For Whom Did Jesus Christ Die To Atone?

[Arial]

Incorrect. Jesus dealt with a religious order in Israel that elevated the traditions of the elders over the Scripture itself. I have never done that. But I have kept connected true, biblical Christianity to its Hebrew roots and post the Scripture accordingly, not traditions of the elders. I know better.

It is not the Hebrew roots that you have kept to. It is their bigotry you have kept to. The Hebrews are not their own root. Everything in their history, starting with Seth, is rooted in God, who He is, who they are as covenant members, how He is bringing about redemption through this root of Seth, through the Hebrews and Israel, to the whole world. The customs and culture of Israel are only pertinent insofar as they help us to understand why those that God established are present, and to understand more clearly why things are said in a certain way and at a certain time and under the circumstances in which they appear. It is not the whole ball of wax. Israel forgot who was her King and the witness that they were supposed to be. This, among other things, is what Jesus was coming against.

Jesus IS King of the Jews.

Jesus is King over all. (Phil 2:9-11; Matt 28:16-20)

He never chided his disciples nor the people over their desire to have the kingdom unified under their Messiah except when their desire went against the mission at hand.

Their desire was always against the mission. Some of His disciples still labored under that misunderstanding of both Israel's mission and the mission of Jesus, even after His resurrection. The mission was not an earthly king who would deliver them from all their enemies forever. The mission was to represent God and reveal Him to all the nations, both as to His singularity (one true God) and His sovereignty and His power. As well to be a witness of a covenantal relationship with Him. The very same misunderstanding you exhibit.

Even Jesus makes attempt to bring unification in Matthew 5:43 where He teaches about the original command to the children of Israel at the time of the Tabernacle lessons on love and WHO to love (brother=member of the same tribe, neighbor=member of another tribe.)

Again, the same misunderstanding those He spoke to had, when at one time someone asked Him, who is my neighbor? And Jesus told the story of the good Samaritan. He chose to use the Samaritan for a reason. The Jews despised the Samaritans and would have nothing to do with them. Even to touch one, according to them, was to become unclean.

I think you're confusing the religious leaders with the common folk that came from all over Israel to hear Him teach and receive blessings in His miraculous power to heal. It was the common folk in Jerusalem of the Feast of Harvest that became born-again by their Holy Spirit of Promise and 3000 Jews were converted and redeemed. Later, several years later, a "great company of priests were obedient to the New Covenant faith (Acts 6:7.)

I am confusing nothing. I am talking about the condition of Israel quite early in the OT, and their attitude, that was carried over into the NT. That of exclusiveness, not mission.

7 And the word of God increased; and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly; and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith. Acts 6:7.

Greatly is the word. Multiplication is mathematics. And once saved the continued to be obedient to the Torah as thousands and thousands of Jews were born-again and continued true, biblical Christ-ianity and to them the Torah came alive.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: Acts 21:19–20.

Even Saul after meeting Messiah continued to be obedient to the Torah. Jesus Christ was the fulfillment of their covenants. The embodiment of the Torah itself.

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law. Acts 21:23–24.

Red herring.

What is that?

Look it up.

The New Covenant established a continued relationship between God and the House of Israel and Judah. There are no Gentiles in this covenant either.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer. 31:31.

So, the old covenant with Israel failed and so God said, I will just make a new one with Israel. If Jesus, according to the flesh, comes from Judah, then what is Judah's house?

 

[Arial]

Scripture cannot be broken and no amount of Gentile elbowing will break it.
The New Covenant is between the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and the House of Israel and Judah.

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That I will make a new covenant
With the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer 31:31.

There is no mention of Gentiles in the New Covenant in Jesus Christ. Jesus is Named "Jesus/Yeshua" for the very reason that He comes to save "His people from their sins."

Well, you must discover what God means, not what you mean or what you think He means in this passage by specifically the house of Judah, since that is also the house of David. And you must take into consideration all else He says about redemption, particularly as the NT reveals what is said in the OT concerning the matter. It is there. It is clear. And you must learn what God means, not you, by His people. Who are they?

You pit Jer 31:31 against Romans 9:22-26 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory---even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'" "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there will be called 'sons of the living God.'" (which is a covenant relationship.)

I have given you this same scripture now three times for a reason. You have yet to say a word about it, and it contradicts your statements.

Then we also have Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ. Covenant.

Acts 10:34-36 Then Peter began to speak:"I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ who is Lord of all. 44. While Peter was still speaking these words,the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.

John 10:14-17 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.

Romans 9:6-13 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. Covenant.

The house of Israel and the house of Judah are those in Christ through faith. These are His people.

ANd even worse than saying we have no covenant with God, you also say that Jesus did not atone for our sins and we are dead in them. And you have said you are not a Jew, and yet you consider yourself a believer do you not? So are you also still dead in your sins?

 

[David1701]

...

The Mosaic Covenant God made with the children of Israel in the desert at the time of the Tabernacle with all the implements of the Tabernacle prefiguring Jesus Christ, along with the Passover Feast and the animal sacrifices that were done and practiced TO and FOR the children of Israel, all of it was done TO and FOR Israel. The Day of Atonement with the animal sacrifices were done yearly to cover the sins of the children of Israel with a view to Isaiah's prophecies about the Lord's Servant who would be the final sacrifice to atone for the sins of the children of Israel - NOT GENTILES.
One thing you WILL NOT FIND in the 37 'books' of the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets is the high priest after sacrificing animals to atone the sins of the children of Israel for one year did not leave Israel and go to any Gentile peoples living around Israel and offer sacrifices or pray for Gentiles. That never happened.
So, what is all this false, Constantinian Gentile theology of the last 1900 years that Jesus Christ, ISRAEL'S Deliverer, Redeemer, Savior, and King, died for Gentiles? This is very, very, far from the truth.

Jesus Christ fulfilled the Law and He did this as per covenant and prophecies that said He will come to do this and to do it all TO and FOR the children of Israel.

For whom did Jesus Christ die?

He died (and resurrected) for those that were in covenant with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, a people known as the children of Israel.

Well, thank you for making it clear that you are categorically opposed to Christianity. At least now we know exactly where you stand.

As for your false teaching that Jesus only died for Jews and not Gentiles, the Bible is very clear.

Isaiah 49:5,6
5 And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldst be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation to the end of the earth.

Acts 13:46-48
46 Then Paul and Barnabas became bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first be spoken to you: but seeing ye reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldst be for salvation to the ends of the earth.
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life, believed.

Acts 14:26,27
26 And thence sailed to Antioch, from whence they had been commended to the grace of God, for the work which they fulfilled.
27 And when they had come, and had assembled the church, they rehearsed all that God had done with them, and that he had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles.

Acts 15:7-9
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose and said to them, Men, brethren, ye know that a good while ago, God made choice among us, that the Gentiles, by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, who knoweth the hearts, bore them witness, giving to them the Holy Spirit, even as he did to us:
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:14-19
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take from among them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins of it; and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men may seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known to God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, who from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Acts 26:22,23
22 Having therefore obtained help from God, I continue to this day, testifying both to small and great, saying no other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should show light to the people, and to the Gentiles.

Acts 28:25-28
25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after Paul had spoken one word, Well spoke the Holy Spirit by Isaiah the prophet to our fathers,
26 Saying, Go to this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive.
27 For the heart of this people is become gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
28 Be it known therefore to you, that the salvation of God is sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it.

