The god of Calvinism's arbitrary decision.

[justbyfaith]

Are you Tom?

No.

We have access to a Subsidiary Grace, through our Faith; not access to the Preliminary Grace of Illumination or Regeneration, through our Faith...

Prevenient grace comes to every man apart from faith (Matthew 5:45).

We have access to saving grace by faith; we are saved by grace through faith..

 

[justbyfaith]

If you were a Calvinist you would not consider this to even be an issue.You would know that you wouldn't choose Him and were turned away. You wouldn't even be thinking of salvation in terms of your own choices. When you make the statement you make above, do you not see that it is you who is the center of the universe and not God? So much so, you tell Him in what ways He must be, and in what way He must relate to you, and your feelings on any given subject or action. He must define things according to you.

Rom 8:29 You have determined what is meant by foreknew by what you already believe and have been told for it is another of the alterations made to fit, that is taught in the free will camp. Rather than the proper way to determine the meaning of the scripture, which is from the whole counsel of God and through not predetermining what you want something to mean. If foreknew meant God looked down the annals of history and saw that you would choose Him, it makes a nonsense mockery of the other words used. "called" and "according to His purpose" in verse 28. "Predestined," and "called" in verse 30.

1 Peter 2:2 Foreknowledge according to your definition would make a nonsense mocker of the words, "elect," in verse 1, "chosen." "through the sanctifying work of the Spirit" in verse 2. And His purpose in "to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with His blood."

The way you use foreknowledge has God doing only what you already will do yourself. And picking you on that merit. It takes God pretty much out of the picture. As you said earlier, tosses the ball into our court, and works His purposes according to us.

1) God did not choose me on the basis of merit but on the basis of a decision that I made to receive Him.

2) the word "called" is interesting in scripture; for there is a conditional promise in Acts 2:38-39 that is given to "as many as the Lord our God shall call." iow, as many as are called will fulfill the condition of the promise and will thus lay hold of the promise.

 

[justbyfaith]

Trust me, that doesn't work.

You can't make yourself believe what you don't really believe.

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

Reading or hearing the word of the Lord, a person might become convinced of the truth and come to faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

You are saved by grace. . .through faith (Eh 2:8-9).
Grace is the source, faith is the means.

No grace, no faith.

Actually, no faith, no grace.

Faith is the avenue that we walk down in order to obtain grace.

 

[ReverendRV]

No.

Prevenient grace comes to every man apart from faith (Matthew 5:45).

We have access to saving grace by faith; we are saved by grace through faith..

So what's your issue then? By definition, Prevenient Grace comes before Faith; this is what Prevenient means...

If Faith goes before Grace, you are Saved by Postvenient Grace; right? 2 cannot Logically Prevene 1. When you say Faith is Prevenient, you can't believe in Prevenient Grace...

 

[justbyfaith]

A person who does not do what is necessary of one who has been saved, has not been saved.

If that is the case, then one is saved because of what they did to procure salvation.

If a person is not saved through what they did, then they can be saved apart from it.

 

[justbyfaith]

If God is not willing that any should perish according to the way you are interpreting that scripture, then you have a God who is powerless to do what He wills to do. Not only that, but one who has determined that the work and death of Jesus is entirely dependant for effectiveness on human creatures. A God who puts their will above His and above the substitutionary work of His Son. Does that seem reasonable?

God certainly has the power to do what He wills to do; except that He has exalted freedom as a virtue of His kingdom (2 Corinthians 3:17) and therefore He makes freedom more important than His own will in the matter. His will that His children be free is more important than His will that they be saved.

Because to be saved, we must receive Him as Lord.

God is not going to force anyone to be His subject.

The Bible says, "Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power."

 

[justbyfaith]

It was meant to say that you have not shown that your faith is not meritorious. I will edit it.

What a pile of illogical arguments you post.

You did not need to do those things in order to be saved. Someone who is saved, will do those things. I don't see where you give any glory to God, it is all about what we do and who we are. I see no evidence that you have any idea what God Himself works in us. It is as though Jesus suffered and died and rose again and all the rest of your walk in Him is up to your. As though He saved (correction you saved, He only did the necessary work and at unimaginable cost to Himself, but you gave it its power by choosing Him) and then left us as orphans.

But being saved is not dependent on doing those things; and therefore one can be saved without them, technically.

After anyone chooses Christ, they are sealed by the Holy Spirit. That Spirit is a motivation to stay in the faith and He is the One who keeps us. But He will not give the Spirit to someone who does not receive Him as Lord.

 

[justbyfaith]

Is that all that matters about salvation? Is that the only thing it does?

Of course not!

 

[justbyfaith]

No, grace is the (first) cause, which operates through the avenue (means) of faith.

"It is by grace you have been saved, through faith, and this not of yourself, of the gift of God." (Eph 2:8-9)

Grammatically, the subject is grace, the verb is saved and the object is you. . .the means (through which grace saves) is faith.

No, grace stands as an eternal great fountain into which, during time, we have access through faith.

I think that you have blinders on. You don't seem to understand what it means that we are saved through faith.

It would be evident to anyone with an I.Q. over 70.

However, the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God.

 

[justbyfaith]

Then what does believe in your heart mean? You are right in saying there does not need to be "integrity of decision." There is no decision mentioned or necessary in order to be saved. The wind blows where it will and no one knows where it comes from or where it is going.

