarified in 2:30, 31, about Ps 132:11 and 2 Sam 7:12-13, allusions not quotes, but obviously showing us that the resurrection is the enthronement David saw coming.

Actually, you could say that "Davidics" in early Acts, by itself, is enough indication of what was meant, found most forcefully in ch 13 where Isaiah is quoted: the oaths to David have been transferred to Christ, and in ch 15 saying that the little tent of David's restoration is the incoming of the Gentiles.

If you can show where the Israel/Judah difference matters at all to the apostles, do tell. But there is certainly no view about the land that matters, since the mission is to all nations even (especially) in the prophets.
 
That in itself sounds like a gotcha question.

Those 'technical terms' can easily be usurped by gentile believers.

'Usurpation'
It's not usurpation when they are clearly explained to be including all who have faith. There are probably 10 terms used this way in chs 2-3.
 
'Usurpation'
It's not usurpation when they are clearly explained to be including all who have faith. There are probably 10 terms used this way in chs 2-3.
Let me repeat, "Those 'technical terms' can easily be usurped by gentile believers." In chapters 2&3 the Gentiles are found guilty as well. (I'm guessing this is where you are going...or please explain).
 
Let me repeat, "Those 'technical terms' can easily be usurped by gentile believers." In chapters 2&3 the Gentiles are found guilty as well. (I'm guessing this is where you are going...or please explain).

I’m in Ephesians…

In Christ all who believe , regardless of dna, share in the membership, the covenant, the family, the household, the citizenship, the commonwealth of Israel.

The 2nd half of ch 2 and 1st half of 3 is about this.

The mystery is that this is true “in the Gospel.” Judaism thought it only true through the law. The mystery is not that God is bouncing back and forth between the race-nation of Israel and the Gentiles, the 2 programs that D’ism imagines.
 
When Paul wrote Rom 11:25-27

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 for this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins

The All Israel that shall be saved is not the physical nation of Israel, but Spiritual Israel, the Body of Christ, comprised of Abrahams Spiritual seed of promise, consisting of jews and gentiles. So in this manner, by the calling in of the Gentile Elect, Sheep together with the jew elect sheep, all Israel shall be saved, the Body of Christ !
 
I’m in Ephesians
In Christ all who believe , regardless of dna, share in the membership, the covenant, the family, the household, the citizenship, the commonwealth of Israel.

The 2nd half of ch 2 and 1st half of 3 is about this.

The mystery is that this is true “in the Gospel.” Judaism thought it only true through the law. The mystery is not that God is bouncing back and forth between the race-nation of Israel and the Gentiles, the 2 programs that D’ism imagines.
Romans 3 says about the same thiing...
Romans 3:9 ESV
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,

Romans 3:21-22 ESV
But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it- [22] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

So, your point?
 
I wrote:
I’m in Ephesians…

In Christ all who believe , regardless of dna, share in the membership, the covenant, the family, the household, the citizenship, the commonwealth of Israel.



Rom 3 is a beautiful statement about the true fulfillment of the arrival of the righteousness of God, but this is a very different theme from Ephesians 2-3. Eph 2-3 means that whatever was separating the two in the promises of God is now out of the way; actually it's a matter of correcting Judaism about this (that Paul was raised in).


You wrote:
Let me repeat, "Those 'technical terms' can easily be usurped by gentile believers." In chapters 2&3 the Gentiles are found guilty as well. (I'm guessing this is where you are going...or please explain).

Show me where the technical terms about inheritance, membership, citizenship are in Rom 3? It's not the flow of thought at all. You may be able to from 4, 9-11 and 15, but not Rom 2-3. Of course, The lines in ch 4 about it could not be powerful unless they were after ch 2-3.

btw, Ephesians 1:1 originally had a blank at the spot where the destination is. It was circulated widely; think of it as a publication. That's now widely Paul intended the 'one new humanity' in Christ message to go.
 
Rom 3 is a beautiful statement about the true fulfillment of the arrival of the righteousness of God, but this is a very different theme from Ephesians 2-3. Eph 2-3 means that whatever was separating the two in the promises of God is now out of the way; actually it's a matter of correcting Judaism about this (that Paul was raised in).
Here is why I brought up Romans 3 and asserted it is similar to Eph 2-3

Romans 3:1 ESV
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision?

Romans 3:9 ESV
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,

Romans 3:22 ESV
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Romans 3:29 ESV
Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

Romans 3:30 ESV
since God is one-who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

I simply believe these passages are saying nearly the same as you are pointing out in Eph 2-3.
 
Here is why I brought up Romans 3 and asserted it is similar to Eph 2-3

Romans 3:1 ESV
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision?

Romans 3:9 ESV
What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,

Romans 3:22 ESV
the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction:

Romans 3:29 ESV
Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,

Romans 3:30 ESV
since God is one-who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

I simply believe these passages are saying nearly the same as you are pointing out in Eph 2-3.


OK, I thought you meant that the technical terms could not be used for gentiles.
 
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