TULIP Explained

[Arial]

I will post one letter at a time for the sake of shorter posts. What I say is my perception of the doctrines and may differ is some ways from the understanding of other Calvinists. Discussion of those would be a doorway opened for us to learn from one another.

T-total depravity. More accurately stated as utter depravity.

What it does not mean:
That man is as evil as he possibly can be.
That man is completely incapable of doing any good deeds or thinking any good thoughts.
That he does not know right from wrong and never chooses what is right.
That man has no will at all

What it does mean:
The doctrines in TULIP pertain to salvation, not to the generalized concept of man seen in scripture freely making choices.
The T refers back to the fall and the condition of man since that fall in relation to the holy God. Romans 5:12, 17 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Also Romans 1:18-3:31. (Note the wording also of "those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness,)

Total depravity teaches that when mankind fell in Adam, man's nature itself changed, now having the knowledge of evil as well as good that he did not have before. He now is bent away from perfect righteousness to the sinful desires of his flesh. This puts him at enmity with God. Man's will is affected by the fall just as surely as are his mind and his body. The mind moves the will and the will moves the body in a manner of speaking.

We must keep in mind the absolute perfect holiness of God. There is no spot or blemish there nor can it allow any spot or blemish to approach Him.

Though man has the capacity of choice in regards to God, he also cannot choose Him because he does not will (want) to. And why is that? It would mean giving up all his sinful desires and this he does not want to do and in truth cannot want to do. Sin dwells in him. Sin is as much a part of mankind as are his breathing, and thinking, the way he navigates in the world, as to what sort of creature(created) being he is. As a cat is always a cat, a dog always a dog etc.

 

[Arial]

Before I go on to the U let me backtrack a bit. The doctrine of election begins with theology (who God reveals Himself to be in scripture). The passages where He declares that He is sovereign over all, and governs all are too numerous to list. We see Him always being the One who chooses, nations and people, and places and times. Then there are the innumerable passages that refer to those in Christ being foreknown, predestined, chosen, elect, called. We have the passages of Jesus saying God gives people to Him. We have His flock and His sheep who hear His voice and know Him. Everyone who has genuine faith in the person and work of Christ has that faith because they are the elect.

Unconditional election.

This simply states that no one is chosen by God because of anything they have done or will do. His choice is not arbitrary because there is nothing arbitrary in anything God does. That would contradict who He is. He only tells us that it is according to the pleasure of His will. Eph 1:3-6

 

[Carbon]

I will post one letter at a time for the sake of shorter posts. What I say is my perception of the doctrines and may differ is some ways from the understanding of other Calvinists. Discussion of those would be a doorway opened for us to learn from one another.

T-total depravity. More accurately stated as utter depravity.

What it does not mean:
That man is as evil as he possibly can be.
That man is completely incapable of doing any good deeds or thinking any good thoughts.
That he does not know right from wrong and never chooses what is right.
That man has no will at all

What it does mean:
The doctrines in TULIP pertain to salvation, not to the generalized concept of man seen in scripture freely making choices.
The T refers back to the fall and the condition of man since that fall in relation to the holy God. Romans 5:12, 17 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Also Romans 1:18-3:31. (Note the wording also of "those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness,)

Total depravity teaches that when mankind fell in Adam, man's nature itself changed, now having the knowledge of evil as well as good that he did not have before. He now is bent away from perfect righteousness to the sinful desires of his flesh. This puts him at enmity with God. Man's will is affected by the fall just as surely as are his mind and his body. The mind moves the will and the will moves the body in a manner of speaking.

We must keep in mind the absolute perfect holiness of God. There is no spot or blemish there nor can it allow any spot or blemish to approach Him.

Though man has the capacity of choice in regards to God, he also cannot choose Him because he does not will (want) to. And why is that? It would mean giving up all his sinful desires and this he does not want to do and in truth cannot want to do. Sin dwells in him. Sin is as much a part of mankind as are his breathing, and thinking, the way he navigates in the world, as to what sort of creature(created) being he is. As a cat is always a cat, a dog always a dog etc.

I agree. And I would only add that Man hates God. and man (the reprobate) will continue to hate God and want nothing to do with Him even when they are in hell.

Also, TD also means every part of man has been affected by the fall.