Rom. 9:23,24
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had before prepared for glory,
24 Even us whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles.

Rom. 9:25-33
25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call them My people, who were not my people; and her Beloved, who was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said to them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called, The children of the living God.
27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and been made like Gomorrah.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles who followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith:
31 But Israel, who followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Why? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling-stone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumbling-stone, and rock of offense: and whoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Rom. 11:7-11
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear to this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling-block, and a recompense to them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back always.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? By no means: but rather through their fall salvation is come to the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.


Ephesians 2:11-16
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

You have to be spiritually blind not to realise that Christ died for Gentiles as well as Jews.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Well, thank you for making it clear that you are categorically opposed to Christianity. At least now we know exactly where you stand.

I am not opposed to Christianity. I understand true, biblical Christianity in that salvation is of the Jews and their salvation forms the basis of Biblical Christianity.

As for your false teaching that Jesus only died for Jews and not Gentiles, the Bible is very clear.

God delivered the children of Israel from their bondage in Egypt as per prophecy to Abraham and as per His covenant with Abraham. God gave the children of Israel His Torah to instruct them in God's worship and how the twelve tribes were to live among themselves.
God gave His Torah to the children of Israel around 1450 BC. He instructed them in building a Tabernacle and instructed them in their sacrificial system. Until the advent of Israel's Messiah God continued with the children of Israel and we have the Old Testament that reveals a great many things. One of those major things was that the high priest after offering sacrifices and praying for the people of God (children of Israel in covenant) he did not leave the encampment and travel to the Gentile nations that surrounded the encampment and offer sacrifices or pray for them. So, until Jesus 1450 years came and gone, and Gentiles were without atonement for their sins, lived and died and went straight to hell while the children of Israel had their sins atoned even if only yearly.
When Jesus the High Priest arrived, John wrote:

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Jn 17:8–9.

If God wanted to atone for the sins of Gentiles, the time to pray for them was right here and now (Jn. 17.) But Jesus did not do that which continued to leave Gentiles without a prayer and without atonement. At the Passover meal Jesus shared it with members of the twelve tribes and the atonement continued to and for the children of Israel.
And Scripture CANNOT be broken. So, any discussion that God wanted to save Gentiles or that Jesus died for Gentiles is unfounded in Scripture and actual life. Jesus died to atone in a final way for the seed of Abraham which was His plan all along. Saying today and in the past that Jesus died for Gentiles is adding to the bible and adding to God's words makes the person that say such things a liar:

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

So, let's keep it biblical. God has no covenant with Gentiles and Jesus Christ came to atone Himself for the sins of His Bride and Church the twelve tribes of Israel and the seed of Abraham as per covenant.

You have to be spiritually blind not to realise that Christ died for Gentiles as well as Jews.

I see very well. And I see NO COVENANT in the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets of a covenant between God and Gentiles. None. And Scripture CANNOT be broken, and it never will be. So, all this adding Gentiles after the fact and without Old Testament Scriptural support remains a lie. The three covenants in the OT are between God and Abraham and his seed (Hebrews), between God and Abraham's seed the children of Jacob who was the son of Isaac who was the son of Abraham, and the New Covenant which is between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah. And neither of these three covenants mention let alone include uncircumcised, unclean, Gentiles.

 

[Arial]

I am not opposed to Christianity. I understand true, biblical Christianity in that salvation is of the Jews and their salvation forms the basis of Biblical Christianity.

No one has denied that salvation is of the Jews, and salvation is of the Jews is not what you preach. You preach that salvation is for the Jews, and according to the OP Jesus did not atone for the sins of Gentile Christians and that God has no covenant with them.

And Scripture CANNOT be broken, and it never will be. So, all this adding Gentiles after the fact and without Old Testament Scriptural support remains a lie.

That is the same as saying that the NT is irrelevant, was added by Gentiles, and is not the word of God. Truthfully, all that is in the NT comes directly from the OT, quotes it often, giving the full revelation of what was a mystery in the Law and Prophets, and which Israel in large part should have seen but did not, not even when the one who was prophesied, came.

As to your often repeated refrain that scripture cannot be broken, I challenge you to read the following from Eph 2, slowly and carefully. And I challenge you to address it while still maintaining your position that Jesus did not atone for Gentiles and God has no covenant with them, and your assertion that all of the NT letters were addressed to only Jews. And I challenge you to prove that you are not breaking scripture with your assertions, and doing so in a way that is an insult to God and His Christ.



11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by[e] the Spirit.



I suspect you will not take up the challenge.

 

[David1701]

I am not opposed to Christianity. I understand true, biblical Christianity in that salvation is of the Jews and their salvation forms the basis of Biblical Christianity.


God delivered the children of Israel from their bondage in Egypt as per prophecy to Abraham and as per His covenant with Abraham. God gave the children of Israel His Torah to instruct them in God's worship and how the twelve tribes were to live among themselves.
God gave His Torah to the children of Israel around 1450 BC. He instructed them in building a Tabernacle and instructed them in their sacrificial system. Until the advent of Israel's Messiah God continued with the children of Israel and we have the Old Testament that reveals a great many things. One of those major things was that the high priest after offering sacrifices and praying for the people of God (children of Israel in covenant) he did not leave the encampment and travel to the Gentile nations that surrounded the encampment and offer sacrifices or pray for them. So, until Jesus 1450 years came and gone, and Gentiles were without atonement for their sins, lived and died and went straight to hell while the children of Israel had their sins atoned even if only yearly.
When Jesus the High Priest arrived, John wrote:

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. Jn 17:8–9.

If God wanted to atone for the sins of Gentiles, the time to pray for them was right here and now (Jn. 17.) But Jesus did not do that which continued to leave Gentiles without a prayer and without atonement. At the Passover meal Jesus shared it with members of the twelve tribes and the atonement continued to and for the children of Israel.
And Scripture CANNOT be broken. So, any discussion that God wanted to save Gentiles or that Jesus died for Gentiles is unfounded in Scripture and actual life. Jesus died to atone in a final way for the seed of Abraham which was His plan all along. Saying today and in the past that Jesus died for Gentiles is adding to the bible and adding to God's words makes the person that say such things a liar:

6 Add thou not unto his words,
Lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.
Proverbs 30:6.

So, let's keep it biblical. God has no covenant with Gentiles and Jesus Christ came to atone Himself for the sins of His Bride and Church the twelve tribes of Israel and the seed of Abraham as per covenant.

I see very well. And I see NO COVENANT in the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets of a covenant between God and Gentiles. None. And Scripture CANNOT be broken, and it never will be. So, all this adding Gentiles after the fact and without Old Testament Scriptural support remains a lie. The three covenants in the OT are between God and Abraham and his seed (Hebrews), between God and Abraham's seed the children of Jacob who was the son of Isaac who was the son of Abraham, and the New Covenant which is between God and the House of Israel and the House of Judah. And neither of these three covenants mention let alone include uncircumcised, unclean, Gentiles.

You have ignored every Scripture that I posted (constituting the vast majority of my post), which tells me that you hate the truth and are only interested in trying to persuade people to believe your lies.

Do you not realise that:

1) Many people were people of God, before Israel even existed.

2) Israel was supposed to preach God's ways to the Gentiles (but largely didn't).

3) There were some saved Gentiles (e.g. Rahab), even in the OT.

4) Cornelius was a Gentile and Peter, along with other disciples, witnessed his salvation.

