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The powerless Arminian Jesus

You believe God controls everything, right? Even the choosing of who will be saved and who will not, correct. You believe that He is the creator of all, right?

You believe that he created those who are lost as a potter might create a pot for destruction. Who then is responsible for the evil that this causes? Am I not responsible for the damage my pit bull does to my neighbor if I let the dog loose in the neighborhood?
"Who then is responsible for the evil that [WHAT] causes?" What are you referring to by "this" in 'the evil that this causes'? Does the fact that he created those who are lost cause evil, or the fact that I believe (that he created those) causes evil, or something else causes evil?

It would help me if you were a little more specific in your terms. What exactly do you mean by "responsible for"? Who are the 'lost', you refer to in "he created those who are lost"? —those forever lost, reprobate? or all the lost including those to become saved? does 'the lost' include the elect before they are born again?
 
"Who then is responsible for the evil that [WHAT] causes?" What are you referring to by "this" in 'the evil that this causes'? Does the fact that he created those who are lost cause evil, or the fact that I believe (that he created those) causes evil, or something else causes evil?

It would help me if you were a little more specific in your terms. What exactly do you mean by "responsible for"? Who are the 'lost', you refer to in "he created those who are lost"? —those forever lost, reprobate? or all the lost including those to become saved? does 'the lost' include the elect before they are born again?
Do you believe that there is anything existing that God did not create?

I would assume not. So then the class of people who God created and yet denied His grace will still be held accountable for violating His laws. Laws that were too difficult for any human to obey. Further more the pain and suffering they commit and the atrocities they instigate are coming from creatures God created knowing full well what they would do without his irresistible Grace.
 
Kind of a BOLD statement.

God created sin? Because He made A&E and Lucifer....God is guilty of creating sin???
If I apply the doctrine of irresistible Grace, then yes. Was the devil God’s devil? Certainly almighty God could have put his irresistible Grace on Lucifer. He could have put it on all creatures. If I create a fire that I know will burn down a forest am I guiltless?
Now, you asked..."How can an almighty God desire that all men be saved and yet all men are not saved?"

I responded with justice. As an example...a single mother of 4 little kids might be on her way to prison....The Judge found her guilty of her grievous crime and justice requires the Judge sentence her. ......The Judge may not have desired her to go to jail....but justice did.
 
God demands His creatures to worship and obey Him and to trust Him. That comes from His being the Creator and perfect in all His ways and making us in His image and likeness. No person can tell God who He is, what He thinks, what He could have or should have done. Neither can they say why He does anything unless He tells us, and He tells us next to nothing about what went on in eternity when things were created, but us and our world was not. Think bigger. Think God.
This is precisely why I do not see the doctorine of irresistible grace in the Bible. I do not see God choosing a specific group of people to save while leaving other people to damnation over rules they could not keep.

The responsibility for sin falls up on the shoulders of those who commit it because they have free will because they had a choice. It does not fall upon our holy God who is love.

Romans1:19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
 
He created us free of sin, with a will that could freely make choices, and when given a command, it was man who disobeyed that command. So you could rightly say, it was free will that got us into this mess, and it is a will that freely chooses sin that makes us His enemies and He ours, and this same will, driven by our nature as it is, that keeps us out of His kingdom.

Define what you mean by free will.
Free will, in this instance, means that God God enlightens every person with the knowledge of Himself so that each person makes an informed choice whether to resist Him or submit to him.

“since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.“
 
Now, you asked..."How can an almighty God desire that all men be saved and yet all men are not saved?"

I responded with justice. As an example...a single mother of 4 little kids might be on her way to prison....The Judge found her guilty of her grievous crime and justice requires the Judge sentence her. ......The Judge may not have desired her to go to jail....but justice did.
This analogy does not address irresistible grace or the idea that God’s laws are not possible for humans to keep.
 
