Consistent Hermeneutics: Calvinism vs Arminianism

[Arial]

It will remain meaningless as long as you refuse what would give what I am telling you about, its meaning...

I am not refusing it. You have set up terms that I must meet before you give it to me-----an exegesis of Job 1 and 2---which I never asked for in the first place. I simply ask if you could or would worship that God. You seem to think that those chapters need an exegesis that would allow you to worship Him as presented in plain language. The terms you set up are unacceptable to me. It is you refusing to tell me unless I do as you say. And it makes no difference to me one way or the other. The question I asked YOU can be answered with yes or no and has not one whit to do with your pastor.

 

[Arial]

Oxymoronic!

Show me a man that knows (Spiritual Knowledge) with a 100% certainty that redemption is through Christ alone, who would choose to burn in hell.
Impossible!

@GeneZ does not seem to understand that the faith that believes (Eph 2)as a gift from God and by His grace, actually has saving content. And that if it is given to you then you do believe, and if you do believe you do not decide not to believe what you do believe.

I have pointed this out to him and asked him about it at least twice, days and days ago, and he still has not even addressed that issue.

 

[Arial]

You can always create a new email account to keep your regular one private.
I have such an extra account to keep my regular one alone.

You seemed to be asking for qualifications?
Or, condemning him before giving him a fair hearing?

The more you insist on attaining private access and only answering my question privately away from the forum the more suspicious I become.

When and how did this become me asking for qualifications? Or condemning him---which I can only assume you mean your pastor? or someone else? without a fair hearing. I am condemning no one and have no interest in doing so. I think this is just more of the typical deflection away from the simple question I ask by making it about me, the poster. I have no interest in knowing who your pastor is and see no reason why I should know. I ask you a question. Could/would you worship God as we see Him in the first two chapters of Job? And here we are now, how many days later, embroiled in personal accusations made by you, demands made to release the information I never asked for, and the question still not being answered.

I have no idea how you got all that from the little I said.

Because of what you did say.

You keep jumping to conclusions without warrant.

Since when did questions become conclusions?

You are also in my opinion refusing the best way for one to find out for yourself, first hand.

Find out what? You offered to give me someone else's exegesis of Job 1 and 2. When did I ever ask for that. You offered to reveal who your pastor is as though it is some secret that cannot be disclosed on the open forum. When did I ever ask for that? And you are making demands that are unacceptable to me, as though you held this information I did not ask for and have no interest in, hostage. And have produced post after post of inflammatory statements against me since. But you still have not answered the question.

Could/would you worship God as we see Him in Job 1 and 2? That too seems to be secret information that cannot be disclosed.

 

[Mr GLee]

There is a communication gap here.

Of course sins were an issue in salvation.
Of course they were.
But, they are not "the" issue now in being saved.

When it comes down to salvation?

Are we told to stop sinning and be saved?
Or, are we told to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved?

Are we told to do good deeds and be saved?
Or, are we told to believe in Jesus Christ to be saved?

Because of the unlimited atonement of the Cross God made us free to give the Gospel to every man.
Not only to give the Gospel to a designated select group of people.
For men's sins are not what is keeping them from Heaven.
Its their unbelief in Christ that sends people to Hell.

If unlimited atonement were not a reality?
We would not have been told to preach the Gospel to all men.
There would be some different system which we do not have.

How does sin affect us now living in a body of death? Is it fulfilling the appointment to die once?

He empowers us to do His good deeds . (Philippian 2:13) Yoked with him our daily burdens of sufferings the pangs of hell is made lighter

As apostles we can plant the incorruptible born again seed and another water it with the water of the word the doctrine that fall like rain or dew upon the heart of dying mankind bringing new life .

But we world never accredit those moved by the holy Spirit in respect to their dying bodies of sin .

We preach the Spirt of Christ alone does all the teaching and bringing to our new minds the previous things he has taught.