Of course there is a decision that has to be made.

"Whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

Certainly not,

"Whosoever is saved shall call on the name of the Lord."

 

[justbyfaith]

So now you are appealing to the logical fallacy of, "I justbyfaith, have had God speak to me and tell me that I know all things according to that scripture, and therefore I am right, and you are wrong." Can you prove this unction from the Holy Spirit that you speak of?

Yep, The Holy Ghost is absolutely promised to me because I received baptism in Jesus Name (Acts 2:38-39).

You, too, can have the same unction.

 

[justbyfaith]

So what's your issue then? By definition, Prevenient Grace comes before Faith; this is what Prevenient means...

If Faith goes before Grace, you are Saved by Postvenient Grace; right? 2 cannot Logically Prevene 1. When you say Faith is Prevenient, you can't believe in Prevenient Grace...

Prevenient grace is not the same as saving faith.

We have access by faith into saving grace; therefore faith comes first.

 

[ReverendRV]

Prevenient grace is not the same as saving faith.

We have access by faith into saving grace; therefore faith comes first.

So Prevenient Grace is Moot then?

 

[justbyfaith]

Self-proclaimed authority here?

Yep.

Perhaps it is in fact self-proclaimed...

(who will proclaim it if I don't?)

However, there is substantiation to my authority in Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

So Prevenient Grace is Moot then?

I didn't say that. Prevenient grace is not saving grace.

It is simply the favour of God bestowed on every man.

Is every man saved?

However, God is kind to everyone.

 

[ReverendRV]

I didn't say that. Prevenient grace is not saving grace.

It is simply the favour of God bestowed on every man.

Is every man saved?

However, God is kind to everyone.

Are you mistaking Prevenient Grace with Common Grace?

 

[justbyfaith]

Is the display of obtuseness real or is just maintained so you can keep on attacking Calvinism and Calvinists? No matter how wrong you have to be as to the actual theology and doctrines in it, in order to do so?

If you believed the theology of and doctrines in Calvinism, there would be no reason to doubt your salvation. You would know what it is you believe about Jesus, and you would know that the only reason you do believe is because God elected you to salvation and brought you to that belief in Jesus by regeneration (a new creation in Christ),so that when you heard the gospel you believed it. You would rest in the reconciliation that Jesus made for you with God, knowing it was God who did it, and not your own wonderful and wise self, who has a fallen heart at enmity with God, and deceitful above all else.

All those who are saved should from time to time contemplate just how poor and needy we are, and recognize that we never operate independently of God but always are in need of His fountain of grace and mercy. Stop relying on our own righteousness and remember whose robe we wear. That daily we need to feast on the Bread of Life and come to Him for the living water to drink.

If you were a Calvinist you would not be always turning to what you did that caused God to save you, trusting in what you did for your security. You would simply trust God. That is one of the things I am most grateful for. I can trust Him and not myself. I know how wretched, prone to unfaithfulness, and unreliable in the things of God, I am. But it is not me up to God, it is God down to me. That is His love. And He is faithful, perfectly and always and in all things.

I will only say that there is a specific doctrine in Calvinism that is not conducive to assurance.

It is the idea that one might do what it takes to obtain salvation and yet be cast away for that the person is of the non-elect.

I am certain that many of you will again deny that this is a doctrine of Calvinism.

You have to do that because that doctrine is distinctly refuted by John 6:37.

Perhaps it is only a misconception about Calvinism.

If it is, then I believe I have done my job in that I have cleared it up.

 

[ReverendRV]

I will only say that there is a specific doctrine in Calvinism that is not conducive to assurance.

It is the idea that one might do what it takes to obtain salvation and yet be cast away for that the person is of the non-elect.

I am certain that many of you will again deny that this is a doctrine of Calvinism.

You have to do that because that doctrine is distinctly refuted by John 6:37.

Perhaps it is only a misconception about Calvinism.

If it is, then I believe I have done my job in that I have cleared it up.

Calvinism says that?

Where?

Can you substantiate this? Can you tell us about the Perseverance of the Saints? It is TULIP after all...

Therefore, anyone who believes they can Lose their Salvation can't be a Calvinist; right? By definition, they CANNOT hold to TULIP...

 

[His clay]

I will only say that there is a specific doctrine in Calvinism that is not conducive to assurance.

It is the idea that one might do what it takes to obtain salvation and yet be cast away for that the person is of the non-elect.

I am certain that many of you will again deny that this is a doctrine of Calvinism.

You have to do that because that doctrine is distinctly refuted by John 6:37.

Perhaps it is only a misconception about Calvinism.

If it is, then I believe I have done my job in that I have cleared it up.

Regarding the second line, "It is the idea that one might do what it takes to obtain salvation and yet be cast away for that person is of the non-elect."

The above quote is a total straw man. If they are not of the elect, then by definition they are not going to "do what it takes to obtain salvation." The meaning of those not chosen are those who are not removed from their unbelief. Hence, they persist in their unbelief, reject the gospel, reject general revelation, and spurn the general grace from God. The idea of the non-elect truly believing is complete nonsense in Calvinism, and it would be a denial of total depravity. Hence, this is an extremely flagrant straw man fallacy. What is in the blue quote above is simply not Calvinism.