I simply read in my bible in John 1:22 that "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." Reading a little further on in 1 John 4:14, I see this, "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world." In his gospel, John wrote in the first chapter verse 29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" Therefore I believe what is written.
He is taking away the sin of the world. See post above. That does not mean every individual. If it did, universalism would be true and no one would be lost. There is an active thread, Partial LA, in the Calvinism @ Arminianism board that deals with that scripture and this subject that you might find interesting. There are other views on the 1 John 4:2 scripture. And the one I give above is not my only reasoning.
Christ's sacrifice was infinite as He is and it provided grace enough for every living soul to be saved.
It could have but it was not intended to and it didn't. All through Scripture we see the atonement being for specific people. The "called" (start noticing all the places that is used within the writing of the apostles, often in the greeting portion. We tend to slip right over it.) "the elect","the chosen", "His sheep" "those God gives Him", "adopted." It is specific.
If we use the Old Testament to define God we will run into several contradictions about his nature.
They are not contradictions. If they are, then God is contradictory within Himself. Even though God is love, that does not mean that He loves sin or evil. Even though He is compassionate and full of loving kindness, that does mean He will not uphold His own law that says if you sin you die. Even though He is merciful He has common mercy and kindness to creation, bringing rain to the righteous and the wicked. His common mercy is what keeps the universe running faithfully, providing food for man and animal alike etc. He has a personal mercy, love, faithfulness, kindness, patience etc. for His covenant people. A love and mercy that gives them to Christ, and saves them from facing His wrath. When the Bible says He shows no favoritism, it is referring to the Jew and Gentile division. Both are saved and in the same way. It does not mean that He treats all people equally. All the unbelieving will face His wrath, and justly so.
Things such as His repentance, His anger, and His need to come down to see the city that men had built so we can't use the OT to prove one point while dismissing what the rest of it has to say about the nature of God.
Well those things are not about the nature of God. And if they were then He had no business for example telling us what He tells Job in the last chapters of the book. Or what He tells us is the Prophets about Himself. And if that is true, we might as well toss the whole book aside as we could never know when He might change His mind. Those places that you mention are the limitations of human language conveying what is unseen by what happens that we can see. It is what it looks like to us.
 
Free will, in this instance, means that God God enlightens every person with the knowledge of Himself so that each person makes an informed choice whether to resist Him or submit to him.
Did this happen at the cross---death, resurrection, ascension---or does it happen in each individual at the point when God enlightens them?
“since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.“
That quote from Romans 1 is dealing with the condition of all mankind, and what is made known is His existence by what we see in our visible world. His wrath against ungodliness and unrighteousness, and His attributes--His eternal power and divine nature. This can be seen and so we have no excuse. Verses 18-23.It says nothing about salvation or about God enlightening all people to be able to choose Christ. It actually says the opposite.
 
@Mercy_Shown

I simply read in my bible in John 1:22 that "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." Reading a little further on in 1 John 4:14, I see this, "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world." In his gospel, John wrote in the first chapter verse 29, "The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" Therefore I believe what is written.

But do you understand those scriptures ?
 
Then why did He repeatedly visit punishment upon them for their failure to obey when He full well knew that they couldn’t?
Because of the fall and original sin does not release us from obligation, we are still responsible.
Would it not be cruel of me to set standards that my children cannot keep and then punish them for not keeping them?
You’re not God. Why would you use yourself as a reference to judge how God should be?
 
Did this happen at the cross---death, resurrection, ascension---or does it happen in each individual at the point when God enlightens them?
That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world. John 1:9 Since those lost have no excuse it indicates that God has given them the same Grace, opportunities, and choices He has given the saved or else they could claim, "you are punishing us for laws that are impossible to keep."

I can't imagine being born in sin unable to meet the standards of God because it is impossible for me to do so and then being eternally punished for it.
That quote from Romans 1 is dealing with the condition of all mankind, and what is made known is His existence by what we see in our visible world. His wrath against ungodliness and unrighteousness, and His attributes--His eternal power and divine nature. This can be seen and so we have no excuse. Verses 18-23.It says nothing about salvation or about God enlightening all people to be able to choose Christ. It actually says the opposite.
But the bible does not say that at all. It is pretty straightforward. It states that men are without excuse for rejecting God. And the results are deeper and deeper ignorance and darkness. Men cannot say, "well, your laws were impossible to keep." Or "You never gave me any Grace." On the face of it, to plunge a man into hell for all eternity when there was no way he could meet the standards God set is not what He would do. Any earthly parent who punished their children for failing to meet impossible standards would rightfully be deemed a bad parent.

