The powerless Arminian Jesus

[Carbon]

Arminians must believe, to be consistent, that God made a mistake somewhere in the creation of man. A big mistake, because He lost mankind when Adam sinned.
Because of loosing man, all He can do now is try to get them all back by sending His Son to die for all their sins in hopes they will all believe and return.
Even though He knows not everyone will believe He still hopes to save them all.

Makes me wonder, when God decided on the redemption of mankind, we’re the angels doubting Him as far as completing the task?
Were they also hoping the plan would be successful?
Were they confused when people denied Christ and died in their sins?

The angels watched the crucifixion of Jesus, being under God’s wrath and dying to save the lost. Yet many are not going to be saved.

If Arminianism were true, it must be extremely disturbing and great confusion among the angels knowing that Christ not only died for many who go to hell but seeing “Jesus also interceding for them to the Father and getting no where.”
I would have to wonder while Christ is interceding on behalf of a sinner, if the angels are curious of the outcome. I wonder if some thought God the Son wont get anywhere today, or will he?

They would have to be even more confused knowing unbelief is a sin that Christ died for also.
And since many don’t believe, that particular sin just couldn’t be covered because these will go to hell.

Since he died for all sins, he died for the sin of unbelief also.

Since that be the case, why did Jesus say to only one thief, “today you shall be with me in paradise.” Why didn’t he say, “today you both will be with me in paradise?”
Also, this one passage alone totally destroys the forbidden topic of Uni-ism.

Some would have it that Jesus only suffered on the cross, But wasn’t under God’s wrath, he wasn’t crushed, abandoned, treated like a criminal, no sins were laid on him. But just suffered a bit, after all someone had to.

The angels of this situation must have thought, why would the Father according to the divine plan have him treated like a criminal, crushed and crucified while all the while no imputation of sin on him, but was totally holy and righteous.

Not only do I see confusion of the arminians, but if their doctrines were true the angels would be even more confused.

 

[makesends]

Arminians must believe, to be consistent, that God made a mistake somewhere in the creation of man. A big mistake, because He lost mankind when Adam sinned.
Because of loosing man, all He can do now is try to get them all back by sending His Son to die for all their sins in hopes they will all believe and return.
Even though He knows not everyone will believe He still hopes to save them all.

Makes me wonder, when God decided on the redemption of mankind, we’re the angels doubting Him as far as completing the task?
Were they also hoping the plan would be successful?
Were they confused when people denied Christ and died in their sins?

The angels watched the crucifixion of Jesus, being under God’s wrath and dying to save the lost. Yet many are not going to be saved.

If Arminianism were true, it must be extremely disturbing and great confusion among the angels knowing that Christ not only died for many who go to hell but seeing “Jesus also interceding for them to the Father and getting no where.”
I would have to wonder while Christ is interceding on behalf of a sinner, if the angels are curious of the outcome. I wonder if some thought God the Son wont get anywhere today, or will he?

They would have to be even more confused knowing unbelief is a sin that Christ died for also.
And since many don’t believe, that particular sin just couldn’t be covered because these will go to hell.

Since he died for all sins, he died for the sin of unbelief also.

Since that be the case, why did Jesus say to only one thief, “today you shall be with me in paradise.” Why didn’t he say, “today you both will be with me in paradise?”
Also, this one passage alone totally destroys the forbidden topic of Uni-ism.

Some would have it that Jesus only suffered on the cross, But wasn’t under God’s wrath, he wasn’t crushed, abandoned, treated like a criminal, no sins were laid on him. But just suffered a bit, after all someone had to.

The angels of this situation must have thought, why would the Father according to the divine plan have him treated like a criminal, crushed and crucified while all the while no imputation of sin on him, but was totally holy and righteous.

Not only do I see confusion of the arminians, but if their doctrines were true the angels would be even more confused.

