The god of Calvinism's arbitrary decision.

[justbyfaith]

Did she say that? She shouldn't have. Are you sure?

I'm uncertain what you are talking about. Who are you referring to as "she"?

And, what did she say?

 

[justbyfaith]

Wrong...

Give documentation.

 

[ReverendRV]

Hearing the gospel comes in steps.

If the Aztecs would have obeyed the light of creation (Romans 1) and conscience (Romans 2), the light of Christ (Romans 3) would not be far behind.

The fact is, the Gospel was far, far away. You are trying too hard, and are exposed. I think you are Tom...

 

[ReverendRV]

Give documentation.

Nah, you're exposed...

Moderators will not let you keep this up much longer...

Just start Debating, and you'll have plenty of fun...

 

[justbyfaith]

The fact is, the Gospel was far, far away. You are trying too hard, and are exposed. I think you are Tom...

Who is Tom? I am Geoffrey.

 

[Eleanor]

Technically, you cannot be a recipient of grace until or unless you come into grace through faith.

Grammatically, that is not in agreement with the text.

Grammatically, the subject is grace, the verb is saved and the object is you. . .the means (through which grace saves) is faith.

 

[CCShorts]

Some have contended that the decision of the god of Calvinism to send certain people to hell isn't arbitrary. I give them the opportunity here to back up their statements.

The problem is due to a misrepresentation that assumes that falsley assumes election is based on criteria that is revealed in time but this is a misunderstanding on all sides of what biblical "election" is. God does not choose individules "in time". God makes all things for his purpose:

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble.

 

[Mr GLee]

So, you interpret it as "if you are saved, you will confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe that God rose Him from the dead".

I'm sorry, but that scripture doesn't put it in that order.

That seems to be the order .If you are saved .If not there would be nothing to confess as coming from the Lord.

What kind of order do you suggest?

 

[makesends]

The old "I'm rubber and you're glue" tactic?

That won't work because I understand the verses in question and can clearly point out where your misunderstanding lies. It is that you don't understand the meaning of the word "through"...

And it is that you don't see that when it says that we have access by faith into grace, that we come into grace through faith...and that therefore faith is a stop on the way to entering into grace...it is in fact the avenue by which we enter into grace.

I think that it is plain for anyone to see who has an I.Q. over 70...

However, the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.

We would do well to dispense with the insult trading and demeaning. It only clouds the arguments anyway.

Grammatically, the sentence reads that: Salvation is by Grace; Salvation is through Faith. The one thing it does NOT say is that Grace is through faith.

So, then, when we have access by faith into the grace in which we stand, it is referring to Salvation, which is by Grace. It does not show us being given grace because we had faith, but implies (bringing context and other passages to bear) that it is because of the will of God. WE PRODUCE NOTHING of ourselves.

 

[justbyfaith]

I will not be posting in this section any longer.

Evidently, the things I happen to say are offensive to the Calvinist moderators who privily lurk behind the scenes; and there is no point to posting a message if it is merely going to be deleted for that reason.

So, I will not be posting on this issue any longer.

I consider that it is a waste of time.

And also, I think that I am wise to do what Paul says to do concerning those who preach another gospel in Galatians 1:6-9...and to not seek to win them to Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

I can give these people the benefit of the doubt and consider that what they have done in the past, they may not do in the future...

Perhaps they will become sensitive to the Holy Spirit so that they will not be inclined to delete certain words that are typed under the direction of the Holy Spirit?

 

[justbyfaith]

That seems to be the order .If you are saved .If not there would be nothing to confess as coming from the Lord.

What kind of order do you suggest?

The clear order in Romans 10:9 is that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (as the result of those two things).

 

[justbyfaith]

The one thing it does NOT say is that Grace is through faith.

We may have to agree to disagree here.

If we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, then we enter into grace through faith.

I would say also that grace = salvation.

 

[justbyfaith]

I will not be posting in this section any longer.

Num 23:19, God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

It just goes to show that I am not God and do not claim to be God.

 

[Mr GLee]

The clear order in Romans 10:9 is that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (as the result of those two things).

Faith the mystery word

I would offer keeping the Ephesian 2 principle in mind the same as Philippians 2. God working to in us that have no faith that could please empowering us to "both" give us ears to hear his understanding and a new born again heart by which we can do His will to his glory alone

Justified by His faith as a labor of his love alone .

No boasting in false pride (I did it, I heard the words coming from my mouth it proves I am saved) That it appears is the one witness of one's self as pride. . called strange fire in the Old Testament as selfish pride

We are saved by Christ our invisible God through His labor of love or called a work of His faith .As dying mankind under a curse we have "no faith" as power that could please God, of our own living in bodies subject to death (its appointed once to die the life we are living we are informed is just as good as dead.

