TULIP Explained

[Carbon]

David1701 said:
After Adam (the lump of clay) had sinned, God made some of his descendants (vessels) for dishonour and never-ending, ongoing destruction.

Actually, it wasn't after Adam sinned. This was already agreed upon in the COR. Not after Adam sinned.

Wow!!...really...that sounds like controlling a robot..?

No, not at all. No man is forced not to accept Christ, it's their choice.

 

[Ritajanice]

Actually, it wasn't after Adam sinned. This was already agreed upon in the COR. Not after Adam sinned.

No, not at all. No man is forced not to accept Christ, it's their choice.

What does the second sentence mean?

How do they not accept Christ, if they don’t know who he is?

No man is forced not to accept Christ?....I really don’t understand..

 

[Carbon]

What does the second sentence mean?

You mean as COR? Covenant of redemption.

How do they not accept Christ, if they don’t know who he is?

Just like everyone else who does not know who he is. Im not sure I am getting your meaning by the way you asked it.

No man is forced not to accept Christ?....I really don’t understand..

No one is forced not to accept Christ. In other words, man rejects Christ because they want to. They freely chose to reject him.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I am explaining what the doctrines of the tulip ARE. If someone disagrees with them that does not mean that is not what they are.

Totally accurate!!!

 

[Ritajanice]

You mean as COR? Covenant of redemption.

Just like everyone else who does not know who he is. Im not sure I am getting your meaning by the way you asked it.

No one is forced not to accept Christ. In other words, man rejects Christ because they want to. They freely chose to reject him.

I think I will leave it there...as I haven’t a clue what you are talking about...not being rude..just being honest..

I don’t understand how anyone can reject God..when they don’t even know him...because they are in deep dark sin, blind and alienated from God.

 

[David1701]

Actually, it wasn't after Adam sinned. This was already agreed upon in the COR. Not after Adam sinned.

I was referring to us being made (formed in the womb - like a potter making a vessel). The elect were chosen in Christ, before the foundation of the world; but, we were made (formed in the womb) in time.

 

[Marilyn C]

Ask away. I will do my best to answer and if I fumble at it, there are others here who can add their insights. I like questions. They make me think.

Hi Arial,

You gave these scriptures `to show the concept does exist in scripture.`

`Consistent with utter depravity and unconditional election, it looks to the whole counsel of God and states that if God elects some to salvation for His purposes, and not all, also for His purposes, then these would be the one's Christ died for specifically.`

John 3:1-15 `that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.` (v. 15)
We read of `whoever...` as anyone.

John 6:37-40,44,65 `All the Father gives me will come to me...` ` No one comes to me unless the Father draws him,...` no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by my Father..`
We read of the Father drawing people to Jesus when He was manifest on earth.

John 17:1-4,6,9 `He should give eternal life to as many as you have given Him...` ` to the men you have given me out of the world.` `I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.`
We read of the Father drawing people to Jesus when He was manifest on earth.

` I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in me through their word;..` (John 17: 20)
We read that others will believe through those that the Father gave the Son.

And we have Acts 13:48 `Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.`

We read that those who believed were appointed to eternal life. Those who went through the `door` of Christ, (the whosoever) realised that they were given, (appointed by the Father) to have eternal life.

So how do you reconcile the `whoever` with the Father choosing some after Christ had risen and before He was manifest on earth?

 

[Ritajanice]

No, not at all. No man is forced not to accept Christ, it's their choice.

I’m back,....because this is starting to make sense.

As an unregenerate, that I once was, I did not believe in God...or maybe I did, but only as an unregenerate..I wasn’t interested in knowing anything about God..even though he had been placed in front of me many times..I used to work for a minister..I was taught RE at secondary school...nope, I wasn’t interested in the slightest...in fact I thought these Born again believers were round the bend.......so I was completely in unbelief and darkness.

So, looking back, it wasn’t my appointed time to be birthed in the Spirit by God....as I was totally depraved..completely helpless......out of his mercy and grace for this sinner...he chose to draw me to Jesus and birth me in the Spirit....

Many are still in that depraved state....look at the state of some of their lives....God made them for destruction did he?.....driven by their own evil desires..is that what his word is saying?

I know I am a pain...but...at the moment God has given me a very enquiring mind....

None of what I have typed is scriptural...just needed to offload my thoughts..