The whole notion of 'plan B' is repugnant to reason, if God is First Cause.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Arminians must believe, to be consistent, that God made a mistake somewhere in the creation of man. A big mistake, because He lost mankind when Adam sinned.
Because of loosing man, all He can do now is try to get them all back by sending His Son to die for all their sins in hopes they will all believe and return.
Even though He knows not everyone will believe He still hopes to save them all.

Makes me wonder, when God decided on the redemption of mankind, we’re the angels doubting Him as far as completing the task?
Were they also hoping the plan would be successful?
Were they confused when people denied Christ and died in their sins?

The angels watched the crucifixion of Jesus, being under God’s wrath and dying to save the lost. Yet many are not going to be saved.

If Arminianism were true, it must be extremely disturbing and great confusion among the angels knowing that Christ not only died for many who go to hell but seeing “Jesus also interceding for them to the Father and getting no where.”
I would have to wonder while Christ is interceding on behalf of a sinner, if the angels are curious of the outcome. I wonder if some thought God the Son wont get anywhere today, or will he?

They would have to be even more confused knowing unbelief is a sin that Christ died for also.
And since many don’t believe, that particular sin just couldn’t be covered because these will go to hell.

Since he died for all sins, he died for the sin of unbelief also.

Since that be the case, why did Jesus say to only one thief, “today you shall be with me in paradise.” Why didn’t he say, “today you both will be with me in paradise?”
Also, this one passage alone totally destroys the forbidden topic of Uni-ism.

Some would have it that Jesus only suffered on the cross, But wasn’t under God’s wrath, he wasn’t crushed, abandoned, treated like a criminal, no sins were laid on him. But just suffered a bit, after all someone had to.

The angels of this situation must have thought, why would the Father according to the divine plan have him treated like a criminal, crushed and crucified while all the while no imputation of sin on him, but was totally holy and righteous.

Not only do I see confusion of the arminians, but if their doctrines were true the angels would be even more confused.

There is no doubt that Jesus died for the whole world's sins. Depending upon one's interpretation and verse selection of the scriptures a good argument can be made that God knew the outcome of every sinner to be born on this mortal coil before they existed. There is no doubt that God would that all men come to repentance and be saved. These facts seem to be contradictive and mutually exclusive. How can an almighty God desire that all men be saved and yet all men are not saved?

I think the answer lies in the difference between God's all-knowing view and man's limited view. If God simply chose certain people to be saved and certain to be lost, then the devil could accuse him of partiality and creating unfair laws that could not be kept. Thus God made it to rain on the just and the unjust. His spirit had a hardening effect on the proud but softened the humble. He knew which was which but His creation did not.

From God's all-seeing view, He came to die for the humble and those who would be humbled before him. He knew who He died for and He knew that not one would be lost. But from man's and perhaps even the angle's perspective they did not. But they did witness God offering salvation to all, dying for not only our sins but the sins of the whole world. They saw that God offered eternal life to all who would believe in His son. The biggest obstacle to that was intracted pride but the still the same light shined in the darkness sadly people loved the darkness more than light for their deeds were evil. God's grace reveals the hearts of men.

 

[Mr GLee]

There is no doubt that Jesus died for the whole world's sins. Depending upon one's interpretation and verse selection of the scriptures a good argument can be made that God knew the outcome of every sinner to be born on this mortal coil before they existed. There is no doubt that God would that all men come to repentance and be saved. These facts seem to be contradictive and mutually exclusive. How can an almighty God desire that all men be saved and yet all men are not saved?

Yes the sins of the whole world not just sin the Jew . . .all the nations Satan could no longer deceive the whole word that God is a Jewish man as King of kings. he fell as recorded in Revelation 20. He will again be released to device the whole world in that way then the end.

The all men are .All of those elected from the foundation a remnant saved . or as many as the father gave to the Son

 

[CrowCross]

How can an almighty God desire that all men be saved and yet all men are not saved?

Justice?

 

[Arial]

If God simply chose certain people to be saved and certain to be lost, then the devil could accuse him of partiality and creating unfair laws that could not be kept. Thus God made it to rain on the just and the unjust. His spirit had a hardening effect on the proud but softened the humble. He knew which was which but His creation did not.