Each person will clearly see that the judgements against them were more than fair and totally deserved because they refuse to submit to God's Grace or as the bible puts it. "Humble themselves in the sight of the Lord."
 
God does require perfection from them. Absolute perfection even as the father is perfect. But, he also offers that perfection to all those who believe in him. It is not a question as to whether God imputes righteousness to those who believe in him but it is a question of whether or not he pre-chooses certain people to receive that perfection While others are left in their sin and punished for committing deeds they cannot help but commit.
Offers? Why do you keep saying God offers. God does not offer eternal life in Christ.
I’m sorry you do not like God and His ways.

But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Roman’s 9:20.
 
If Satan is God’s devil then all the evil devil does and all the pain and suffering and sorrow that he puts up on this earth also belongs to God. In essence this doctrine teaches that God is the author of evil as well as good.
You think the devil is the opposite of God? That he’s all powerful and does as he pleases?
The devil is just a pawn.
 
He did not, because they could not. But he did give them free will choice to accept and believe in Jesus Christ who is eternal life.
They have free will to accept and believe in Jesus unto salvation?
Then they do have free will to save themselves.

Man cannot believe unto salvation by a free will, if that were so, not only would we find that teaching in scripture but we also wouldn’t need Jesus.
 
How is creating a sinful planet with pain and suffering bringing him glory? What glory does he get for plunging the world into sin and then choosing a few out of it too put irresistible grace upon.
First. What did God say of His creation when He was done? He called it good.
God does not call evil (sin) good. You’re way out of line.
Since God is all powerful and all knowing we must assume that he knew full well the misery and pain and suffering that was about to happen if he created the world the way he did. And yet, he did it anyway.
Do you believe God does not know the future? As time goes on it’s all new news to Him?
I do believe there are some very deep reasons as to why he did but I don’t believe that it had much to do with the teachings of Calvinism.
Well here we go. You finally spit out the issue. “Calvinism!”
 
Because of the fall and original sin does not release us from obligation, we are still responsible.
If a child were born with fetal alcohol syndrome because of their mothers drinking which left them with learning and memory problems, problems understanding and following directions, controlling emotions and impulsivity, poor communication and social skills, depression, and anxiety not to mention performing daily life skills, including feeding, bathing, counting money, telling time, and minding personal safety that I should still demand of them the same standard of behavior as a normal healthy child?

How can one be held responsible for a standard that they cannot meet? Is this not why Christ died and imputed His righteousness to us? Did not the cross turn everything upside down so that it takes work to earn the wage of death but eternal life is a gift? SInce Jesus died for the sins of the whole world as John states, who will be lost because of their sins? Does Jesus fix the reason for the verdict on a person's sins? John 3:19 says no, it is based on what they love. Jesus also says it is based on who knows them and who they know.
You’re not God. Why would you use yourself as a reference to judge how God should be?
I do not judge God. I judge the version of God that Calvinism presents.
 
Not if you listen carefully to what I’m saying. It is only God’s power that saves any of us for we cannot save ourselves. Once Adam and Eve made the choice to step out of God’s lifestream, we were all dead. We were dead at birth. But God made us alive when we were yet dead. There is no question that that is what the Bible teaches. Where a part ways with John Calvin is his teaching that this was then forced upon us by an irresistible grace.
If you think salvation is forced on anyone by irresistible grace, you surely do not understand grace. Not enough to get buy anyway.

Wow 🙁
We were made alive but a living person can choose to die where is a dead person cannot choose to live.
Looks like you’re reading something from a different bible. Would you try to look your beliefs up in scripture and post its teaching?
Thanks
 
It’s not a horrible way to think about God’s plan for his unchosen ones. The ones that he created with his own word and yet left in their misery and squalor to suffer eternal destruction at his hands for not obeying his impossible to keep laws.
Who are you to judge God?
 
They have free will to accept and believe in Jesus unto salvation?
Then they do have free will to save themselves.
This is not logical. If a man submits to his rescuers, he is not saving himself. If a drowning sailor allows the rescue swimmer to place him in the litter, he is not saving himself.
Man cannot believe unto salvation by a free will, if that were so, not only would we find that teaching in scripture but we also wouldn’t need Jesus.
If God brings light to any man, then by God's power that man can choose. Some choose to submit while others love the darkness.
 
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