5) The OT says that the Messiah was to be a light to the Gentiles.

6) Paul was Jesus' apostle to the Gentiles.

etc., etc..

I won't mince my words: you are a false teacher; and, if you don't repent and believe in the real Lord Jesus Christ, then a fiery future awaits.

 

[jeremiah1five]

No one has denied that salvation is of the Jews, and salvation is of the Jews is not what you preach. You preach that salvation is for the Jews, and according to the OP Jesus did not atone for the sins of Gentile Christians and that God has no covenant with them.

Are you honest with Scripture? I am. And in my studies God made no covenant with non-Hebrews (Gentiles.) There is nothing in the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets. None.
What I do see when interacting with others of non-Hebrew persuasion that there is a continuous stampede to Romans or Galatians to try to prove Gentile inclusion into the Hebrew covenants but there is no covenant in the New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation. But what I do see in the overall content of the New Covenant writings of Matthew, Peter, Saul, James, etc., are Jewish Christians discussing and sharing their knowledge of the New Covenant parameters and content among themselves in order to understand and bring some sense to the New Covenant era the children of Israel of twelve tribes find themselves in. The prophet Jeremiah declares a New Covenant God says He will make with the House of Israel but doesn't provide too much information except more mention of previous prophecies and exactly what this New Covenant will accomplish: the redemption of the seed of Abraham. The New Covenant is new in the sense that all the sacrifices offered to God by the Hebrew people for their temporary covering of their sins was going to find eternal fulfillment in One Person who was to die for the sins of the House of Israel and take away their sins forever. There is also discussion, understanding, and teaching of the fulfillment of the coming Holy Spirit of Promise and what His Presence would effect for this covenant people, not to mention also the advent of Israel's Promised Redeemer, Deliverer, Messiah, and King and His effect upon the existing Abrahamic Covenant and prophecies surrounding His arrival and what Israel was to expect. But they had to search their Scripture in order to understand the prophecies of what new thing God was doing in the earth (Israel.)

That is the same as saying that the NT is irrelevant, was added by Gentiles, and is not the word of God.

I've never said those things. Nor can my words be taken to construe such statements you make. Although the New Covenant writings were written by Jewish Christians TO and FOR other Jewish Christians - except two personal letters from Saul to Timothy - the New Covenant is the Mosaic Covenant come alive in the Person of Jesus Christ. In other words, the Mosaic Covenant God had with the children of Israel is signed in blood, sealed by the Holy Spirit, and delivered to the twelve tribes of Israel. The Last Supper is the Passover meal in which God would atone for the sins of His covenant people. Jesus Christ is that Lamb that would give His life for God's covenant people. But this Lamb sacrifice came back alive! After all,...the Name of Yeshua was given by the angel before His birth that signified this Isaacian birth came to "save His people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21.)
This is stated very clearly by Saul in his Galatian epistle:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying
Gal. 4:3–6.

There is no covenant with Gentiles nor similar language in all of Scripture that even resembles the words of Saul above as he explained the New Covenant to fellow Jewish Christians in the Galatian region. He never said such words to or about Gentiles and did not break Scripture in doing so.

Truthfully, all that is in the NT comes directly from the OT, quotes it often, giving the full revelation of what was a mystery in the Law and Prophets, and which Israel in large part should have seen but did not, not even when the one who was prophesied, came.
As to your often repeated refrain that scripture cannot be broken, I challenge you to read the following from Eph 2, slowly and carefully. And I challenge you to address it while still maintaining your position that Jesus did not atone for Gentiles and God has no covenant with them, and your assertion that all of the NT letters were addressed to only Jews. And I challenge you to prove that you are not breaking scripture with your assertions, and doing so in a way that is an insult to God and His Christ.

It is a matter of interpretation. Saul, a rabbi who knew the Hebrew Scripture, a Pharisee of Pharisees, and a man above many his equals would not contradict the Abrahamic Covenant and add to the bible what Gentiles want it to say, and that is, that Scripture says Abraham's covenant with God is also with Gentiles for this would break Scripture. THAT covenant cannot be broken, it cannot later be changed by a mere messenger with a message that God gave him to take to His Jewish brethren who lived in Gentile lands, a message to take to the ten northern tribes which remained in Gentile lands while a remnant of two southern tribes returned to the Promised Land. Here is that covenant:

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. Gen. 17:7.

God repeats Himself several times on this issue of who is in this covenant. THIS is the Scripture that cannot be broken. There is no mention of non-Hebrews (Gentiles) or anyone who is not Abraham's seed. This promise was then passed to Isaac and then to Jacob. Then, the Mosaic Covenant was made, and the children of Israel (Jacob) were the beneficiaries. Again, no Gentiles (non-Hebrew.)

11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by[e] the Spirit.
I suspect you will not take up the challenge.

Given that the three Hebrew covenants are first with Abraham and his seed (Abrahamic), then with the children of Israel in the desert (Mosaic), and finally with the House of Israel and Judah (New Covenant), the foundation is laid that no man can lay neither does Saul say anything that would contradict the covenants, especially after this rabbi and Pharisee continued in obedience to the Torah (Pentateuch) after he was converted by Christ. So, your passages above do not speak of Gentiles being in either of the three Hebrew covenants and he is being misinterpreted. Or, if he says anything which CLEARLY says Gentiles are in any of the three Hebrew covenants then he has broken Scripture, sinned by adding to God's Word (Prov. 30:6), and is a false apostle and worker of iniquity and will one day join the antichrist and false prophet in the Lake of Fire.

And now I challenge you to post the Scripture that clearly states Gentiles (non-Hebrews) are in any of the three Hebrew Covenants using the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets where each covenant is found.

 

[Arial]

Are you honest with Scripture? I am.

No, you are not.You will not even acknowledge the scriptures that disprove you OP position.

And in my studies God made no covenant with non-Hebrews (Gentiles.) There is nothing in the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets. None.

That is different from the position of our OP. Which is that Jesus did not atone for the sins of Gentiles, and that God has no covenant with them. There was no covenant with Gentiles until after the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ. Which is in the NT. But this covenant is prophesied in the OT.

What I do see when interacting with others of non-Hebrew persuasion that there is a continuous stampede to Romans or Galatians to try to prove Gentile inclusion into the Hebrew covenants but there is no covenant in the New Covenant writings from Matthew to Revelation.

Does it matter where we "run to?" ANd you yourself are non-Hebrew and have never answered the question of how then are your sins atoned for and why does God have a covenant with you? It is exceedingly clear in the Romans and Galatians passages that you were given. But you were also given a whole long list of others by @David1701 and you ignored them all. It is also in Hosea and you were given that. You have been shown that all believers of any nation, God has covenanted with---and Jesus is the shed blood of that covenant. If one is in Christ through faith, they have been adopted into the household of God---covenant.

But what I do see in the overall content of the New Covenant writings of Matthew, Peter, Saul, James, etc., are Jewish Christians discussing and sharing their knowledge of the New Covenant parameters and content among themselves in order to understand and bring some sense to the New Covenant era the children of Israel of twelve tribes find themselves in.

That has been disproven to. The apostles are also writing to Gentiles. And they were not discussing it among themselves. The old covenant does not exist anymore. It became obsolete. It is no longer necessary. Everything, every promise in it is fulfilled by Christ. And you are still denying Eph 2, even though you say scripture cannot be broken.

