• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

The False Gospel of Grace...

They are perfected forever because they wear the robes of Christ's righteousness. The practical sanctification is what it happens as we grow in the knowledge of God.

King James Bible
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
English Standard Version
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Do you know why there is a difference? 1. Because Christians do sin. 2. It is the natural result of the context it is in and what John is talking about.

I'm not doing the rest of your post. I am in a place where am fed up with the fact that it seems many are not the least bit interested in anything but incessant arguing. As to 2 Tim 4:3 stop with the judgment of condemnation. It is what unbelievers hate most about the self righteous zealots that try to convert them by condemning with quoted Bible verses. You are not the judge. And you have no business condemning people.
I am not condemning anyone, I am doing what I can to save people.

We ought to begin with 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24 and then go to Hebrews 10:14.

There, it is clear that in Hebrews 10:14, He has perfected for ever those who have been sanctified wholly.

My quotation of 2 Timothy 4:3 is intended to deter you from trusting in teachers who might try to tell you what your itching ears want to hear. You do that when you read something in the kjv and say, "I don't like that....what does this translation say?" then you go to it and say, "I like that much better" and out of that you decide that it is a better translation.

But what you have done is that you have heaped to yourself teachers in the translators of other versions to tell you what you want to hear.

In this you are seeking to have your ears tickled instead of seeking God's unadulterated truth.

I would say that it is important to have the truth in a form that is not watered down if you are going to have real salvation as it is proclaimed in the holy scriptures. The way to life is in fact narrow and there are few who actually find it (Matthew 7:13-14). Am I now condemning you by quoting a scripture that teaches that maybe you aren't saved? I don't think so. I think that there is an excellent exhortation here:

2Pe 1:10, Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

I encourage you to work out your salvation therefore with fear and trembling, as the above scripture tells you to do.

For it is written again,

2Co 13:5, Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
 
Of course I'm not saying that Christ's righteousness isn't imputed.

But I will say that Christ's perfect, practical righteousness is also imparted as a free gift.

If we "do" righteousness, we are righteous, "even as He is righteous" (1 John 3:7).
I disagree, Christs Practical Righteousness is imputed as a free gift, Imparted righteousness is the New Birth. Now to do righteousness is live each day looking to Christ, realizing that He is our righteousness, for it is written, the Just shall live by Faith
 
I disagree, Christs Practical Righteousness is imputed as a free gift, Imparted righteousness is the New Birth. Now to do righteousness is live each day looking to Christ, realizing that He is our righteousness, for it is written, the Just shall live by Faith
Imparted righteousness is a free gift that is given to us (see Ezekiel 36:27, Philippians 2:13, Romans 5:19, Galatians 2:20, Matthew 5:6) so that we begin to do righteousness and in this we become righteous even as He is righteous (1 John 3:7); even in the practical sense.

I agree that this is by faith and not by the works of the law.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It is what unbelievers hate most about the self righteous zealots that try to convert them by condemning with quoted Bible verses.
Consider that these are characteristics of those who are truly born again.

Mat 5:10, Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11, Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12, Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.


Luk 6:22, Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Luk 6:23, Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

2Ti 3:10, But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti 3:11, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Ti 3:12, Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.


Mat 10:22, And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mar 13:13, And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Luk 21:17, And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

It was prophesied of Jesus in His own coming that,

Mal 3:1, Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2, But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3, And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Consider that these are characteristics of those who are truly born again.

Mat 5:10, Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:11, Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12, Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.


Luk 6:22, Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.
Luk 6:23, Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

2Ti 3:10, But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti 3:11, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Ti 3:12, Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.


Mat 10:22, And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mar 13:13, And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Luk 21:17, And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake.

It was prophesied of Jesus in His own coming that,

Mal 3:1, Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2, But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3, And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
????

Wonderful verses but what does it have to do with me asking you -----and a few others----to stop using Bible verses to condemn and judge the brethren?
 
Yes, it is the new birth.