 

[Carbon]

Before I go on to the U let me backtrack a bit. The doctrine of election begins with theology (who God reveals Himself to be in scripture). The passages where He declares that He is sovereign over all, and governs all are too numerous to list. We see Him always being the One who chooses, nations and people, and places and times. Then there are the innumerable passages that refer to those in Christ being foreknown, predestined, chosen, elect, called. We have the passages of Jesus saying God gives people to Him. We have His flock and His sheep who hear His voice and know Him. Everyone who has genuine faith in the person and work of Christ has that faith because they are the elect.

Amen!

Unconditional election.

This simply states that no one is chosen by God because of anything they have done or will do. His choice is not arbitrary because there is nothing arbitrary in anything God does. That would contradict who He is. He only tells us that it is according to the pleasure of His will. Eph 1:3-6

 

[fastfredy0]

T-total depravity. More accurately stated as utter depravity.

I liked everything you said pretty much. Just to keep things interesting I had one minor quibble/question regarding:

man's nature itself changed, now having the knowledge of evil as well as good

I wonder if this is true. Did Adam not know eating the fruit was evil? Can Adam be convicted got doing something he did not know was wrong? I don't know but consider the unfallen angels ... do they not know what evil is as they are watching us ...I got to think so.

 

[Arial]

I liked everything you said pretty much. Just to keep things interesting I had one minor quibble/question regarding:

I wonder if this is true. Did Adam not know eating the fruit was evil? Can Adam be convicted got doing something he did not know was wrong? I don't know but consider the unfallen angels ... do they not know what evil is as they are watching us ...I got to think so.

This is one of those places where I have to do the unbelievable. Say, "I don't know."

But truly, it is one of those things we are unable to imagine and therefore cannot know, what it would be like, this statement regarding the three of the knowledge of good and evil. We have no idea what it is like to not know evil and so cannot know in exactly what way Adam did not know it. They only knew God until the serpent came along talking to Eve.

But there is this. Eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil is what brought this knowledge into Adam and Eve. In whatever way, before it was outside them.

 

[Arial]

Limited atonement: This is also an instant misunderstanding of what the doctrine actually contains, simply to spell tulip, and it causes an instant negative reaction so strong that many turn away in horror and never find out what is actually being taught. And yet always repeat what it does not teach.

It is actually expressing definite atonement. That Jesus accomplished on the cross exactly what He came to accomplish. Consistent with utter depravity and unconditional election, it looks to the whole counsel of God and states that if God elects some to salvation for His purposes, and not all, also for His purposes, then these would be the one's Christ died for specifically. There was no weakness or possibility of failure to accomplish His purpose, at the cross.

And though the whole counsel of God is used to arrive at this doctrine (and all the others) it is impossible to present that in a forum. So I will give scriptures to support what is taught, not as "proof texts" but to show the concept does exist in scripture.

We are told many things concerning this by Jesus Himself.
John 3:1-15
John 6:37-40,44,65
John 17:1-4,6,9
And we have Acts 13:48

God had a definite purpose in sending Jesus, to redeem those He knew before the foundation of the world. The term foreknew in the scripture refers to His knowing them before they were yet born, not to His looking forward in time and seeing who would believe. That is actually absurd if closely looked at with a theological lens that takes all of the self revealed God into account. Jesus came to fulfill that definite purpose. Redeeming those God gave Him. The Holy Spirit applies the work of Jesus to each of those God knew and gave.

 

[Arial]

Irresistible grace: Again this reminds many of all the times it is said we resist the Holy Spirit. That is not resisting grace except in the sense that all that the Holy Spirit does and teaches comes from grace. So the doctrine of irresistible grace teaches effectual grace. Everything that God gives, sends, does is effectual. It accomplishes what He intends it to accomplish just as His word does. Is 55:11 So shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

If the human race is so utterly affected in all our ways by the fall so as to make it impossible to even desire to the perfect holiness of God, and impossible to accomplish, and therefore he will not and cannot by his nature, choose Christ, who is the only way to God, ("No one comes to the Father except through me.) , and if the Father chooses those who He will give to the Son, and if Jesus laid down His life on the cross for those the Father gave Him, then God must do something for those chosen that assures the Jesus does not lose them.

Eph 2:4-9 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ---by grace you have been saved ---and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no man can boast.

He sends grace that accomplishes it purpose.

Preservation of the saints: If mankind is so fallen in His being, and therefore cannot give up all his sin and cannot even want to give up all his sin, and if God elects some to salvation to give to the Son, and if Jesus goes to the cross to take sins punishment for those God elects to give to Him, and if God gives grace to believe to those elect insuring that Christ indeed saves them, then God must also preserve them in that faith to the end. ("I will lose none whom the Father has given me.") He insures their perseverance in the faith.