 

[Arial]

Hi Arial,

You gave these scriptures `to show the concept does exist in scripture.`

`Consistent with utter depravity and unconditional election, it looks to the whole counsel of God and states that if God elects some to salvation for His purposes, and not all, also for His purposes, then these would be the one's Christ died for specifically.`

John 3:1-15 `that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.` (v. 15)
We read of `whoever...` as anyone.

John 6:37-40,44,65 `All the Father gives me will come to me...` ` No one comes to me unless the Father draws him,...` no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by my Father..`
We read of the Father drawing people to Jesus when He was manifest on earth.

John 17:1-4,6,9 `He should give eternal life to as many as you have given Him...` ` to the men you have given me out of the world.` `I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.`
We read of the Father drawing people to Jesus when He was manifest on earth.

` I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in me through their word;..` (John 17: 20)
We read that others will believe through those that the Father gave the Son.

And we have Acts 13:48 `Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.`

We read that those who believed were appointed to eternal life. Those who went through the `door` of Christ, (the whosoever) realised that they were given, (appointed by the Father) to have eternal life.

So how do you reconcile the `whoever` with the Father choosing some after Christ had risen and before He was manifest on earth?

Eph 1:3 -4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him.

The "whoever" are those who put their trust in God, who was triune both before and after the incarnation. The whoever are those who God will bring to faith

 

[Arial]

So, the unfallen angels who observe us ... they can't imagine evil having never experienced it?
Or is observing evil experience enough? ... and if so, did not Adam contemplate evil before committing evil as his mind was told of a situation that involved evil and thus he contemplated evil which is a form of experiencing evil.

I'm not sure what angels have to do with Adam and Eve, but 1/3 of them fell from heaven with satan. We aren't told much about them except for what they do.

The scriptures don't tell us what Adam contemplated or what he thought when he took the fruit from Eve and ate.

 

[Ritajanice]

Hi Arial,

You gave these scriptures `to show the concept does exist in scripture.`

`Consistent with utter depravity and unconditional election, it looks to the whole counsel of God and states that if God elects some to salvation for His purposes, and not all, also for His purposes, then these would be the one's Christ died for specifically.`

John 3:1-15 `that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.` (v. 15)
We read of `whoever...` as anyone.

John 6:37-40,44,65 `All the Father gives me will come to me...` ` No one comes to me unless the Father draws him,...` no one can come to me unless it has been granted to him by my Father..`
We read of the Father drawing people to Jesus when He was manifest on earth.

John 17:1-4,6,9 `He should give eternal life to as many as you have given Him...` ` to the men you have given me out of the world.` `I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.`
We read of the Father drawing people to Jesus when He was manifest on earth.

` I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in me through their word;..` (John 17: 20)
We read that others will believe through those that the Father gave the Son.

And we have Acts 13:48 `Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.`

We read that those who believed were appointed to eternal life. Those who went through the `door` of Christ, (the whosoever) realised that they were given, (appointed by the Father) to have eternal life.

So how do you reconcile the `whoever` with the Father choosing some after Christ had risen and before He was manifest on earth?

Look at this scripture @Marilyn C ...who is God talking to here in his word?

John 17​

​

King James Version​

​

​

17 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them

My words...In Jesus Name!.....The Born Again Glorify the Son!!...and only the Son!

 

[David1701]

I’m back,....because this is starting to make sense.

As an unregenerate, that I once was, I did not believe in God...or maybe I did, but only as an unregenerate..I wasn’t interested in knowing anything about God..even though he had been placed in front of me many times..I used to work for a minister..I was taught RE at secondary school...nope, I wasn’t interested in the slightest...in fact I thought these Born again believers were round the bend.......so I was completely in unbelief and darkness.

So, looking back, it wasn’t my appointed time to be birthed in the Spirit by God....as I was totally depraved..completely helpless......out of his mercy and grace for this sinner...he chose to draw me to Jesus and birth me in the Spirit....

Many are still in that depraved state....look at the state of some of their lives....God made them for destruction did he?.....driven by their own evil desires..is that what his word is saying?

I know I am a pain...but...at the moment God has given me a very enquiring mind....

None of what I have typed is scriptural...just needed to offload my thoughts..