This fails to consider what God says about Himself as the I AM, and all that is contained in that name. It has God determining what He does based on what Satan will think of it. Therefore it is really the devil who is determining what God does. This defies what God says about Himself to Job in the last chapters of that book, and what He shows us in the first chapter of Job in the interaction between God and the devil.

The more consistent approach would be to examine more closely the application of "whole world", and "all men", within the full context of where they are used and the final outcome of salvation as it affects creation, keeping in mind who God reveals Himself to be. Rather than trying to figure it out through our presumptions. IOW solve the seeming paradox through the lens of who God is, instead of through the lens of man. Top down instead of bottom up.

 

[makesends]

There is no doubt that Jesus died for the whole world's sins. Depending upon one's interpretation and verse selection of the scriptures a good argument can be made that God knew the outcome of every sinner to be born on this mortal coil before they existed. There is no doubt that God would that all men come to repentance and be saved. These facts seem to be contradictive and mutually exclusive. How can an almighty God desire that all men be saved and yet all men are not saved?

I think the answer lies in the difference between God's all-knowing view and man's limited view. If God simply chose certain people to be saved and certain to be lost, then the devil could accuse him of partiality and creating unfair laws that could not be kept. Thus God made it to rain on the just and the unjust. His spirit had a hardening effect on the proud but softened the humble. He knew which was which but His creation did not.

From God's all-seeing view, He came to die for the humble and those who would be humbled before him. He knew who He died for and He knew that not one would be lost. But from man's and perhaps even the angle's perspective they did not. But they did witness God offering salvation to all, dying for not only our sins but the sins of the whole world. They saw that God offered eternal life to all who would believe in His son. The biggest obstacle to that was intracted pride but the still the same light shined in the darkness sadly people loved the darkness more than light for their deeds were evil. God's grace reveals the hearts of men.

You make God sound like a human. Even the devil knows better than that anthropomorphism. There is no unfairness in God making creatures for whatever end, neverminding even that he has the right to make creatures for whatever use. He OWNS us. We do not deserve his respect, even apart from our rebellion. Partiality is not an accusation, but a crediting. God is very partial, being merciful to those unworthy ones he chose and created for that purpose, for the sake of his own glory. He shows mercy for his own reasons, and not because anybody deserved it.

 

[Arial]

There is no doubt that Jesus died for the whole world's sins.

Not only is there doubt, but there is proof in what God says. In one place, Ex 34: 6-7, The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin" and in the next breath, "but who will by no means clear the guilty---" It is God doing according to His will, not man's, from beginning to end. Verses that are at first not clear can be clarified by places where the same thing is clear. If everyone is not saved, then Jesus did not intend to pay for the sins of every individual of all time. God never fails. Trying to satisfy "He died for the sins of the whole world," by determining what one would consider fair, and just, and what they consider to be the character of God as only one dimensional---love, compassion, justice and from a completely human, limited perspective, does not actually resolve this issue. You merely come up with a convoluted explanation that still has God wanting to save everyone and being unable to because He has made the sacrifice of His Son dependent on the fallen, sinful, rebellious nature of man. He would send His Son to suffer and die knowing only a remnant would benefit from the sacrifice.

Saying that God gave enough grace to everyone so that they were able either accept or reject the gospel, (which the Bible nowhere says)would mean that Christ was not a ransom, was not reconciliation, not propitiation, and not substitution---all leading to justification of the believer,--- that was actually accomplished on the cross, but only potentially. It would mean that God did something at great cost, the greatest cost of all, and did it without intent. Without a clear purpose and direction in the efficacy of Christ's work. And it would be the only place where we ever see God acting in that manner in the entire Bible. The most crucial place of all.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Not only is there doubt, but there is proof in what God says. In one place, Ex 34: 6-7, The Lord passed before him and proclaimed, "The Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin" and in the next breath, "but who will by no means clear the guilty---" It is God doing according to His will, not man's, from beginning to end. Verses that are at first not clear can be clarified by places where the same thing is clear. If everyone is not saved, then Jesus did not intend to pay for the sins of every individual of all time. God never fails. Trying to satisfy "He died for the sins of the whole world," by determining what one would consider fair, and just, and what they consider to be the character of God as only one dimensional---love, compassion, justice and from a completely human, limited perspective, does not actually resolve this issue. You merely come up with a convoluted explanation that still has God wanting to save everyone and being unable to because He has made the sacrifice of His Son dependent on the fallen, sinful, rebellious nature of man. He would send His Son to suffer and die knowing only a remnant would benefit from the sacrifice.