Yes, if we are given the ears to hear the gospel and power to believe then will we empowered can confess it was the power of God working in us .How beautiful are the feet that bring the breath of new life.

A good example of the faith as power of Christ spoken of through the prophet apostle Jesus in action.


John 20:19-22 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Not receive the oxygen from the Son of man,Jesus but the unseen power of the father

It was not the Son of man Jesus living in a earthen body of death who came to do the will of our Holy father that breathed on them But the father according to His law of faith ."Let there be salvation" as God give you born again power you then can confess two walking together in agreement . The father and Son of man . the witness of two..

Two according to His law of faith "let there be" and "it was good" served with Thomas. By mouth of one witness no man can be convicted of death (Deuteronomy 17:6)

The second time as a witness. . the first he hid himself in preparation for Thomas .

John 20: 23-26 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

Many turn that parable upside down and say the flesh is the witness and not the unseen spiritual of word word of life giving Spirit

Thomas was empowered to believe the loving Commandment of the living word Be not faithless but rather believe .Then Thomas moved gave glory to the unseen Holy Father.

John 20:27-30 Then saith he (the Father speaking through his prophet Jesus the Son of man ) to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

Beware of signs to wonder after. Believer have Prophecy sealed with 7 seals til the last day under the Sun.

There our Holy Father curses the idea no faith that could please or dead faith having one witness. . what the eyes see the temporal corrupted.

 

[justbyfaith]

No boasting in false pride (I did it, I heard the words coming from my mouth it proves I am saved) That it appears is the one witness of one's self as pride. . called strange fire in the Old Testament as selfish pride

No, it is not pride to trust in the fact that God's promises are true;

and that therefore, if thou shalt confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus, believing in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (Romans 10:9).

That therefore, Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13).

It is an accusation coming from the accuser of the brethren.

Rev 12:9, And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10, And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11, And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

 

[Mr GLee]

No, it is not pride to trust in the fact that God's promises are true;

and that therefore, if thou shalt confess with my mouth the Lord Jesus, believing in thine heart that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved (Romans 10:9).

That therefore, Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved (Romans 10:13).

It is an accusation coming from the accuser of the brethren.

Rev 12:9, And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10, And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11, And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Hi Thanks

I was not trying to say it was pride. God's faith is not of ourselves. Its God's faith that works in us empowering us to both hear and empower dying mankind to believe and finish it to his good pleasure .( Philippians 2:13-14) Jesus the Son of man did the will empowered by the father with delight.

Yoked with him he comforts us with words that speak of the better thing that acompanies salvation from the first moment given faith to believe in a God not seen .He promises that he will not forget the goods works we can miraculously offer in the power of His name or faith .Unlike the faithless ones thorns of judgement no fruit

Hebrews 6:7-10 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God: But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak. For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

The better thing.. . . a good job Abba Father hug.

 

[David1701]

Some have contended that the decision of the god of Calvinism to send certain people to hell isn't arbitrary. I give them the opportunity here to back up their statements.

Since those who go to hell, in Calvinism, don't have a choice in the matter, how is God's decision to cast them into hell not arbitrary.

Those who are elected to salvation are elected unconditionally;

And therefore there is also no condition (other than God's will) that sends certain people to hell.

How is that not an arbitrary decision?

I have been accused of misrepresenting Calvinsim by speaking of these things.

But is not what I am saying logical?

But it is not language that the Calvinist would like to be applied to his doctrine.

Why is that?

Is it not because it is a true indictment on what is believed by the Calvinist?

This is not only a blasphemous thread, but you have also indulged in a false equivalence. Election to salvation is unconditional, but the people who are sent to hell are condemned by their own words and works.

 

[ReverendRV]

I will not be posting in this section any longer.

Evidently, the things I happen to say are offensive to the Calvinist moderators who privily lurk behind the scenes; and there is no point to posting a message if it is merely going to be deleted for that reason.

So, I will not be posting on this issue any longer.

I consider that it is a waste of time.

And also, I think that I am wise to do what Paul says to do concerning those who preach another gospel in Galatians 1:6-9...and to not seek to win them to Christ.

What I suggest is to debate. When you make an irrefutable point, press it. It's also as important that when someone else makes an irrefutable point, accept it. If a point is not accepted by either side, stop and hash the point out until both sides accept it...

As Civic said, people should have a Dialectic Debate, instead of having a fight or an argument. Think about it; we have Dialectic Debates with ourselves, in order to develop our personal paradigm. We weigh points against other points in our heads all the time. Why not Reason together, instead of alone?

 

[Eleanor]

We may have to agree to disagree here.

If we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, then we enter into grace through faith.

I would say also that grace = salvation.

That is precisely what he is saying, and what the NT teaches throughout.

What do we enter into?. . .we enter into grace (salvation).

How do we enter into grace?. . .by (through) faith.

grace (salvation) <-- faith

Grace saves by faith.