The god of Calvinism's arbitrary decision.

[ReverendRV]

Regarding the second line, "It is the idea that one might do what it takes to obtain salvation and yet be cast away for that person is of the non-elect."

The above quote is a total straw man. If they are not of the elect, then by definition they are not going to "do what it takes to obtain salvation." The meaning of those not chosen are those who are not removed from their unbelief. Hence, they persist in their unbelief, reject the gospel, reject general revelation, and spurn the general grace from God. The idea of the non-elect truly believing is complete nonsense in Calvinism, and it would be a denial of total depravity. Hence, this is an extremely flagrant straw man fallacy. What is in the blue quote above is simply not Calvinism.

Look at it this way; saying scary falsehoods like this about Calvinism, is like the Old South saying scary falsehoods about Blacks...

For them to continue after correction, is not like fighting a Court Case; but is an attempt to Lynch Calvinism...

 

[justbyfaith]

Are you mistaking Prevenient Grace with Common Grace?

Perhaps. How are they different?

 

[justbyfaith]

Regarding the second line, "It is the idea that one might do what it takes to obtain salvation and yet be cast away for that person is of the non-elect."

The above quote is a total straw man. If they are not of the elect, then by definition they are not going to "do what it takes to obtain salvation." The meaning of those not chosen are those who are not removed from their unbelief. Hence, they persist in their unbelief, reject the gospel, reject general revelation, and spurn the general grace from God. The idea of the non-elect truly believing is complete nonsense in Calvinism, and it would be a denial of total depravity. Hence, this is an extremely flagrant straw man fallacy. What is in the blue quote above is simply not Calvinism.

I have said that it may indeed be a misconception that is derived from certain Calvinistic thinking.

As such, my contention is with that misconception and not necessarily an indictment on true Calvinism.

But even in recent moments, someone has purported this doctrine (will copy and paste shortly).

It would not have mattered how much Esau confessed Christ. God hated him.

My response, God hated him because He is outside of time and saw Esau's lack of faith, and despising of his birthright, before he was born.

If Esau would have chosen Christ, Christ would in no wise cast him out (John 6:37). But history is already written from a certain perspective of the Lord, who is outside of time.

 

[ReverendRV]

Perhaps. How are they different?

They are different in that Prevenient Grace is Efficacious in thwarting Total Depravity, and lessening its scope to that of Nominal Depravity. In essence, Prevenient Grace changes Arminians into Provisionists; who can then access Subsequent Grace of their own Free Will...

Common Grace is the Favor of God for All, without being Efficacious in Salvation...

 

[justbyfaith]

They are different in that Prevenient Grace is Efficacious in thwarting Total Depravity, and lessening its scope to that of Nominal Depravity. In essence, Prevenient Grace changes Arminians into Provisionists; who can then access Subsequent Grace of their own Free Will...

Common Grace is the Favor of God for All, without being Efficacious in Salvation...

So, prevenient grace happens when the Holy Spirit is drawing a man to Christ.

 

[ReverendRV]

So, prevenient grace happens when the Holy Spirit is drawing a man to Christ.

Yes...

And Calvin's Irresistible Grace is also Prevenient, because it also occurs before Faith...

 

[justbyfaith]

Yes...

And Calvin's Irresistible Grace is also Prevenient, because it also occurs before Faith...

Except Irresistible Grace is not the reality.

Because Universalism is not the reality (Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50, 25:46)

And Limited Atonement is not the reality (1 John 2:2).

If Irresistible Grace were the reality, one of those two things is the only obvious conclusion.

But neither of those things is the reality; and therefore Irresistible Grace is not the reality.

Therefore, grace can be resisted; even as the Holy Ghost can be resisted (Acts 7:51).

 

[ReverendRV]

Except Irresistible Grace is not the reality.

Because Universalism is not the reality (Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50, 25:46)

And Limited Atonement is not the reality (1 John 2:2).

If Irresistible Grace were the reality, one of those two things is the only obvious conclusion.

But neither of those things is the reality; and therefore Irresistible Grace is not the reality.

Therefore, grace can be resisted; even as the Holy Ghost can be resisted (Acts 7:51).

In Provisionism, Grace is resistible. But in Provisionism, Common Grace is Irresistible. Therfore, the precedent that Saving Grace can be Irresistible has legs to stand on...

Systematic Theology will have you accept that there is no one who does Good, no not One. I would have you believe that accepting Jesus Christ as your LORD and Savior; is something Good you do...

To avoid the contradiction, you should believe before God's Efficacious Grace is shed on Thee; you can't do Good. But after Efficacious Grace? Sure, you can do Good...

 

[justbyfaith]

I have said that it may indeed be a misconception that is derived from certain Calvinistic thinking.

As such, my contention is with that misconception and not necessarily an indictment on true Calvinism.

But even in recent moments, someone has purported this doctrine (will copy and paste shortly).



My response, God hated him because He is outside of time and saw Esau's lack of faith, and despising of his birthright, before he was born.

If Esau would have chosen Christ, Christ would in no wise cast him out (John 6:37). But history is already written from a certain perspective of the Lord, who is outside of time.

The reality is of course that if anyone receives Christ, they are of the elect.

Let us focus in on this reality and seek to win people to Christ instead of giving them reasons to believe that they might not be saved even if they receive Christ (as, whether you like it or not, that is a logical conclusion of Calvinism; although it may indeed be a misconception).