The prophet Jeremiah declares a New Covenant God says He will make with the House of Israel but doesn't provide too much information except more mention of previous prophecies and exactly what this New Covenant will accomplish: the redemption of the seed of Abraham.

I think you need to learn about the role and purpose of the OT Prophets. And the meaning of the House of Israel, also referred to in Jer 31:31 as the house of Judah, which we already discussed and you ignored. It is as though you think if you don't look at something, ignore it, then it doesn't exist. You profess to have so much knowledge, and a superior understanding of scripture, and I am not questioning your intelligence, but there are places (like there are with all of us) of complete ignorance (lack of information) on a subject that you continue to preach on. It doesn't have to be that way. I gave you a list of books that would be beneficial on the subject. Another is O. Palmer Robertson Christ in the Covenants. Michael D. Williams Far as the Curse is Found: The Covenant Story of Redemption. Of course if you prefer to remain in the dark and preach this restricted, limited, God, you are free to do so.

There is no promise of redemption in the genetic seed of Abraham the children of the flesh. The promise is in the Seed of Abraham ---the seed of Seth et al---- Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David, Jesus. The promise begins in Gen 3. I will put enmity between her offspring and your offspring. Her offspring will crush your head, and he will bruise your heel. That is the promise of redemption and that is the new covenant.

The New Covenant is new in the sense that all the sacrifices offered to God by the Hebrew people for their temporary covering of their sins was going to find eternal fulfillment in One Person who was to die for the sins of the House of Israel and take away their sins forever. There is also discussion, understanding, and teaching of the fulfillment of the coming Holy Spirit of Promise and what His Presence would effect for this covenant people, not to mention also the advent of Israel's Promised Redeemer, Deliverer, Messiah, and King and His effect upon the existing Abrahamic Covenant and prophecies surrounding His arrival and what Israel was to expect. But they had to search their Scripture in order to understand the prophecies of what new thing God was doing in the earth (Israel.)

All of that has been proven to you, by Scripture, to be untrue.

I've never said those things. Nor can my words be taken to construe such statements you make.

Yes they can, because I did.

Although the New Covenant writings were written by Jewish Christians TO and FOR other Jewish Christians

Another thing that has been proven to you to be wrong by Scripture. And if the internal evidence is not enough for you, study history.

In other words, the Mosaic Covenant God had with the children of Israel is signed in blood, sealed by the Holy Spirit, and delivered to the twelve tribes of Israel.

Scripture?

The Last Supper is the Passover meal in which God would atone for the sins of His covenant people. Jesus Christ is that Lamb that would give His life for God's covenant people. But this Lamb sacrifice came back alive! After all,...the Name of Yeshua was given by the angel before His birth that signified this Isaacian birth came to "save His people from their sins" (Matt. 1:21.)

Christ's people are those the Father gave Him (John 6) the ones the Holy Spirit regenerates (john 3) and who are placed in Christ, by God the Holy Spirit, through faith. Eph 2. Those are His people. God knew them before the foundation of the world. That is a covenant relationship. Have you forgotten so soon that Jesus said He had other sheep, not of Israel? John 10.

 

[Mr GLee]

Many Gentiles (and I mean "Christian") would give the textbook answer and knee-jerk response and say "Adam" (and the woman), but I will disagree and say "Abraham."
The life that God promised to Adam, contingent upon his obedience and refraining from eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, was not one of total redemption (i.e. body, soul, human spirit.).
According to the reasoning of my understanding and belief that God created Adam body, soul, and human spirit and also created fallen short of the glory of God (sinful.) Given that God said, "for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Genesis 2:17), is not eternal life if he didn't eat thereof (and there is no duration attached to the command and this logically leads me to believe God knew of the sinful desire of the woman to eat it), and the fact that in eating they both died "in the day." Since they were both sinners before the command concerning the Tree is concerned, the 'death' that occurred was not physical, but a death of the human spirit because again, death is the punishment for sin and they were already sinners and physical death was every moment creeping upon them because they didn't possess eternal life to begin with (Gen. 3:22), and second, by adding to the Word of God "Neither shall ye touch it" reveals no "death" for mentioned for adding to God's Word. Being created sinful, physical death was already a part of their existence. The death God was referring in my mind was a spiritual death, but nothing to do with the Holy Spirit, but death of the human spirit. And it was the human spirit that died "in the day" they both ate from the Tree.

And say Abraham as what? Not gentile?

God created Adam body, soul, God breathed His mighty Spirit into mankind .Not dying human faith (dead ) Created in a temporal body, ubder temporal spirit subject to the letter of the law death .Mankind failed his temporal sprit given under the letter of the law returned to Father of all Spirt life and the dust returned to dust

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Mr GLee]

Are you honest with Scripture? I am. And in my studies God made no covenant with non-Hebrews (Gentiles.) There is nothing in the Hebrew Scripture of Law, Psalms, and Prophets. None.

Hebrew scripture ? Catholic say inspiration belongs to them .

God is not a Jewish man as King of kings, Lord of lords .

That from the garden was the goal of Satan . He hates all human flesh.

When the veil was rent there was no Hebrew King of kings sitting there Satan fell exposing the lie that God is a Jewish man He will be loosed for a short time again to try and convince mankind God is a Hebrew man

Revaltion 20: 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

[jeremiah1five]

If this were a moderated formal debate, that sentence would disqualify as a substantive argument. It presumes that the other debater is uninformed with no supporting evidence. It presumes that what is non Jewish in origin is wrong with no supporting evidence. It presumes that only arguments that are Hebrew and Jewish in character are valid---and is done so by one who says he is not Jewish, so also presumes the authority of the poster in all things Jewish, without any supporting evidence. The fact that this is not a moderated formal debate does not lessen the fallacies in the statement made by you.

I usually wait until there is a response before I conclude someone knows their dung or they are uninformed and ignorant. Since true, biblical Hebrew practice of the Torah, and true biblical Christianity is Hebrew-originated, since the Hebrews have the covenants and Gentiles do not. Except for Gentile proselytes and Gentile God-Fearers the Gentiles hated the Hebrews/Jews and the Hebrews/Jews hated the unclean, uncircumcised, Gentiles when Jesus walked Israel and especially after the two Roman-Jewish wars before the destruction of Israel and their Temple. Even if Gentiles were beginning to be "saved" after the destruction of the Temple they still hated the Jews and saw their destruction as "God casting away His people" and Gentiles - without any spiritual or Scriptural instruction - began to see themselves as Israel's replacement. In time, true, biblical Christianity of the Hebrews/Jews was unmoored from its Hebrew roots and more Greeks and Romans began writing about their Christianity completely devoid of Hebrew influence and beginnings. The Church Christ promised to build was first populated by Jewish Christians in every major Greek and Roman cities and at the beginning when Judaizers began to persecute this sect called the "Way" because of the stumbling stone in their way, soon Romans joined their persecution until AD 70. The Hebrews were scattered once again, and laws were passed at Rome preventing their return to their land.
Everything happening in Israel and other Greek cities among the Jewish people was in accordance to their covenants and their prophets declaring God's purpose with His Covenant people. It was their covenants. Jesus was their Messiah. True, biblical Christianity was indeed a "Jewish" thing as thousands and thousands of Jews were born-again and saved until AD 70. Jesus fulfilled THEIR covenants and prophecies. He was the embodiments of everything Hebrew from Abraham to Moses on down to Him.

