What end time view do you hold to?

[Deleted member 6]

Considering I will not spiritualize or allegorize prophecy, you don't have much of a chance. Consider that some say that Israel becoming a nation again was prophesied in Isaiah. Consider that all the way up to the day that Israel became a nation again, no one believed it would/could happen, and then it did. Consider that ALL the Arab countries attacked Israel as to wipe it out, and they lost big time, and Israel gained a lot of its land back. Consider that at this time a Menorah that had ran out of oil did not go out. Consider that prophecy also says that when the Jews return to the land, it would break forth in plant life, and would once again be a land full of life. Consider that Mark Twain had visited Israel before Israel became a nation again, and he, as well as many others, said that Israel was a barren wasteland. Consider that Israel sprouted forth in vegetation and life after it became a nation again. The Arabs couldn't do it, and they want a piece (well all of it) of that paradise. None of these prophecies need to be allegorized to see that they have actually been fulfilled... literally.

But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. [Malachi 4:2]

Here we see prophecy about the Christ. Is He a literal sun that has wings? Is this to be taken literally?

 

[Reformedguy]

Partial?

Yes, I still believe in Christs return, the resurrection and the final judgement.

 

[armylngst]

But for you who fear my name, the sun of righteousness shall rise with healing in its wings. You shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. [Malachi 4:2]

Here we see prophecy about the Christ. Is He a literal sun that has wings? Is this to be taken literally?

To the believer, what is the literal understanding. Let's see. In scripture we come to know sin as iniquity and infirmity, that is sickness. The Bible treats sin literally as a sickness. Isaiah says, by His stripes we are healed. Is stripes literal, or does something else happened when you are flogged? What is the literal image we get? By His bloody sacrifice, our sin, our sickness is healed. So, here we see Jesus sacrifice rising above the world, but we also see limited atonement in that it is limited solely to those who fear his name. Our infirmity is gone, so we shall go out leaping like calves from the stall. Do you need this to be more literal for you.

Let's allegorize. This is about the church going out and evangelizing the world. However, the church doesn't make disciples of all nations because it is only for those who fear God already. They shall be healed, and can never get sick again. Forever young. (Yes, I took a lot of liberty, but hopefully you see.) By the way Mary had a little lamb, oh and how great a lamb it was. (John MacArthur is really good at allegorizing anything.)

 

[armylngst]

God uses means to accomplish His decreed will. If God wanted to, He could have took Israel out of Egypt Himself, but He used Moses and Aaron to accomplish it for Him. God could save anyone He wants to, regardless they hear(d) the gospel or not, be He chose to use the means of the gospel to save His elect.

Except that God specifically states in scripture that it was He who took Israel out of Egypt. This is the problem with allegorizing. He was specific. The allegorizing you chose says that at the end of time, all will be believers, a form of universalism.

Postmill does not teach that it is only an always upward trajectory, but there will be valleys where things aren't going so well. But this takes place over time, just like it takes time to go from mustard seed to a tree so big that birds can nest in it, and just like it takes time for yeast to spread throughout the whole lump of dough.

It does. That is why Postmillennialism died at the time of WWI and WWII. It ceased to exist. Why? That much evil could not be seen as supporting the idea that the world is getting better. And if you look at the world today and say that it is getting better...

God can do whatsoever He pleases and He does exactly that. God will not pour out His wrath on His Son's body and I have no idea why you even ask such a question.

I ask, because scripture is clear that God is going to pour out His wrath on the world. Of course, that has been allegorized away, just as the Jews allegorized the way that their Messiah was going to be a suffering servant.

 

[ReverendRV]

Good morning Y'all...

Determining Literal, Allegory, Hyperbole, etc; is FUN!


I think I'll take my morning Meds now...

 

[armylngst]

Good morning Y'all...

Determining Literal, Allegory, Hyperbole, etc; is FUN!


I think I'll take my morning Meds now...

If all the messianic prophecies were fulfilled literal, doesn't that mean prophecies are literal? Yes, there is symbolism, but symbolism and allegory are not the same thing. The event being prophesied does not change, or become unrelated to the prophecy read.

 

[Deleted member 5]

Good morning Y'all...

Determining Literal, Allegory, Hyperbole, etc; is FUN!


I think I'll take my morning Meds now...