I simply read in my bible in John 1:22 that "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." Reading a little further on in 1 John 4:14, I see this, "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world." In his gospel, John wrote in the first chapter verse 29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" Therefore I believe what is written.

Saying that God gave enough grace to everyone so that they were able either accept or reject the gospel, (which the Bible nowhere says)would mean that Christ was not a ransom, was not reconciliation, not propitiation, and not substitution---all leading to justification of the believer,--- that was actually accomplished on the cross, but only potentially. It would mean that God did something at great cost, the greatest cost of all, and did it without intent. Without a clear purpose and direction in the efficacy of Christ's work. And it would be the only place where we ever see God acting in that manner in the entire Bible. The most crucial place of all.

I don't see how you have come to this conclusion. Christ's sacrifice was infinite as He is and it provided grace enough for every living soul to be saved. If we use the Old Testament to define God we will run into several contradictions about his nature. Things such as His repentance, His anger, and His need to come down to see the city that men had built so we can't use the OT to prove one point while dismissing what the rest of it has to say about the nature of God. Although I would disagree, a person can make a case for God's limited omniscience using Old Testament texts. The point being that we cannot use it as an authority on the nature of God when Christ had not yet come to reveal the father to mankind.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

You make God sound like a human. Even the devil knows better than that anthropomorphism. There is no unfairness in God making creatures for whatever end, neverminding even that he has the right to make creatures for whatever use. He OWNS us. We do not deserve his respect, even apart from our rebellion. Partiality is not an accusation, but a crediting. God is very partial, being merciful to those unworthy ones he chose and created for that purpose, for the sake of his own glory. He shows mercy for his own reasons, and not because anybody deserved it.

God's mercy is extended to all, but only those who accept it, receive it. This post makes God out to be a despot and can do so because who is going to stop Him. That is not God who is love.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

This fails to consider what God says about Himself as the I AM, and all that is contained in that name. It has God determining what He does based on what Satan will think of it. Therefore it is really the devil who is determining what God does. This defies what God says about Himself to Job in the last chapters of that book, and what He shows us in the first chapter of Job in the interaction between God and the devil.

If God did not care what His creation thought of Him, He could have simply strong-armed satan and destroyed him the moment Satan lifted his heel against Him. God loved His creation and He loved the free-will choice He gave them. Otherwise, He could have created us without the ability to sin. It was all in His hand. The belief that God plunged this planet into such misery and sorrow to glorify Himself in some way is too bazaar. Carried to its logical conclusion it lays the blame for sin at the feet of God. How could an all-powerful God creae a being who was defective and brought sin and death into this world?

The more consistent approach would be to examine more closely the application of "whole world", and "all men", within the full context of where they are used and the final outcome of salvation as it affects creation, keeping in mind who God reveals Himself to be. Rather than trying to figure it out through our presumptions. IOW solve the seeming paradox through the lens of who God is, instead of through the lens of man. Top down instead of bottom up.

I think that is called rationalizing.

 

[Mercy_Shown]

Justice?

How can it be justice when the creator of the sin was ultimately God who created the beings that brought it into the world.

 

[Arial]

If God did not care what His creation thought of Him, He could have simply strong-armed satan and destroyed him the moment Satan lifted his heel against Him.