 

[justbyfaith]

In Provisionism, Grace is resistible. But even in Provisionism, Common Grace is Irresistible. Therfore, the precedent that Saving Grace can be Irresistible has legs to stand on...

Systematic Theology will have you accept that there is no one who does Good, no not One. I would have you believe that accepting Jesus Christ as your LORD and Savior; is something Good you do...

To avoid the contradiction, you should believe that before God's Efficacious Grace is shed on Thee; you can't do Good. But after Efficacious Grace? Sure, you can do Good...

inability is overcome when a person is drawn to Christ.

So, when the Holy Spirit is drawing a man, he becomes able to do what is good and receive Christ.

 

[ReverendRV]

The reality is of course that if anyone receives Christ, they are of the elect.

Let us focus in on this reality and seek to win people to Christ instead of giving them reasons to believe that they might not be saved even if they receive Christ (as, whether you like it or not, that is a logical conclusion of Calvinism; although it may indeed be a misconception).

Do you realize this statement means you're not Saved by Grace; even if you are right about Faith being Prevenient?

You are saying Election is due to Reception. That means Grace is Merited Favor, not Unmerited Favor. What you'll want is to find a Biblical way to teach Salvation by Merited Favor. You'll need to change the definition of Grace...

 

[ReverendRV]

inability is overcome when a person is drawn to Christ.

So, when the Holy Spirit is drawing a man, he becomes able to do what is good and receive Christ.

Jeff Foxworthy ~ If you believe that when the Holy Spirit is drawing a Man, this Man becomes able to do what is Good and receive Christ; you might be a Calvinist

 

[Arial]

I will only say that there is a specific doctrine in Calvinism that is not conducive to assurance.

It is the idea that one might do what it takes to obtain salvation and yet be cast away for that the person is of the non-elect.

There is that obtuseness again.

I am certain that many of you will again deny that this is a doctrine of Calvinism.

They all will. Why do you think you know more about the doctrine than they do? Why are you not interested to actually learn the doctrines from them? Why does it not bother you to continue to lie about it?

You have to do that because that doctrine is distinctly refuted by John 6:37.

You have been shown how that is not so. Why do you act like you haven't been?

Perhaps it is only a misconception about Calvinism.

It is your misconception about Calvinism.

If it is, then I believe I have done my job in that I have cleared it up.

It is your misconceptions that have been cleared up. Not for you of course, because then how would you spend your time? You are actually just trolling.

 

[Arial]

Perhaps it is in fact self-proclaimed...

(who will proclaim it if I don't?)

However, there is substantiation to my authority in Christ.

Arrogance and delusion is more apt. The Holy Spirit could not have revealed to you what you say because if He did He would be lying. And Christ has given you no authority.

 

[Arial]

Yep, The Holy Ghost is absolutely promised to me because I received baptism in Jesus Name (Acts 2:38-39).

You, too, can have the same unction.

Not everything you believe and think is the unction of the Holy Spirit. So here you reveal that you also do not understand the work of the Holy Spirit in the believer, or how He works in the believer. And Jesus was actually speaking to the disciples, those who would lay the foundation (doctrines) of His church, and is the same things we read in the epistles.

 

[Arial]

Of course there is a decision that has to be made.

"Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

Certainly not,

"Whosoever is saved shall call on the name of the Lord."

The only whosoevers who call on the name of the Lord are the elect. What do you think it means by call on the name of the Lord?

 

[Arial]

But being saved is not dependent on doing those things; and therefore one can be saved without them, technically.

There is no technically involved, Only truth. But make up your mind. Are you saved because you did what was necessary to be saved or not? If so then something is necessary before we are saved. In which case we have to "buy" our salvation.

 

[Arial]

God certainly has the power to do what He wills to do; except that He has exalted freedom as a virtue of His kingdom (2 Corinthians 3:17) and therefore He makes freedom more important than His own will in the matter. His will that His children be free is more important than His will that they be saved.

Because to be saved, we must receive Him as Lord.

God is not going to force anyone to be His subject.

The Bible says, "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power."

Your theology and knowledge of the Bible is wanting and you simply make up things instead of finding things out. The Bibles does not say or present any of the above. You are building your doctrine out of the image of God you are building. Out of wood and straw.

 

[Arial]

If that is the case, then one is saved because of what they did to procure salvation.

That is your doctrine, not mine.

If a person is not saved through what they did, then they can be saved apart from it.

That is right. It is why God says, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and compassion on whom I have compassion." He saves. He chooses. He gives.

 

[Arial]

After anyone chooses Christ, they are sealed by the Holy Spirit. That Spirit is a motivation to stay in the faith and He is the One who keeps us. But He will not give the Spirit to someone who does not receive Him as Lord.

Jesus tells us that the Father gives some people to Him, so specific and individual is that that we are called the sheep of His pasture. And He says that all those the Father gives Him will come to Him. It never says to choose Him. Not ever. Not once. In fact it says no one can come to Him unless the Father gives them, and that all the Father gives will be raised up at the last day. It says those who believe are saved. Not those who decide to believe or those that choose Him. Those the Father gives are placed in Him by the Holy Spirit and are sealed in Him by the Holy Spirit. That is why they believe, and the only reason they desire Christ and the only reason they call Him Lord.