Another disqualifying remark. It presumes something unsupported and also untrue. Christianity comes from the Hebrew roots in the OT, and was given through the apostles by the Hebrew, Jesus. And there is no such thing as Gentile theology. There is only theology, and this is given in the totality of the scriptures, most vividly in the OT and applied in the NT.

If Gentile theology was "just theology" it would be in line with the Torah and the commandments of God. But it isn't. The "theology" that God's Torah/Word is "abolished" and "obsolete" proves the "theology" is NOT in accordance with God's Word nor Jesus' commands to obey the Torah but is a different beast altogether since it is not obedient to God and His Christ. The Mosaic Covenant to the Hebrew people is eternal. The commands of Jesus were His teaching to His people the Torah and the prophets and many commands to obey the Torah (Law.) Jesus was teaching from out of their Law and instructed and directed the people to obey God in that Word. He was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. The New Covenant in His blood is with the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

Compound sentences do not usually contain such a conglomeration of points, so I will break it down into parts that are handleable with color coding.

That is an untrue accusation, and assumes your ability to know the operation of my mind.

I don't need to know your mind. All I need to know is the Word of God (Heb. 4:12-13.)

You never say what it is the Gentiles teach.

A banker learning how to spot counterfeit bills doesn't train with counterfeit bills. They train handling the real money. They get so familiar with the real money that when a counterfeit comes along, they can spot it. Before my revelation of late in the things of God I was 'touched' with Arminianism, studied the doctrines of grace and studied the Puritans. All this was appropriate foundation for what revelation God was soon to bring me. And I am not alone. There will be other Christians with similar message which will lay the groundwork for when the two witnesses arrive and they reconnect true, biblical Christianity back to its Hebrew roots and this will cause a hatred from them upon Israel and the tables will be turned. In those days it will be Gentiles that will be blinded, and God use His covenant people to make THEM jealous.

Not even all the Jews in Jerusalem were killed, and Jews were scattered throughout the surrounding nations, so your entire premise for Gentiles being wrong is destroyed. It was Jewish men who were the apostles spreading the gospel, and Paul specifically sent to who? The Gentiles.

The apostles and Saul were sent to the Gentiles because in Gentile lands that's where the twelve tribes of Israel lived. Their message? Messiah had come and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets were correct. God had visited His people in the Person of Jesus Christ and a New Covenant was upon them.

A complete fabrication and in direct opposition to historical facts both internal to Scripture and external through historical records. And where does the Bible say that the church that Christ built---not promised to build---was completely Jewish? Wasn't it Jews---the apostles---who said Christ died for the whole world? Wasn't it Jesus who said in John 10 that He had sheep not of Israel (this flock) that He would gather?

The "other flock" Jesus spoke of in John 10 are the Samaritans. A gene-diluted people of Jew-Gentile descent that still were Abraham's seed and therefore STILL in covenant with God. He promised to make two into one. Just as He attempted to make two into one in Matthew 5:43 and the tribal animosities of the northern and southern kingdom tribes, Jesus also had to address the Samaritan 'question.' And He did. While under the Law Jesus addressed Samaritans and I see them as "type and shadow" of a future people that will be of Jew-Gentile descent that will become born-again, and this people just may see themselves as Gentile but quite possibly have Abrahm's seed in their family lines which is why they become saved.

Then where did the Greek translation of the OT come from?

Hellenized Jews.

Where did the Hebrew and Greek texts that we have in our modern Bibles come from?

Gentiles.

What you are calling the warped version of Christianity is what we have to this day in our Bible. The NT books are deeply rooted in the OT books.

Maybe so, but the practice is not. Jesus said, "if you love me obey my commandments."
What are His commandments but the Torah and the Mosaic Law. That's all He taught His people. And the New Covenant is only a fulfillment of the Law, not the end of it. He told the religious leaders that if they obeyed Moses they would obey Him. But there is no true obedience if Gentiles made the Law "obsolete."

The writers of the NT are constantly quoting from the Law and the Prophets, and correctly applying it to the new covenant. Here is just one example. Romans 9:22-26

Jews that became born-again continued their practice and obedience to the Law. So did Saul. Why don't Gentiles? The Scriptures, including the Law, instruct in righteousness. The Law is more than the Ten Commandments. It's not enough having the Ten Commandments framed and hanging on a Gentile church wall and teaching from the OT on Sunday mornings. Jesus taught the spirit of the Law not the letter. Why aren't Gentile churches teaching obedience to the Torah since now a born-again person becomes spiritual and the Law is spiritual. Why isn't there solid connection in Gentile churches to teach a Hebrew perspective of the New Covenant - which it is through and through - and these things taught in Gentile churches to bring their doctrine in line to the whole counsel of God and not just the New Testament only. The New Covenant is based on the Mosaic Covenant.

That is historically incorrect. The Bible contains all that is necessary of Jewish history and culture within itself. Christianity is based on the Scriptures, always has been, always will be.

Again, why isn't it practiced just as the Jews that became born-again did. They continued in God's Torah after their spiritual conversion. So did Saul.

Which is it. They had none or they had some? And no, that is not the reason why Alexandria or anywhere else, became a center of false doctrine and heresies. Which heresies and false doctrine you do not name in any case, so pretty much a wasted space of a statement in trying to prove your theory.

I don't have to "prove me theory." I just post the Scripture and others THINK its theory.
Give 'em hell, Harry!

 

[jeremiah1five]

Well, you must discover what God means, not what you mean or what you think He means in this passage by specifically the house of Judah, since that is also the house of David. And you must take into consideration all else He says about redemption, particularly as the NT reveals what is said in the OT concerning the matter. It is there. It is clear. And you must learn what God means, not you, by His people. Who are they?

You pit Jer 31:31 against Romans 9:22-26 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory---even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'" "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there will be called 'sons of the living God.'" (which is a covenant relationship.)

I have given you this same scripture now three times for a reason. You have yet to say a word about it, and it contradicts your statements.

Then we also have Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ. Covenant.

Acts 10:34-36 Then Peter began to speak:"I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ who is Lord of all. 44. While Peter was still speaking these words,the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.

John 10:14-17 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.

Romans 9:6-13 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. Covenant.

The house of Israel and the house of Judah are those in Christ through faith. These are His people.

ANd even worse than saying we have no covenant with God, you also say that Jesus did not atone for our sins and we are dead in them. And you have said you are not a Jew, and yet you consider yourself a believer do you not? So are you also still dead in your sins?

Respond to this:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal. 4:4–5.

Gentiles were never under the Law. It's staring you right in the face. You can't explain it away.

Jesus was given the Name "Jesus" because the angel said, "He will save HIS PEOPLE from their sins."

 

[jeremiah1five]

Well, you must discover what God means, not what you mean or what you think He means in this passage by specifically the house of Judah, since that is also the house of David. And you must take into consideration all else He says about redemption, particularly as the NT reveals what is said in the OT concerning the matter. It is there. It is clear. And you must learn what God means, not you, by His people. Who are they?

His people are those to whom He was prophesied:

15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; Dt 18:15.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Dt 18:18.

To whom was this Prophet to speak to? The children of Israel and THEY have the command to "hearken."

31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. Jn 1:30–31.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 15:23–24.

The Messiah is the fulfillment of THEIR covenant and THEIR prophecies. There are no Gentiles mentioned. God has no covenant with Gentiles. None.