 

[atpollard]

This is one of those places where I have to do the unbelievable. Say, "I don't know."

But truly, it is one of those things we are unable to imagine and therefore cannot know, what it would be like, this statement regarding the three of the knowledge of good and evil. We have no idea what it is like to not know evil and so cannot know in exactly what way Adam did not know it. They only knew God until the serpent came along talking to Eve.

But there is this. Eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil is what brought this knowledge into Adam and Eve. In whatever way, before it was outside them.

It helps to remember that Hebrew is not Greek or English. "Knowledge/Know" in Hebrew thought and language is not the same as Greek Philosophy of "Knowledge" (as we inherited in English). Most people are aware of Adam "knowing" Eve ... after the snickering dies down ... the point remains that Hebrew KNOWLEDGE is both RELATIONAL and EXPERIENTIAL, not an abstract "thought/mind" thing like Greek and English.

So Adam did not KNOW (relational/experiential) EVIL before he sinned the way he KNEW (relational/experiential) EVIL after he sinned. The RELATIONAL knowledge of sin broke the RELATIONAL knowledge of God ... Adam was afraid and hid.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Total depravity teaches that when mankind fell in Adam, man's nature itself changed, now having the knowledge of evil as well as good that he did not have before.

SO why did Adam, the first time he had the chance, immediately, and of his own free will, Toss God under the bus, side with satan, and do EXACTLY WHAT GOD TOLD HIM NOT TO DO???

Adam probably DIDN'T KNOW that he'd given his sovereignty over the creation over to satan, that the earth would be CURSED for his sake, or that his "Free lunch was over, and he'd have to WORK to survive. But it appears that the only thing that made Adam's SIN "Original" was that it was the first one.

Sounds to me that Adam already had a "Fallen nature" ("Corrupt nature" / "Sin nature" / choose you buzz word) , since his free will reaction to "Temptation" was exactly like ours is now. So what supposedly Changed about Adam's "Nature"???

Though man has the capacity of choice in regards to God, he also cannot choose Him because he does not will (want) to. And why is that? It would mean giving up all his sinful desires and this he does not want to do and in truth cannot want to do.

Other than the FAITH ISSUE, which humans are incapable of self generating, this sounds accurate. I certainly didn't want to "give up" MY way of life - even though I was conversant enough with the Bible to be aware of the concept that HELL AWAITED, if I should die physically.

For sure, without "Conviction of SIN from the Holy Spirit" (God's Word to you - Rom 10:17), A person is unable to respond in FAITH that God will save them. "Belief" (mental assent) won't get it done, since "Belief" has no "Substance", and isn't an "Evidence" of anything - Heb 11:1.

 

[Arial]

SO why did Adam, the first time he had the chance, immediately, and of his own free will, Toss God under the bus, side with satan, and do EXACTLY WHAT GOD TOLD HIM NOT TO DO???

Sounds to me that Adam already had a "Fallen nature" ("Corrupt nature" / "Sin nature" / choose you buzz word) , since his free will reaction to "Temptation" was exactly like ours is now. So what supposedly Changed about Adam's "Nature"???

If he already had a fallen nature then God created him fallen. If he already had a fallen nature he would not have been in the presence of holy, holy holy God. Why do you think he was kicked out of the Garden.

 

[Arial]

It helps to remember that Hebrew is not Greek or English. "Knowledge/Know" in Hebrew thought and language is not the same as Greek Philosophy of "Knowledge" (as we inherited in English). Most people are aware of Adam "knowing" Eve ... after the snickering dies down ... the point remains that Hebrew KNOWLEDGE is both RELATIONAL and EXPERIENTIAL, not an abstract "thought/mind" thing like Greek and English.

So Adam did not KNOW (relational/experiential) EVIL before he sinned the way he KNEW (relational/experiential) EVIL after he sinned. The RELATIONAL knowledge of sin broke the RELATIONAL knowledge of God ... Adam was afraid and hid.

Exactly. I thought about that after I had posted my response to FastFreddy and was having another cuppa. Almost added it. Adam and Eve could not more imagine evil having never experienced it, than we can imagine no evil, having never experienced it. But I did not think of it in the relational aspect you point out. Very good. Thanks for that.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

If he already had a fallen nature then God created him fallen. If he already had a fallen nature he would not have been in the presence of holy, holy holy God. Why do you think he was kicked out of the Garden.