Remember God is not served by the dying hands of mankind . He has no needs but satisfies all .He can use a unbeliever to preach the gospel just a easily as one that does believe He is a anchor to new souls

1 Corinthians 3: 6-11 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

He repeated it twice to emphasize the law. God alone can cause any increase we are not to elevate venerate the apostles above all things writen in the law and prophet (sola scriptura)

 

[GeneZ]

The gospel is about being set free from sin and rejection, and that it can only be achieved through the work of Jesus Christ the God-Man.

Man knows there is a God, but is content in his/her sin until conviction that Jesus Christ is LORD through the power of the Holy Spirit brings them to repentance.

Knowing about sin, and that you sin does not benefit you without the work of the Holy Spirit.

I was trying to show you the difference between what an unbeliever can know about himself and God *before* regeneration, and what he can not comprehend until after he becomes a new creation in Christ.

A.) He can know he is a sinner.
B.) He can be told that Jesus died on the Cross for his sins.

The unregenerate can not know spiritual phenomena that the born again person has the ability to.

But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings ​

and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of ​

knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] ​

because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated." 1 Cor 2:14​

In contrast to what the believer can learn, the Gospel message is about what the natural can know about himself.
For one does not need to be regenerate to know that he sins. It is not spiritual phenomena. It is natural phenomena.

The Gospel message does not say one must believe in the Trinity of God and the Deity of Christ to be saved.

in Christ....

 

[GeneZ]

The more you insist on attaining private access and only answering my question privately away from the forum the more suspicious I become.

Then I'll stop.

 

[Arial]

Then I'll stop.

But are you going to answer the question? Would/could you worship God as we see Him in Job chapters 1 and 2. There is no good reason I can see that has to be answered privately.

 

[Arial]

Then I'll stop.

You are very selective about what parts of a post you respond to.

 

[GeneZ]

You are very selective about what parts of a post you respond to.

Because I wish to only concentrate on one issue at a time with as much depth that is reasonable.
Not to scatter, which answering too many questions at once causes.

 

[GeneZ]

But are you going to answer the question? Would/could you worship God as we see Him in Job chapters 1 and 2. There is no good reason I can see that has to be answered privately.

I had no intention to answer privately that way..
Rather, I wanted to show you a source that richly expounds upon what those chapters contain.

And, another problem you present. How do you see the worship of God? Let alone in Job 1 and 2.

Job went through undeserved suffering caused by Satan asked for, and was given permission by the Lord to test Job with suffering.

And, the Lord was to prove Satan's presumption about Job to be wrong.

Job 1:9-12​

​

‘Does Job fear God for nothing?’ Satan replied. ‘Have you not put a hedge around him and his household ​

and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread ​

throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse ​

you to your face.’​

​

The Lord said to Satan, ‘Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not ​

lay a finger.’​

​

Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord."​

The question that is not often asked?

Why was Satan having that to be such an important concern?
To get Job to curse the Lord for his suffering?

And... Why should that even begin to an issue between Satan and the Lord?
That the Lord would allow for it?

What was the real major issue going on between Satan and the Lord?
Satan wanted Job to be used to prove a point.


grace and peace ...........

 

[Arial]

I had no intention to answer privately that way..
Rather, I wanted to show you a source that richly expounds upon what those chapters contain.

And, another problem you present. How do you see the worship of God? Let alone in Job 1 and 2.

Job went through undeserved suffering caused by Satan asked for, and was given permission by the Lord to test Job with suffering.

And, the Lord was to prove Satan's presumption about Job to be wrong.

Job 1:9-12​

​

‘Does Job fear God for nothing?’ Satan replied. ‘Have you not put a hedge around him and his household ​

and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread ​

throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse ​

you to your face.’​

​

The Lord said to Satan, ‘Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not ​

lay a finger.’​

​

Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord."​

The question that is not often asked?

Why was Satan having that to be such an important concern?
To get Job to curse the Lord for his suffering?

And... Why should that even begin to an issue between Satan and the Lord?
That the Lord would allow for it?

What was the real major issue going on between Satan and the Lord?
Satan wanted Job to be used to prove a point.


grace and peace ...........