You pit Jer 31:31 against Romans 9:22-26 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory---even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? As indeed he says in Hosea, "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved I will call 'beloved.'" "And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there will be called 'sons of the living God.'" (which is a covenant relationship.)

The key is to identify what Gentiles

I have given you this same scripture now three times for a reason. You have yet to say a word about it, and it contradicts your statements.

I said the same thing as the covenant as written in Genesis 17. This covenant as with the other covenants is with Abraham and his seed, a people of twelve tribes known also as Israel. Saul would not say anything to contradict this truth so its a matter of Gentile interpretation to say Saul is saying Gentiles are in the Hebrew cocvenants when they are not. That's why I pay no attention. It's your interpretation knowing as I do that Saul is not adding to the Word in Genesis and Exodus and adding Gentiles.

Then we also have Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ. Covenant.

Saul is writing to Jewish Christians who are very concerned with their standing in the Abrahamic Covenant because they are Christ-ian. Read the several verse above 29.

23 But before faith came, we (JEWS) were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal. 3:22–23.

Acts 10:34-36 Then Peter began to speak:"I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right. You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, announcing the good news of peace through Jesus Christ who is Lord of all. 44. While Peter was still speaking these words,the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on Gentiles.

Proselytes, God-Fearers? Which group is being mentioned?

John 10:14-17 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.

Samaritans. They are still in covenant being Abraham's seed.

Romans 9:6-13 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named." This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. Covenant.

Ishmael and Isaac are in view here.

The house of Israel and the house of Judah are those in Christ through faith. These are His people.

ANd even worse than saying we have no covenant with God, you also say that Jesus did not atone for our sins and we are dead in them. And you have said you are not a Jew, and yet you consider yourself a believer do you not? So are you also still dead in your sins?

And Gentiles (non-Hebrews) are NOT the seed of Abraham.

 

[Arial]

Respond to this:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal. 4:4–5.

Gentiles were never under the Law. It's staring you right in the face. You can't explain it away.

Jesus was given the Name "Jesus" because the angel said, "He will save HIS PEOPLE from their sins."

Why don't you put that into the context of the whole chapter of Gal.? Do you not have a good study Bible that in chapter prefaces and footnotes gives the date and occasion of the writing, so you don't have to blindly guess who the writer is writing to and why. So you don't arrive at doctrines and ideas from a couple of scriptures isolated from all other parts of the letter, even the purpose of the letter?

And though you did not actually address what I asked you to in Eph 2, only pretended to but presented nothing but any number of fallacies, not the least of which was utter avoidance of presenting the meaning of those passages, and steering things a different direction, I will answer this one. In order to prove your sincerity in and out of respect I will ask again in a different way. Eph 2:11-22. Read it, study it at least a little, and then tell me in your own words what it says.

Galatians is written to a Gentile audience. There were no doubt some Jews present in the churches in Galatia, but the letter is aimed at Gentiles. Otherwise there would be no reason for Paul to be saying the things he said. It was written to address and answer specific problems in particular churches. This is important in understanding the epistle. Not long after the Galatians had accepted the gospel, agitators came in. They attacked Paul personally (4:17) and preached a distorted form of the gospel (1:6-7). Their gospel required circumcision for salvation (6:12). This is internal evidence that the audience was Gentile or they would have already been circumcised. It is likely they were attempting to convert these Gentiles to to Judaism under increasing pressure from nationalistic Jewish groups. According to Josephus (external source) the Jewish people were becoming increasingly intolerant of contact between Jews and Gentiles during the last half of the first century. (Sound like anyone you know?)

In chapters 1 and 2 Paul is defending himself against the accusations made against him. In chapter 3 he begins to denounce this perverted gospel that was being preached and proclaim that all, both Jew and Gentile are justified before God in only one way. Through faith in Christ, nothing added. ANd this is what he says in 3:19-29


19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary. 20 Now an intermediary implies more than one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave[a] nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

Do you really think that a few sentences later he contracted himself? So it is not only those who were born under the Law who are redeemed, for everyone is under the same curse of the Law, whether they were born into the Law or not.

 

[Arial]

The apostles and Saul were sent to the Gentiles because in Gentile lands that's where the twelve tribes of Israel lived. Their message? Messiah had come and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets were correct. God had visited His people in the Person of Jesus Christ and a New Covenant was upon them

It does not say sent to Jews in Gentile lands, but to the Gentiles. And it is the gospel that was sent, not "Messiah had come," You show that you do not even know what the gospel is, and you do not know why Christ went to the cross or who He died for, that you do not know what the promise is, or that if there is a promise made by God, then there is a covenant. And yet here you are, claiming revelation by God and preaching against His word.

I am not going to bother with the rest of this post point by point. You are just repeating yourself, repeating your gross heresy, except to say that you also don't know what theology is. It is not the law. It is the study of God----something you do not even bother with.

 

[Mr GLee]

I usually wait until there is a response before I conclude someone knows their dung or they are uninformed and ignorant. Since true, biblical Hebrew practice of the Torah, and true biblical Christianity is Hebrew-originated, since the Hebrews have the covenants and Gentiles do not. Except for Gentile proselytes and Gentile God-Fearers the Gentiles hated the Hebrews/Jews and the Hebrews/Jews hated the unclean, uncircumcised, Gentiles when Jesus walked Israel and especially after the two Roman-Jewish wars before the destruction of Israel and their Temple. Even if Gentiles were beginning to be "saved" after the destruction of the Temple they still hated the Jews and saw their destruction as "God casting away His people" and Gentiles - without any spiritual or Scriptural instruction - began to see themselves as Israel's replacement. In time, true, biblical Christianity of the Hebrews/Jews was unmoored from its Hebrew roots and more Greeks and Romans began writing about their Christianity completely devoid of Hebrew influence and beginnings. The Church Christ promised to build was first populated by Jewish Christians in every major Greek and Roman cities and at the beginning when Judaizers began to persecute this sect called the "Way" because of the stumbling stone in their way, soon Romans joined their persecution until AD 70. The Hebrews were scattered once again, and laws were passed at Rome preventing their return to their land.
Everything happening in Israel and other Greek cities among the Jewish people was in accordance to their covenants and their prophets declaring God's purpose with His Covenant people. It was their covenants. Jesus was their Messiah. True, biblical Christianity was indeed a "Jewish" thing as thousands and thousands of Jews were born-again and saved until AD 70. Jesus fulfilled THEIR covenants and prophecies. He was the embodiments of everything Hebrew from Abraham to Moses on down to Him.

Biblical spiritual. (compare the spiritual unseen to the unseen things of our invisible Holy Father).

1 Corinthians 2:12-13 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual (unseen) things with spiritual. . . . . . .Unseen faith to faith

Having nothing to do with the dying flesh of mankind.

Not biblical Hebrew biblical anymore then that of Catholic biblical that claims to be the cannon assemblers.

God is not a Jewish man as King of kings. That is clearly the goal of the father of lies right from the garden .

I will ascend to the clouds I will be like God .

When the work of the two the Father( Invisible head) and the Son of man, Jesus was finished the veil was rent there was no Hebrew man siting in the holy of holies.

You keep forgetting all of Israel are not born again Christians . the new name the invisible head named his bride In Isiah 62. Named after her husband Christ a more befitting name to name the one bride. made up of every family or nation. When ever two or three gather under the hearing of sola scriptura he promises he is there working with them as Emmanuel.

God is not a dying Jewish man as King of kings .