Because Adam was now a SINFUL HUMAN, Spiritually DEAD (as God promised) and alienated from God, same as the rest of us. "Fallen nature" (Corrupt nature, SIn nature, etc.) is a "Theological Buzz word". Adam, like ALL HUMANS had a "Human nature", and was totally INNOCENT - until he wasn't any more.

 

[Arial]

Because Adam was now a SINFUL HUMAN, Spiritually DEAD (as God promised) and alienated from God, same as the rest of us. "Fallen nature" (Corrupt nature, SIn nature, etc.) is a "Theological Buzz word". Adam, like ALL HUMANS had a "Human nature", and was totally INNOCENT - until he wasn't any more.

Hey I am just explaining the doctrines in TULIP. You can believe them or not as you wish.

 

[fastfredy0]

Adam and Eve could not more imagine evil having never experienced it, than we can imagine no evil, having never experienced it.

So, the unfallen angels who observe us ... they can't imagine evil having never experienced it?
Or is observing evil experience enough? ... and if so, did not Adam contemplate evil before committing evil as his mind was told of a situation that involved evil and thus he contemplated evil which is a form of experiencing evil.

Not sure the made sense ... not that this is that important in the scheme of life *giggle*

Maybe @atpollard has a point in post #9 ... I sort of get it.
I'lll have to send him back to 'lurking' mode if he continues to use his advanced mental abilities.

 

[Marilyn C]

Limited atonement: This is also an instant misunderstanding of what the doctrine actually contains, simply to spell tulip, and it causes an instant negative reaction so strong that many turn away in horror and never find out what is actually being taught. And yet always repeat what it does not teach.

It is actually expressing definite atonement. That Jesus accomplished on the cross exactly what He came to accomplish. Consistent with utter depravity and unconditional election, it looks to the whole counsel of God and states that if God elects some to salvation for His purposes, and not all, also for His purposes, then these would be the one's Christ died for specifically. There was no weakness or possibility of failure to accomplish His purpose, at the cross.

And though the whole counsel of God is used to arrive at this doctrine (and all the others) it is impossible to present that in a forum. So I will give scriptures to support what is taught, not as "proof texts" but to show the concept does exist in scripture.

We are told many things concerning this by Jesus Himself.
John 3:1-15
John 6:37-40,44,65
John 17:1-4,6,9
And we have Acts 13:48

God had a definite purpose in sending Jesus, to redeem those He knew before the foundation of the world. The term foreknew in the scripture refers to His knowing them before they were yet born, not to His looking forward in time and seeing who would believe. That is actually absurd if closely looked at with a theological lens that takes all of the self revealed God into account. Jesus came to fulfill that definite purpose. Redeeming those God gave Him. The Holy Spirit applies the work of Jesus to each of those God knew and gave.

Hi Arial,

I am appreciating your notes, however I do have some questions. Is this the place to ask them?

 

[Ritajanice]

Hey I am just explaining the doctrines in TULIP. You can believe them or not as you wish.

You are explaining what “ YOU” believe are the doctrines of TULIP.

I may join in the discussion later....I’m not familiar with the five points of TULIP...so am just observing the discussion at the moment...

 

[Ritajanice]

Because Adam was now a SINFUL HUMAN, Spiritually DEAD (as God promised) and alienated from God, same as the rest of us. "Fallen nature" (Corrupt nature, SIn nature, etc.) is a "Theological Buzz word". Adam, like ALL HUMANS had a "Human nature", and was totally INNOCENT - until he wasn't any more.

I never knew Adam had a human nature...it makes sense though...because he couldn’t have a divine nature could he?

Because he wasn’t God?

Interesting reading @Bob Carabbio .....I’m still learning so go easy on me.

 

[Arial]

You are explaining what “ YOU” believe are the doctrines of TULIP.

I may join in the discussion later....I’m not familiar with the five points of TULIP...so am just observing the discussion at the moment...

I am explaining what the doctrines of the tulip ARE. If someone disagrees with them that does not mean that is not what they are. Those who do know what they are because they have studied them and mostly agree with them as they find the Bible to support them, may have differing insights or angles or different or better ways of expressing these doctrines.

 

[Arial]

Hi Arial,

I am appreciating your notes, however I do have some questions. Is this the place to ask them?

Ask away. I will do my best to answer and if I fumble at it, there are others here who can add their insights. I like questions. They make me think.