I will get to answering your questions in a bit as I believe it the proper thing to do to answer the scriptural questions that are asked of me. But even though you asked many of me, you did that instead of you answering mine. What is the problem with just answering it. What do the questions you asked me about the book of Job and God's motives and Satan's motives have to do with answering the question I asked you?

 

[Arial]

Because I wish to only concentrate on one issue at a time with as much depth that is reasonable.
Not to scatter, which answering too many questions at once causes.

 

[Arial]

I had no intention to answer privately that way..
Rather, I wanted to show you a source that richly expounds upon what those chapters contain.

I don't need it expounded on by someone I don't know and therefore cannot rely on. I will only get their opinion on it. I am perfectly capable of expounding upon it myself, and have to some degree. In fact the end of it played a huge role early in my sanctification. But it needs no expounding on to answer the question I asked, which concerned only the first two chapters. Could/would you worship God as we see Him there?

And, another problem you present. How do you see the worship of God? Let alone in Job 1 and 2.

How can you say it is a problem to my present and ask what it is at the same time?!

Just so you know what it is I will tell you even though common human decency would demand that you first answer my question to you. Could/would you worship God as we see Him in Job 1 and 2?

I worship God as He reveals Himself to us in the scriptures, whether it is to my liking or not. I understand that He is God, the Creator of everything, the sustainer of everything, the one who created me and as His creature creation I live and move and have my being in Him. He is King and I am servant. He is King and I am subject. I don't need to see Him other that who He is in order to worship Him. I am duty bound and pleased to worship Him as He is. I don't want to change Him. God as He is is the only God who can be trusted, all else is wishful thinking, and chasing after idols or the wind. I cannot trust in myself. and do not want to trust in myself. Thank God I don't have to trust in myself but can trust in every word that comes out of His mouth. Thank God my life is not in my own hands but in His, the true and faithful covenant God. I WILL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. I will worship no other. I will trust in no other but the God who reveals Himself in His word, no matter how I may feel about this or that. Yes I can and I do worship God as we see Him in Job 1 and 2. There is no other! I know this. He is holy and righteous and good and all His ways are perfect. He is not me, and I am not Him. He is Other. He is God.

Job went through undeserved suffering caused by Satan asked for, and was given permission by the Lord to test Job with suffering.

And, the Lord was to prove Satan's presumption about Job to be wrong.

What does that have to do with the question: Could/would you worship God as we see Him in Job 1 and 2?

Job 1:9-12‘Does Job fear God for nothing?’ Satan replied. ‘Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.’The Lord said to Satan, ‘Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.’Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord."

Oh look. You can quote scripture instead of answering the question: Could/ would you--------? Do you think for some reason I keep asking you that question and have not read that? Here is another question. Who brought Job to Satan's attention in the first place that prompted the above response?

The question that is not often asked?

Why was Satan having that to be such an important concern?
To get Job to curse the Lord for his suffering?

That question doesn't need to be asked. It is answered in those passages. And it is three questions. You know---many people end their sentences with an uprising inflection that makes it sound like a question when it is not. Why do so many of your non questions have question marks after them? In this case it makes it really hard to determine what is a question and what is a statement.

And... Why should that even begin to an issue between Satan and the Lord?

Since God does not give the answer to that question, we will never find it by speculating.

That the Lord would allow for it?

Is that a statement or a question. If it is a question, see above. Could/would you worship the God that we see in Job 1 and 2? Without having to find a way in which He is really not that way and trying to do so by supplying an answer to the unanswerable questions that softens the blow?

What was the real major issue going on between Satan and the Lord?
Satan wanted Job to be used to prove a point.

God is the one that brought it up, not Satan. And none of it changes what God said and did. Pretty drastic just to prove a point don't you think? Can you worship a God who would go to such extremes in the life of a poor innocent, God fearing man, just to prove a point? Do you still think you are softening the blow? And what is it that you think? That was God in the olden days, and somehow both God and Satan have changed since the olden days? Or do you believe God is immutable? And therefore-----Could/would you worship God as we see Him in Job 1 and 2?

 

[GeneZ]

I will get to answering your questions in a bit as I believe it the proper thing to do to answer the scriptural questions that are asked of me.

All in one post?