 

[brightfame52]

He died specifically to atone for and save His people Matt 1:21 or His Sheep Jn 10 or His Church Eph 5:25; Acts 20:28, they're all the same people.

 

[Arial]

The "other flock" Jesus spoke of in John 10 are the Samaritans. A gene-diluted people of Jew-Gentile descent that still were Abraham's seed and therefore STILL in covenant with God. He promised to make two into one. Just as He attempted to make two into one in Matthew 5:43 and the tribal animosities of the northern and southern kingdom tribes, Jesus also had to address the Samaritan 'question.' And He did. While under the Law Jesus addressed Samaritans and I see them as "type and shadow" of a future people that will be of Jew-Gentile descent that will become born-again, and this people just may see themselves as Gentile but quite possibly have Abrahm's seed in their family lines which is why they become saved.

Complete fabrication with no regard to God's word whatsoever.

Gentiles.

Why do you use it then?

What are His commandments but the Torah and the Mosaic Law.

The ten commandments. The written Law given by Moses is simply expansion of them regarding the life and behavior of man towards God, man towards creation itself, man towards man, with boundaries set for the purpose of instruction in righteousness. They were to be different from the many god worshipers and amoral nations around them, and a witness to them.

That's all He taught His people. And the New Covenant is only a fulfillment of the Law, not the end of it. He told the religious leaders that if they obeyed Moses they would obey Him. But there is no true obedience if Gentiles made the Law "obsolete."

That is not all He taught the Jews, not by a long shot. Guess you were absent on those days. The New Covenant is not a fulfillment of the Law, Jesus is. He fulfilled all righteousness that is encased in the Law, in order to be the substitute for sinners in His suffering and death, and not for Jews only, but for the whole world---meaning all the world, not all people without exception.

Jews that became born-again continued their practice and obedience to the Law. So did Saul. Why don't Gentiles? The Scriptures, including the Law, instruct in righteousness. The Law is more than the Ten Commandments. It's not enough having the Ten Commandments framed and hanging on a Gentile church wall and teaching from the OT on Sunday mornings. Jesus taught the spirit of the Law not the letter. Why aren't Gentile churches teaching obedience to the Torah since now a born-again person becomes spiritual and the Law is spiritual. Why isn't there solid connection in Gentile churches to teach a Hebrew perspective of the New Covenant - which it is through and through - and these things taught in Gentile churches to bring their doctrine in line to the whole counsel of God and not just the New Testament only. The New Covenant is based on the Mosaic Covenant.

That post completely opposed the scripture that was given, Romans 9:22-26, and you did it without batting an eye or a twinge of conscience?

Again, why isn't it practiced just as the Jews that became born-again did. They continued in God's Torah after their spiritual conversion. So did Saul.

Do you know that? Why were they kicked out of the synagogues and being accused of preaching against the Law?

I usually wait until there is a response before I conclude someone knows their dung or they are uninformed and ignorant. Since true, biblical Hebrew practice of the Torah, and true biblical Christianity is Hebrew-originated, since the Hebrews have the covenants and Gentiles do not. Except for Gentile proselytes and Gentile God-Fearers the Gentiles hated the Hebrews/Jews and the Hebrews/Jews hated the unclean, uncircumcised, Gentiles when Jesus walked Israel and especially after the two Roman-Jewish wars before the destruction of Israel and their Temple. Even if Gentiles were beginning to be "saved" after the destruction of the Temple they still hated the Jews and saw their destruction as "God casting away His people" and Gentiles - without any spiritual or Scriptural instruction - began to see themselves as Israel's replacement. In time, true, biblical Christianity of the Hebrews/Jews was unmoored from its Hebrew roots and more Greeks and Romans began writing about their Christianity completely devoid of Hebrew influence and beginnings. The Church Christ promised to build was first populated by Jewish Christians in every major Greek and Roman cities and at the beginning when Judaizers began to persecute this sect called the "Way" because of the stumbling stone in their way, soon Romans joined their persecution until AD 70. The Hebrews were scattered once again, and laws were passed at Rome preventing their return to their land.
Everything happening in Israel and other Greek cities among the Jewish people was in accordance to their covenants and their prophets declaring God's purpose with His Covenant people. It was their covenants. Jesus was their Messiah. True, biblical Christianity was indeed a "Jewish" thing as thousands and thousands of Jews were born-again and saved until AD 70. Jesus fulfilled THEIR covenants and prophecies. He was the embodiments of everything Hebrew from Abraham to Moses on down to Him.

If Gentile theology was "just theology" it would be in line with the Torah and the commandments of God. But it isn't. The "theology" that God's Torah/Word is "abolished" and "obsolete" proves the "theology" is NOT in accordance with God's Word nor Jesus' commands to obey the Torah but is a different beast altogether since it is not obedient to God and His Christ. The Mosaic Covenant to the Hebrew people is eternal. The commands of Jesus were His teaching to His people the Torah and the prophets and many commands to obey the Torah (Law.) Jesus was teaching from out of their Law and instructed and directed the people to obey God in that Word. He was sent ONLY to the lost sheep of the House of Israel. The New Covenant in His blood is with the lost sheep of the House of Israel.

I don't need to know your mind. All I need to know is the Word of God (Heb. 4:12-13.)

A banker learning how to spot counterfeit bills doesn't train with counterfeit bills. They train handling the real money. They get so familiar with the real money that when a counterfeit comes along, they can spot it. Before my revelation of late in the things of God I was 'touched' with Arminianism, studied the doctrines of grace and studied the Puritans. All this was appropriate foundation for what revelation God was soon to bring me. And I am not alone. There will be other Christians with similar message which will lay the groundwork for when the two witnesses arrive and they reconnect true, biblical Christianity back to its Hebrew roots and this will cause a hatred from them upon Israel and the tables will be turned. In those days it will be Gentiles that will be blinded, and God use His covenant people to make THEM jealous.

The apostles and Saul were sent to the Gentiles because in Gentile lands that's where the twelve tribes of Israel lived. Their message? Messiah had come and the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets were correct. God had visited His people in the Person of Jesus Christ and a New Covenant was upon them.


The "other flock" Jesus spoke of in John 10 are the Samaritans. A gene-diluted people of Jew-Gentile descent that still were Abraham's seed and therefore STILL in covenant with God. He promised to make two into one. Just as He attempted to make two into one in Matthew 5:43 and the tribal animosities of the northern and southern kingdom tribes, Jesus also had to address the Samaritan 'question.' And He did. While under the Law Jesus addressed Samaritans and I see them as "type and shadow" of a future people that will be of Jew-Gentile descent that will become born-again, and this people just may see themselves as Gentile but quite possibly have Abrahm's seed in their family lines which is why they become saved.

Hellenized Jews.

Gentiles.

Maybe so, but the practice is not. Jesus said, "if you love me obey my commandments."
What are His commandments but the Torah and the Mosaic Law. That's all He taught His people. And the New Covenant is only a fulfillment of the Law, not the end of it. He told the religious leaders that if they obeyed Moses they would obey Him. But there is no true obedience if Gentiles made the Law "obsolete."


Jews that became born-again continued their practice and obedience to the Law. So did Saul. Why don't Gentiles? The Scriptures, including the Law, instruct in righteousness. The Law is more than the Ten Commandments. It's not enough having the Ten Commandments framed and hanging on a Gentile church wall and teaching from the OT on Sunday mornings. Jesus taught the spirit of the Law not the letter. Why aren't Gentile churches teaching obedience to the Torah since now a born-again person becomes spiritual and the Law is spiritual. Why isn't there solid connection in Gentile churches to teach a Hebrew perspective of the New Covenant - which it is through and through - and these things taught in Gentile churches to bring their doctrine in line to the whole counsel of God and not just the New Testament only. The New Covenant is based on the Mosaic Covenant.