Yes, some of us hell-deserving vessels are made for destruction (vessels of wrath), and some of us for mercy (vessels of mercy - praise God!). See Rom. 9

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes, some of us hell-deserving vessels are made for destruction (vessels of wrath), and some of us for mercy (vessels of mercy - praise God!). See Rom. 9

Amen!!....I got it...I was praying all night and asked God to show me what the heck is @Carbon talking about......Praise God indeed.

 

[Ladodgers6]

I will post one letter at a time for the sake of shorter posts. What I say is my perception of the doctrines and may differ is some ways from the understanding of other Calvinists. Discussion of those would be a doorway opened for us to learn from one another.

T-total depravity. More accurately stated as utter depravity.

What it does not mean:
That man is as evil as he possibly can be.
That man is completely incapable of doing any good deeds or thinking any good thoughts.
That he does not know right from wrong and never chooses what is right.
That man has no will at all

What it does mean:
The doctrines in TULIP pertain to salvation, not to the generalized concept of man seen in scripture freely making choices.
The T refers back to the fall and the condition of man since that fall in relation to the holy God. Romans 5:12, 17 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned. 17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Also Romans 1:18-3:31. (Note the wording also of "those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness,)

Total depravity teaches that when mankind fell in Adam, man's nature itself changed, now having the knowledge of evil as well as good that he did not have before. He now is bent away from perfect righteousness to the sinful desires of his flesh. This puts him at enmity with God. Man's will is affected by the fall just as surely as are his mind and his body. The mind moves the will and the will moves the body in a manner of speaking.

We must keep in mind the absolute perfect holiness of God. There is no spot or blemish there nor can it allow any spot or blemish to approach Him.

Though man has the capacity of choice in regards to God, he also cannot choose Him because he does not will (want) to. And why is that? It would mean giving up all his sinful desires and this he does not want to do and in truth cannot want to do. Sin dwells in him. Sin is as much a part of mankind as are his breathing, and thinking, the way he navigates in the world, as to what sort of creature(created) being he is. As a cat is always a cat, a dog always a dog etc.

Great post, good job! If I may add to this, those who oppose TD, do not understand what we lost in the Fall, and the consequences of it. Knowing Adam & Eve were created upright and good with a Total Free-Will to fulfill the Covenant of Works. God gave them everything a Paradise, Love, Shelter, Food, Authority, Relationship with Him on a Level of walking & talking with him. My imagination can even paint a picture of what that must of looked like to be in Paradise with God.

Anyway that all ended horrifically when the Covenant was breached with betrayal, evil and sin. They were charged with treason, exile, and death and the doors to paradise shut tight behind them as they were cast out into outer darkness. The image of God now smeared with sin, affecting the very core of all our faculties. Now being sworn enemies of God, we walk the earth condemned sinners, awaiting the state of execution. Following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Radical Depravity is that sin has affected every part of us to its core. Not like only a part is broken and the Gospel helps us fix it so we can do the rest, but all of us is broken. You can give a cannibal utensils to eat, but that doesn't change anything correct? They need to be restored completely. We are talking about the Spiritual things of God. The separation that sin has caused, and the consequences of it. Judgement has been sanctioned, and payment is due.​

 

[Ritajanice]

If I may add to this, those who oppose TD, do not understand what we lost in the Fall, and the consequences of it. Knowing Adam & Eve were created upright and good with a Total Free-Will to fulfill the Covenant of Works. God gave them everything a Paradise, Love, Shelter, Food, Authority, Relationship with Him on a Level of walking & talking with him. My imagination can even paint of picture of what that must of looked like to be in Paradise with God.

Anyway that all ended horrifically when the Covenant was breached with betrayal, evil and sin. They were charged with treason, exile, and death and the doors to paradise shut tight behind them as they were cast out into outer darkness. The image of God now smeared and sin affecting with very core of all our faculties. Now being sworn enemies of God, we walk the earth condemned sinners, awaiting the state of execution. Following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Radical Depravity is that sin has affected every part of us to its core. Not like only a part is broken and the Gospel helps us fix it so we can do the rest, but all of us is broken. You can give a cannibal utensils to eat, but that doesn't change anything correct? They need to be restored completely. We are talking about the Spiritual things of God. The separation that sin has caused, and the consequences of it. Judgement has been sanctioned, and payment is due.​

This is a great summary..i can’t see how it’s head knowledge....it’s spiritual knowledge..it’s speaks to the heart of a Born Again...who is understanding what is being said here...imo/ belief...