 

[GeneZ]

I don't need it expounded on by someone I don't know and therefore cannot rely on. I will only get their opinion on it. I am perfectly capable of expounding upon it myself, and have to some degree. In fact the end of it played a huge role early in my sanctification. But it needs no expounding on to answer the question I asked, which concerned only the first two chapters. Could/would you worship God as we see Him there?

How can you say it is a problem to my present and ask what it is at the same time?!

Just so you know what it is I will tell you even though common human decency would demand that you first answer my question to you. Could/would you worship God as we see Him in Job 1 and 2?

I worship God as He reveals Himself to us in the scriptures, whether it is to my liking or not. I understand that He is God, the Creator of everything, the sustainer of everything, the one who created me and as His creature creation I live and move and have my being in Him. He is King and I am servant. He is King and I am subject. I don't need to see Him other that who He is in order to worship Him. I am duty bound and pleased to worship Him as He is. I don't want to change Him. God as He is is the only God who can be trusted, all else is wishful thinking, and chasing after idols or the wind. I cannot trust in myself. and do not want to trust in myself. Thank God I don't have to trust in myself but can trust in every word that comes out of His mouth. Thank God my life is not in my own hands but in His, the true and faithful covenant God. I WILL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME. I will worship no other. I will trust in no other but the God who reveals Himself in His word, no matter how I may feel about this or that. Yes I can and I do worship God as we see Him in Job 1 and 2. There is no other! I know this. He is holy and righteous and good and all His ways are perfect. He is not me, and I am not Him. He is Other. He is God.

What does that have to do with the question: Could/would you worship God as we see Him in Job 1 and 2?

Oh look. You can quote scripture instead of answering the question: Could/ would you--------? Do you think for some reason I keep asking you that question and have not read that? Here is another question. Who brought Job to Satan's attention in the first place that prompted the above response?

That question doesn't need to be asked. It is answered in those passages. And it is three questions. You know---many people end their sentences with an uprising inflection that makes it sound like a question when it is not. Why do so many of your non questions have question marks after them? In this case it makes it really hard to determine what is a question and what is a statement.

Since God does not give the answer to that question, we will never find it by speculating.

Is that a statement or a question. If it is a question, see above. Could/would you worship the God that we see in Job 1 and 2? Without having to find a way in which He is really not that way and trying to do so by supplying an answer to the unanswerable questions that softens the blow?

God is the one that brought it up, not Satan. And none of it changes what God said and did. Pretty drastic just to prove a point don't you think? Can you worship a God who would go to such extremes in the life of a poor innocent, God fearing man, just to prove a point? Do you still think you are softening the blow? And what is it that you think? That was God in the olden days, and somehow both God and Satan have changed since the olden days? Or do you believe God is immutable? And therefore-----Could/would you worship God as we see Him in Job 1 and 2?

I will cut to the chase.....

When Satan and his angels rebelled?

Did God want them to repent? Yes!

The Lord disciplines everyone he loves; he punishes everyone he accepts as a child.”
So accept sufferings like a father's discipline. God does these things to you like a father
correcting his children. You know that all children are disciplined by their fathers."

Hebrews 12:5-7


And angels being also called sons of God?
God would discipline to correct them during the rebellion period, causing them to hurt as need be.

The Lord did not want Lucifer to perish... So?
The Lord made Satan hurt in the attempt to shake Satan out of his delusion of invincibility as to humble him.

Instead of humility and repentance?

Satan ratcheted up his arrogance. He CURSED the Lord to His face.

The Lord could not tolerate that.
And, the Lord judged and condemned Satan accordingly.

As a result?
Satan being the evil gossip that he is, began spreading a lying excuse among the angels.
His excuse being?

"If the Lord made anyone to suffer like He made me to suffer? You would have done the same thing!
I am innocent! The Lord is the one who is evil!"


Then...

Years later, along came Job.

Satan wanted to vindicate his evil that he had done when he cursed the Lord to His face.
Job was to be entered as Evidence A in the courtroom of Heaven for all angels to see.
In the end? Job proved Satan to be a liar.
The Lord was gloriously vindicated and his accusers put to shame!