God demands His creatures to worship and obey Him and to trust Him. That comes from His being the Creator and perfect in all His ways and making us in His image and likeness. No person can tell God who He is, what He thinks, what He could have or should have done. Neither can they say why He does anything unless He tells us, and He tells us next to nothing about what went on in eternity when things were created, but us and our world was not. Think bigger. Think God.

God loved His creation and He loved the free-will choice He gave them.

He created us free of sin, with a will that could freely make choices, and when given a command, it was man who disobeyed that command. So you could rightly say, it was free will that got us into this mess, and it is a will that freely chooses sin that makes us His enemies and He ours, and this same will, driven by our nature as it is, that keeps us out of His kingdom.

Define what you mean by free will.

Otherwise, He could have created us without the ability to sin. It was all in His hand. The belief that God plunged this planet into such misery and sorrow to glorify Himself in some way is too bazaar. Carried to its logical conclusion it lays the blame for sin at the feet of God.

You realize that this says that since God could have made us different and He didn't, it is all His fault. Interesting, that free will is seen as such a precious commodity when it comes to whether we choose to be saved or not, and one God loves and will not violate, but when it comes to our responsibility, it is not our fault but God's. God is the one who says it is all for His glory. But He is not the one who plunged us into this misery and sorrow. I am sure you have taught your own children to take responsibility for their actions.

The Bible tells us to set our eyes on what is to come and that the suffering of this age is as nothing compared to the glory to come. In the beginning, God created us mortal (able to die) and corruptible but not corrupt. Those in Christ are a new creation. Our flesh will still die but it will be raised to life----immortal ( unable to die) and incorruptible. There will be a new heaven and a new earth. No sin, no sorrow, no grief, no loss, no evil not even a shadow of it, and even the lion will lie down with the lamb. Creation will no longer be subject to decay. (Romans 8) And we will dwell with God and He with us. It will be better than Eden. God is destroying the devil and evil. Destroying them forever. This is like an interim creation. As to why God did it the way He is doing it, and why the thousands of years, that we do not know, and have no right to question. I know this much, while we wait for the Savior to return, Jesus is gathering His flock to Him---astonishingly enough through redeemed men spreading the gospel far and wide. They hear His voice, He knows them, they follow Him. And when the last lambs are pulled from the rocky cliff, and all the Father has given Him have entered the fold, then Christ will return.

I think that is called rationalizing.

No, not rationalizing. Reasoning logically and biblically.

 

[CrowCross]

How can it be justice when the creator of the sin was ultimately God who created the beings that brought it into the world.

Kind of a BOLD statement.

God created sin? Because He made A&E and Lucifer....God is guilty of creating sin???

Now, you asked..."How can an almighty God desire that all men be saved and yet all men are not saved?"

I responded with justice. As an example...a single mother of 4 little kids might be on her way to prison....The Judge found her guilty of her grievous crime and justice requires the Judge sentence her. ......The Judge may not have desired her to go to jail....but justice did.

 

[Carbon]

There is no doubt that Jesus died for the whole world's sins.

I don't believe that. And I think you would come up empty trying to prove it from scripture.

Depending upon one's interpretation and verse selection of the scriptures a good argument can be made that God knew the outcome of every sinner to be born on this mortal coil before they existed.

Of course. God is not subject to time, He sees the beginning and the end.

There is no doubt that God would that all men come to repentance and be saved.

No doubt, really? If that were the case all would be saved. Besides that, do you believe man to be some super being able to save himself?

These facts seem to be contradictive and mutually exclusive. How can an almighty God desire that all men be saved and yet all men are not saved?

Because all does not mean all of Adams's posterity.

I think the answer lies in the difference between God's all-knowing view and man's limited view. If God simply chose certain people to be saved and certain to be lost, then the devil could accuse him of partiality and creating unfair laws that could not be kept.

The devil is God's devil, he is not God's opposite, and he is not on equal ground. Also, the devel is delusional. All his accusations directed to God Almighty mean nothing and amount to nothing.

Thus God made it to rain on the just and the unjust. His spirit had a hardening effect on the proud but softened the humble. He knew which was which but His creation did not.