I don't have an official eschatalogical position. Someday, LORD willing, I'll try to have one. As of now it would probably lean amil.

Figurative language is also something to consider, like the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Does it have to be a literal 1000 year period? No, not in my opinion.

If it is literal, is it down to the last millisecond? If not, is it still literal?

1000 seems to be used figuratively throughout Scripture, as well as 40 days.

 

[ReverendRV]

If all the messianic prophecies were fulfilled literal, doesn't that mean prophecies are literal? Yes, there is symbolism, but symbolism and allegory are not the same thing. The event being prophesied does not change, or become unrelated to the prophecy read.

I think the best example of Fulfilled Prophecy and Unfulfilled Prophecy is, Jesus reading from the Isaiah Scroll and then stopping in the middle of the Prophecy he was reading...

Partial Preterism is apparent...

But is this the right Thread for a Debate? It doesn't bother me; y'all go ahead...

 

[ReverendRV]

I don't have an official eschatalogical position. Someday, LORD willing, I'll try to have one. As of now it would probably lean amil.

Figurative language is also something to consider, like the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Does it have to be a literal 1000 year period? No, not in my opinion.

If it is literal, is it down to the last millisecond? If not, is it still literal?

1000 seems to be used figuratively throughout Scripture, as well as 40 days.

Hey, what happened to the unlimited time to edit Posts? Only 5 minutes to edit now?? My Posts are going to look like junk Like a Redneck wrote them...

 

[Deleted member 5]

Hey, what happened to the unlimited time to edit Posts? Only 5 minutes to edit now?? My Posts are going to look like junk Like a Redneck wrote them...

I did it to sharpen your skills. Next week it will be down to 3 minutes.

 

[ReverendRV]

I think the best example of Fulfilled Prophecy and Unfulfilled Prophecy is, Jesus reading from the Isaiah Scroll and then stopping in the middle of the Prophecy he was reading...

Partial Preterism is apparent...

But is this the right Thread for a Debate? It doesn't bother me; y'all go ahead...

Hey guys, I just found another reason to support the Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory; a point I don't think was raised in civic's Thread...

Just now when I mentioned Jesus reading the Isaiah Scroll but stopping his reading in the middle of a Prophecy, it made me want to go read Isaiah. I immediately thought, "I always assumed Isaiah's Prophecy skipped right to Prophesying about Judgment Day; but what if Isaiah skipped to the Day of the Crucifixion instead?". So I read the Isaiah chapter; and thought, "I could be right!". So of course I read John Gill's Commentary...

the day of vengeance of our God;
when vengeance was taken on sin, in the person of Christ; when he destroyed the works of the devil, the devil himself, and spoiled principalities and powers; when he abolished death, and was the plague and destruction of that and the grave; when he brought wrath to the uttermost on the Jews for the rejection of him, who would not have him to reign over them; and who will take vengeance on antichrist at his spiritual coming, and upon all the wicked at the day of judgment. Kimchi understands this of the day when God shall take vengeance on Gog and Magog. https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/isaiah-61-2.html

The Day of the Cross is also the Day of Vengeance of our God. It seems that John Gill speaks of both Days, but he starts by saying, "when vengeance was taken on sin, in the person of Christ"...

 

[ReverendRV]

Hey, what happened to the unlimited time to edit Posts? Only 5 minutes to edit now?? My Posts are going to look like junk Like a Redneck wrote them...

See, I had to Edit to Add the John Gill Link in my previous Post. I DO have to sharpen my Skills...

And I just added the highlights brought Wrath on that Post. Brought, as on the Day of Crucifixion...

 

[Reformedguy]

I don't have an official eschatalogical position. Someday, LORD willing, I'll try to have one. As of now it would probably lean amil.

Figurative language is also something to consider, like the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Does it have to be a literal 1000 year period? No, not in my opinion.

If it is literal, is it down to the last millisecond? If not, is it still literal?

1000 seems to be used figuratively throughout Scripture, as well as 40 days.

Exactly. Like God owns the cattle on 1000 hills. So the cattle 1001 hill He does not own? Obviously 1000 is figurative.

 

[ReverendRV]

Exactly. Like God owns the cattle on 1000 hills. So the cattle 1001 hill He does not own? Obviously 1000 is figurative.

I am beginning to believe my eclectic view is best...