Now? Does that tell you how I worship the Lord by answering your question that way?

 

[Arial]

I will cut to the chase.....

When Satan and his angels rebelled?

Did God want them to repent? Yes!

The Lord disciplines everyone he loves; he punishes everyone he accepts as a child.”
So accept sufferings like a father's discipline. God does these things to you like a father
correcting his children. You know that all children are disciplined by their fathers."

Hebrews 12:5-7


And angels being also called sons of God?
God would discipline to correct them during the rebellion period, causing them to hurt as need be.

The Lord did not want Lucifer to perish... So?
The Lord made Satan hurt in the attempt to shake Satan out of his delusion of invincibility as to humble him.

Instead of humility and repentance?

Satan ratcheted up his arrogance. He CURSED the Lord to His face.

The Lord could not tolerate that.
And, the Lord judged and condemned Satan accordingly.

As a result?
Satan being the evil gossip that he is, began spreading a lying excuse among the angels.
His excuse being?

"If the Lord made anyone to suffer like He made me to suffer? You would have done the same thing!
I am innocent! The Lord is the one who is evil!"


Then...

Years later, along came Job.

Satan wanted to vindicate his evil that he had done when he cursed the Lord to His face.
Job was to be entered as Evidence A in the courtroom of Heaven for all angels to see.
In the end? Job proved Satan to be a liar.
The Lord was gloriously vindicated and his accusers put to shame!


Now? Does that tell you how I worship the Lord by answering your question that way?

What a crock! None of that is ever said in the Bible, you or someone else, completely made it up. You should be ashamed of yourself!! You will do or say anything to not answer my question, Could/would you worship God as we see Him in Job 1 and 2? And in all your utter deflection away from the question that you thought gave the appearance of answering the question----did you think that I would not notice or get sidetracked by your dribble? Obviously the answer to the the question is No you would not worship that God. And you are afraid to say it "outloud." And you won't say it. But instead, in order to consider yourself as worshiping God, you let your own mind find a way to ignore what is said in Job or tell yourself it has nothing to do with who God is.

That God, was the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The one true and living God. There is no other God besides that God. You take a batch of clay and begin fashioning a different image. And worship the image. You will cut to the chase you said? All you did was make ice cream with eisegesis. And not even eisegesis of the scriptures but pure theorizing from no basis, and presenting it as some sort of answer to the question of whether or not you could worship that God. You didn't even manage to deal with the subject of what God did, only your pantomime of why He did it.

 

[Arial]

All in one post?

Yup. It isn't as difficult as you seem to think it is. Are you ever going to get back to those posts you only responded to one sentence in and finish addressing them? Didn't think so. Try doing what is respectful and expected in a forum and stop making phony excuses for not doing it.

 

[GeneZ]

What a crock!

I see....

 

[GeneZ]

None of that is ever said in the Bible, you or someone else, completely made it up.

​

​

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more ​

and more in knowledge and depth of insight.' Philippians 1:9​

Biblical insight requires something. More and more knowledge. Before 'insight' can happen.
Also, by knowing enough knowledge to see what the Bible can not mean to test the insight...

"Insight." It means its seeing what is not said, according to what can be known from what was said.

Insight is to become a part of a good healthy spiritual life.

Read it again, please.

And this is my prayer: that your love may abound more ​

and more in knowledge and depth of insight.' Philippians 1:9​

Good knowledge of God's Word leads to having love abound according to your gained knowledge....


Now.. With that in mind?

Could you please give me insight into the following?

The Pharisees HATED Jesus in spite of His perfect love.
His love for the Word of God. His love for the Father.
They were jealous of him.

Why?

 

[GeneZ]

Yup. It isn't as difficult as you seem to think it is. Are you ever going to get back to those posts you only responded to one sentence in and finish addressing them? Didn't think so. Try doing what is respectful and expected in a forum and stop making phony excuses for not doing it.

Why? When you can not even deal with the small amount I did respond to?
That does not encourage me to keep adding to what already seems too much for you...

Think about it. That is what has been happening.