Huh? The Spirit hardened the proud, and softened the humble? Do you know what original sin is? everyone is born dead spiritually. None seek God, not even one, we have all gone astray from birth. the fall was so radical that scripture says God repented and was sorry for creating man. And there was only one man who was born sinless.
As far as God goes, there is no man born seeking God, all are arrogant, proud God haters.

From God's all-seeing view, He came to die for the humble and those who would be humbled before him.

There were no humbled. Are you a Pelagian? Just cuirious.

He knew who He died for and He knew that not one would be lost.

Yes, all those who were given him by the Father. And he will loose none.

But from man's and perhaps even the angle's perspective they did not.

How much power do you give man?

But they did witness God offering salvation to all, dying for not only our sins but the sins of the whole world.

If Jesus died for all of everyone's sines, all would without a doubt be saved.

They saw that God offered eternal life to all who would believe in His son.

Salvation is not an offer.

The biggest obstacle to that was intracted pride but the still the same light shined in the darkness sadly people loved the darkness more than light for their deeds were evil. God's grace reveals the hearts of men.

It was a radical fall indeed.

 

[Carbon]

Yes the sins of the whole world not just sin the Jew . . .all the nations Satan could no longer deceive the whole word that God is a Jewish man as King of kings. he fell as recorded in Revelation 20. He will again be released to device the whole world in that way then the end.

The all men are .All of those elected from the foundation a remnant saved . or as many as the father gave to the Son

Interesting.

Ask it of Me, and I will certainly give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth as Your possession. Psalm 2:8.

Compare, Rev 20

Satan has been bound as Rev 20 teaches. The gospel goes out to all nations, no longer just the Jews.

 

[Carbon]

God's mercy is extended to all, but only those who accept it, receive it.

As far as the rain falling on the good and the evil, yes. But the grace you are talking about is not biblical. Christ didn't die hoping by his death he would save someone. It wasn't a probably atonement. God is not a nail-biter.

This post makes God out to be a despot and can do so because who is going to stop Him. That is not God who is love.

Love is one of God's attributes, along with Justice etc...

 

[Carbon]

If God did not care what His creation thought of Him, He could have simply strong-armed satan and destroyed him the moment Satan lifted his heel against Him.

Satan is God's devil, he is fulfilling his purpose. his time will come.

God loved His creation and He loved the free-will choice He gave them.

He did not give them free will choice to save themselves.

Otherwise, He could have created us without the ability to sin.

What's your reasoning?
God's will, plan, and glory mean nothing to you?

It was all in His hand.

Now you're contradicting yourself.

The belief that God plunged this planet into such misery and sorrow to glorify Himself in some way is too bazaar.

Wow. What a horrible way to think about God's plan for his chosen ones..

Carried to its logical conclusion it lays the blame for sin at the feet of God. How could an all-powerful God creae a being who was defective and brought sin and death into this world?

I think that is called rationalizing.

 

[Carbon]

God loved His creation and He loved the free-will choice He gave them.

God requires what sinners cannot perform. But, you say they can.

But if God did not require what sinners cannot perform, then they would have no need for Christ the Saviour to fulfill all righteousness for them or even for the Holy Spirit to work holiness in them.

And if you say that God cannot justly require sinners to perform that obedience which they cannot perform, you undermind both the law and the gospel. Because that is exactly what God requires.

 

[Carbon]

God requires what sinners cannot perform. But, you say they can.

But if God did not require what sinners cannot perform, then they would have no need for Christ the Saviour to fulfill all righteousness for them or even for the Holy Spirit to work holiness in them.

And if you say that God cannot justly require sinners to perform that obedience which they cannot perform, you undermind both the law and the gospel. Because that is exactly what God requires.

@Mercy_Shown

Think about this for a moment. If God required only what people could do for themselves, then all that He does for them in Jesus would be unnecessary, and Think about this, God did not give the commandments to man after the fall with the expectation that we would be able to keep them. .