 

[Arial]

Great post, good job! If I may add to this, those who oppose TD, do not understand what we lost in the Fall, and the consequences of it. Knowing Adam & Eve were created upright and good with a Total Free-Will to fulfill the Covenant of Works. God gave them everything a Paradise, Love, Shelter, Food, Authority, Relationship with Him on a Level of walking & talking with him. My imagination can even paint of picture of what that must of looked like to be in Paradise with God.

Anyway that all ended horrifically when the Covenant was breached with betrayal, evil and sin. They were charged with treason, exile, and death and the doors to paradise shut tight behind them as they were cast out into outer darkness. The image of God now smeared and sin affecting with very core of all our faculties. Now being sworn enemies of God, we walk the earth condemned sinners, awaiting the state of execution. Following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Radical Depravity is that sin has affected every part of us to its core. Not like only a part is broken and the Gospel helps us fix it so we can do the rest, but all of us is broken. You can give a cannibal utensils to eat, but that doesn't change anything correct? They need to be restored completely. We are talking about the Spiritual things of God. The separation that sin has caused, and the consequences of it. Judgement has been sanctioned, and payment is due.​

I agree 100% that the problem with TD is that those opposed not only don't understand what we lost in the fall, or even begin to, they also do not understand the holiness of God. They do not grasp Holy, Holy, Holy, in the way Isaiah did.

6 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train[a] of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called to another and said:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory!”[b]
4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!”

And they do not see themselves as Isaiah saw himself.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Great post, good job! If I may add to this, those who oppose TD, do not understand what we lost in the Fall, and the consequences of it. Knowing Adam & Eve were created upright and good with a Total Free-Will to fulfill the Covenant of Works. God gave them everything a Paradise, Love, Shelter, Food, Authority, Relationship with Him on a Level of walking & talking with him. My imagination can even paint of picture of what that must of looked like to be in Paradise with God.

Anyway that all ended horrifically when the Covenant was breached with betrayal, evil and sin. They were charged with treason, exile, and death and the doors to paradise shut tight behind them as they were cast out into outer darkness. The image of God now smeared and sin affecting with very core of all our faculties. Now being sworn enemies of God, we walk the earth condemned sinners, awaiting the state of execution. Following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Radical Depravity is that sin has affected every part of us to its core. Not like only a part is broken and the Gospel helps us fix it so we can do the rest, but all of us is broken. You can give a cannibal utensils to eat, but that doesn't change anything correct? They need to be restored completely. We are talking about the Spiritual things of God. The separation that sin has caused, and the consequences of it. Judgement has been sanctioned, and payment is due.​

The problem with the T is that it means Total, and humans are born with a conscience.

 

[Ritajanice]

The problem with the T is that it means Total, and humans are born with a conscience.

Online explanation..not saying it’s right...just posting a different view on conscience.

Is conscience a learned behavior?


Wolman's Dictionary of Behavioral Science defines "conscience" as "1. The individual's set of moral values which was thought to be innate by theologians but is now believed to be learned. 2.

 

[fastfredy0]

Knowing Adam & Eve were created upright and good with a Total Free-Will to fulfill the Covenant of Works.

I might quibble with the above part of your statement ... to keep things interesting . (I'm fine with the rest).
Premise 1: God determines all things and therefore knows all things
Premise 2: God determined Adam would fall
Conclusion: Adam was not free to do other than what God had determined He would do (in him we live and breathe and have our being)

God could have created an Adam that would have obeyed if you so desire. God's created legions of angels that obey; creating an Adam that obeyed would be simple for Him. Adam was not free to go contrary to God's determined decree.

Aside: Perhaps you define FREE WILL differently than I perceive.

 

[Ladodgers6]

I agree 100% that the problem with TD is that those opposed not only don't understand what we lost in the fall, or even begin to, they also do not understand the holiness of God. They do not grasp Holy, Holy, Holy, in the way Isaiah did.

6 In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train[a] of his robe filled the temple. 2 Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3 And one called to another and said:

“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
the whole earth is full of his glory!”[b]
4 And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5 And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!”

And they do not see themselves as Isaiah saw himself.

Amen to that sister! The very Holiness of God shakes the ground upon sinners stand.