 

[ReverendRV]

Hey guys, I just found another reason to support the Penal Substitutionary Atonement Theory; a point I don't think was raised in civic's Thread...

Just now when I mentioned Jesus reading the Isaiah Scroll but stopping his reading in the middle of a Prophecy, it made me want to go read Isaiah. I immediately thought, "I always assumed Isaiah's Prophecy skipped right to Prophesying about Judgment Day; but what if Isaiah skipped to the Day of the Crucifixion instead?". So I read the Isaiah chapter; and thought, "I could be right!". So of course I read John Gill's Commentary...

the day of vengeance of our God;
when vengeance was taken on sin, in the person of Christ; when he destroyed the works of the devil, the devil himself, and spoiled principalities and powers; when he abolished death, and was the plague and destruction of that and the grave; when he brought wrath to the uttermost on the Jews for the rejection of him, who would not have him to reign over them; and who will take vengeance on antichrist at his spiritual coming, and upon all the wicked at the day of judgment. Kimchi understands this of the day when God shall take vengeance on Gog and Magog. https://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/isaiah-61-2.html

The Day of the Cross is also the Day of Vengeance of our God. It seems that John Gill speaks of both Days, but he starts by saying, "when vengeance was taken on sin, in the person of Christ"...

The Penal Substitutionary Atonement Thread is closed, or I would have put this there...

 

[makesends]

I don't have an official eschatalogical position. Someday, LORD willing, I'll try to have one. As of now it would probably lean amil.

Figurative language is also something to consider, like the 1000 year reign of Christ.

Does it have to be a literal 1000 year period? No, not in my opinion.

If it is literal, is it down to the last millisecond? If not, is it still literal?

1000 seems to be used figuratively throughout Scripture, as well as 40 days.

I've heard of some tribe in Africa that have no numbers past 20. When they want to say that something will take a long time, whether a year or a month, they say it might take 20 days.

 

[Deleted member 5]

I've heard of some tribe in Africa that have no numbers past 20. When they want to say that something will take a long time, whether a year or a month, they say it might take 20 days.

So then Fifty Cent can't be from that tribe?

 

[Carbon]

So then Fifty Cent can't be from that tribe?

Seems highly unlikely

 

[makesends]

Seems highly unlikely

It would be unlikely that they, at least, would completely acknowledge him, since the difference would be more than 20. Or wait ...maybe they would readily acknowledge him, to avoid attempting the calculation!

 

[Arial]

Amillennial/Idealist






A/I does not alagorize prophecy. It interprets the book literally in the sense that it does so according to the genre in which it is written. Revelation is apocalyptic (revealing) prophecy in the form of an epistle (letter). It is presented in the same manner as much of the OT apocalyptic prophecy----through figurative and symbolic language. Therefore it is to be interpreted symbolically where symbolism is used, and figuratively where representations are used, such as in the repetitive use of specific numbers or combinations/multiplications of those numbers. The entire book is presented in first a series of sevens, in which are also threes, twelves, thousand/thousands. They are ever and always representing something figuratively. And literally where the language is literal such as it is a letter to specific people for a specific reason. The "what is".

It contains both forth-telling of future events and exhortations for the present.

A/I does not see the seven cycles of judgments as sequential all happening in a seven year period, but as parallel in time and content, with the last three sections begin to focus increasingly on the future. These seven sections supplement one another, often looking at the same events from different angles or perspective, such as through different camera lenses, long range, wide angle, close up. They depict the same spiritual war but from fresh vantage points, intensifying as we come closer to His second coming. It is as we come closer that we see the antichrist, the beast etc. who is symbolically represented but is literal and so on.

There are only two ages mentioned in the NT. This age and the age to come. This age is the church age, the time between Christ's first and second coming. The age to come is the restoration of all things, the consummation of our salvation that follows His second coming.

From the interpretive framework of dispensationalism the concept of "ages" is changed to dispensations and actually arrives at three dispensations instead of two ages, and would in effect present three ages where the Bible only says there are two. They have the church age, the thousand year age where Jesus has returned to save ethnic/geographical Israel, and then another age of Jew and Gentile finally becoming one, and you could even add a fourth and fifth. The age when the saints are raptured, and a seven year age of tribulation before He returns. In my opinion that does not align with Scripture in many places and ways.