Again, why isn't it practiced just as the Jews that became born-again did. They continued in God's Torah after their spiritual conversion. So did Saul.

I don't have to "prove me theory." I just post the Scripture and others THINK its theory.
Give 'em hell, Harry!

It is theory because it has been proven to be unsupportable by Scripture.

 

[Mr GLee]

His people are those to whom He was prophesied:

15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; Dt 18:15.

18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Dt 18:18.

To whom was this Prophet to speak to? The children of Israel and THEY have the command to "hearken."

31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. Jn 1:30–31.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 15:23–24.

The Messiah is the fulfillment of THEIR covenant and THEIR prophecies. There are no Gentiles mentioned. God has no covenant with Gentiles. None.

The key is to identify what Gentiles

I said the same thing as the covenant as written in Genesis 17. This covenant as with the other covenants is with Abraham and his seed, a people of twelve tribes known also as Israel. Saul would not say anything to contradict this truth so its a matter of Gentile interpretation to say Saul is saying Gentiles are in the Hebrew cocvenants when they are not. That's why I pay no attention. It's your interpretation knowing as I do that Saul is not adding to the Word in Genesis and Exodus and adding Gentiles.

Saul is writing to Jewish Christians who are very concerned with their standing in the Abrahamic Covenant because they are Christ-ian. Read the several verse above 29.

23 But before faith came, we (JEWS) were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal. 3:22–23.

Proselytes, God-Fearers? Which group is being mentioned?

Samaritans. They are still in covenant being Abraham's seed.

Ishmael and Isaac are in view here.

And Gentiles (non-Hebrews) are NOT the seed of Abraham.

Not the dying seeds of a Jew after Abraham the fleshly dying seeds. (Millions) But a spiritual seed as unseen . . . . . . . Christ alone)

Where are the 12 tribes today seeing the geaneoulgy of the spiritual seed ended with the Son of man. born again Jesus the first born of many sons of God. Christians from all the nations of the world

Which tribe are you from? And why 12 tribes and not 12 apostles, together they make up one Christian bride .The new name the Father named the wife in Acts .

Twelve the golden measure a unknown likened as hidden manna .

Gates and walls make up the body of Christ lively stones that make up the spiritual unseen house

Revaltion 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve apostles (sent ones) , and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

Gates without walls are useless in keeping the enemy out.

Reminds me of one the do not even think of it doctrines of Christ.

Just as Catholiscim taking the temporal dying seed and electing Perter as if he was the one Holy Father the unseen head

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham (Peter) to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

Proverbs 25:28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

 

[Arial]

His people are those to whom He was prophesied:

15 The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; Dt 18:15.

Yep. Like Moses brought Israel out of slavery to Egypt, Jesus delivers all those placed in Him by the sovereign God, out of slavery to sin, out of the kingdom of darkness and into Christ's kingdom. (Romans 1:1-2:16)

Romans 1:1-7 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ or Lord, through who we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith for the sake of his name among all the nations, including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ, to all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

16,17 For I a not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, "The righteous shall live by faith."

To whom was this Prophet to speak to? The children of Israel and THEY have the command to "hearken."

31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. Jn 1:30–31.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 15:23–24.

Yes, and they should have recognized Him. They didn't, refused again to carry out their mission which was to the world, not just unto themselves, and at this final rejection, Jesus sent the Apostles to proclaim the good news ----which could not come until after His death and resurrection, not before it, to the world. The mission is now given to Christ's church, Jew and Gentile alike----AS YOU HAVE BEEN SHOWN WITH COUNTLESS SCRIPTURES THAT YOU IGNORE.

The Messiah is the fulfillment of THEIR covenant and THEIR prophecies. There are no Gentiles mentioned. God has no covenant with Gentiles. None.

Messiah is a fulfillment of their LAW. The Law is not the covenant. The covenant is the relationship between God and Israel. The Law is the covenant stipulations. Covenant is not established by law, it is established by God. It contains promises that God alone can and will fulfill. Where there is a promise made by God, there is a covenant. The New Covenant is made by God, through the work of Christ ---- His sinless life, His death, His resurrection, His ascension. It has a promise. Eternal life and the eventual restoration of all things. That is a covenant promise only God can and will fulfill. And it is with those who are in Christ through faith, and through faith alone, and Christ alone.

The key is to identify what Gentiles

Well it says which Gentiles. Those who are called. It also identifies which Jews. Those who are called. No one invites themselves into the New Covenant. So you need to identify who are those who are called? I already have, and I have already given you those scriptures. Don't make it up, but find out what God says. ANd do that from His word and not from what you think He is whispering in your ear.

I said the same thing as the covenant as written in Genesis 17. This covenant as with the other covenants is with Abraham and his seed, a people of twelve tribes known also as Israel. Saul would not say anything to contradict this truth so its a matter of Gentile interpretation to say Saul is saying Gentiles are in the Hebrew cocvenants when they are not. That's why I pay no attention. It's your interpretation knowing as I do that Saul is not adding to the Word in Genesis and Exodus and adding Gentiles.

Nobody said they were in the Hebrew covenants. That is not the argument. The argument is that you say non-Jewish believers have no covenant with God BECAUSE they are not in the Hebrew covenants. Paul didn't say Gentiles are in the Hebrew covenant, and I do not interpret him as saying that. Paul is interpreting what was in Gen 3, the promised Seed that would crush the serpents head. He is interpreting the covenant with Abraham and the promises to his offspring to have two parts, but one purpose---the offspring of the flesh and the offspring of the promise. ANd what is that promise? Hmmm? And what IS a promise made by God but a covenant relationship?

Saul is writing to Jewish Christians who are very concerned with their standing in the Abrahamic Covenant because they are Christ-ian. Read the several verse above 29.

23 But before faith came, we (JEWS) were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Gal. 3:22–23.

If Paul were writing to Jewish Christians he wouldn't be coming against the need for circumcision. If they were Jewish Christians no one would be telling them they needed to be circumcised in order to be saved. Use your head.

Proselytes, God-Fearers? Which group is being mentioned?

Believers in the gospel.

Samaritans. They are still in covenant being Abraham's seed.

They were scattered because the broke the covenant. A broken covenant is no longer a covenant. But you were shown Paul saying it is not the offspring of the flesh, but the offspring of the promise. So why do you continue to believe what you say?

Ishmael and Isaac are in view here.

That may be what is in view but what Paul said that MEANS is not what you say it means. ANd he clearly states that he is interpreting what he has just quoted from the OT. "That Means----"

And Gentiles (non-Hebrews) are NOT the seed of Abraham.

They are not the children of the flesh, but believing non-Jews are children of the promise. And what is the promise? The promise is in the offspring of the one who would crush the serpents head. Abraham is is Seth who is the Seed bearer. And Jacob, not Esau is the Seed bearer. ANd Judah, not any of his Hebrew brothers, is the Seed bearer. And David of Judah, not any of his brothers, is the Seed bearer. And Christ is the Seed. All in Him through faith, not DNA, are heirs to the promise. And the promise is adoption into His kingdom and eternal life.