So, you are not denying, in saying this, that it is referring to a practical righteousness imparted to the believer, are you?
The Believers Practical Righteousness is by Imputation, all the Righteousness needed and required by God for Salvation and acceptance with God is through Imputation. Now righteousness imparted is by means of the New birth, when we are given a new nature corresponding with our perfect righteous standing we have with God via Imputed righteousness. Imparted righteousness is Spiritual life, its not legal.

Now Im going to ask you this, do you believe a sinner Christ died for, shed His Blood for, is perfectly righteous before God before they believe, before they are born again, and while they are yet dead in sin and unbelieving enemies towards God ? Yes or No
 
My quotation of 2 Timothy 4:3 is intended to deter you from trusting in teachers who might try to tell you what your itching ears want to hear. You do that when you read something in the kjv and say, "I don't like that....what does this translation say?" then you go to it and say, "I like that much better" and out of that you decide that it is a better translation.
I don't need you to tell me that. And I don't read the KJV. And I don't wade through through translations looking for one that suits what I already believe. In fact mostly the accepted translations are all saying the same thing, just wording it different. The KJV is too but the archaic way of wording sometimes, case in point, causes a person to actually miss what is being said.

And isn't that what you just did when you pulled out your KJV scripture and called all the others false? Can you not acknowledge that when I quoted it back according you the meaning you gave it, that it made no sense and was in opposition to what is stated as the Christians certain hope? There is no shame in that. There is not a one of us who has not found themselves in the same boat about one thing or another.

The wrong thing to do is to shoot the messenger with personal accusations and attacks. And then continue to defend the indefensible position.
 
But what you have done is that you have heaped to yourself teachers in the translators of other versions to tell you what you want to hear.

In this you are seeking to have your ears tickled instead of seeking God's unadulterated truth.
And so what you said was not a judgement and accusation now becomes one again.I disagree with you. How does that conclude that I have "heaped to myself teachers in the translators of other versions to tell me what I want to hear." ?(You really need to rework that sentence.) How does my disagreeing with you mean I seek to have my ears tickled or that I am not seeking God's unadulterated truth? What makes you think you have any business reaching that conclusion, let alone make a public statement like that about me, when you don't even know me? All you know is that I disagree with you.
I would say that it is important to have the truth in a form that is not watered down if you are going to have real salvation as it is proclaimed in the holy scriptures. The way to life is in fact narrow and there are few who actually find it (Matthew 7:13-14). Am I now condemning you by quoting a scripture that teaches that maybe you aren't saved? I don't think so. I think that there is an excellent exhortation here:
Who determined that the KJV is the only translation that is not watered down? Is it maybe for some reason unknown to me that you simply prefer it, and therefore all others are watered down?

And yes, you are saying that in your mind I might not be saved. Which suggests that probably you should give your definition of what salvation entails, because if you have read the things I post, you would know that I am, even though I do not agree with you on much of your interpretation of scripture. That seems to be what you are measuring my salvation by. But let me give you a bit of insider information you are no doubt lacking. I am a seventy seven year old woman who joined the redeemed at age 35. And have never looked back or waffled in my faith. In my actions, sure, but not my faith. Truth has always been my goal, whether I liked it or not. And it is and always has been God's face I seek. So come down off the high horse and stop looking down your nose at people.
I encourage you to work out your salvation therefore with fear and trembling, as the above scripture tells you to do.
I am doing that and always have been. Who are you to suggest otherwise? It is something we are told in the scriptures to NOT do. You are accusing the brethren. You are weighing and measuring and judging against yourself, to calculate another's standing before God----and in a very condescending manner.
 
In Romans 3:20 Paul writes that no one can be justified through law-keeping.

A contradiction?

No; but Paul is saying that no one can keep the law perfectly; because only doers of the law are justified, AND, no one is justified through law-keeping = no one can keep the law (see also Galatians 6:13).
Paul denied that we can earn our justification as a wage by obeying God's law even if we manage to have perfect obedience to it (Romans 4:1-5), so the reason why we do not earn our justification by obeying it is not because we can't keep it perfectly, but because it was never given as way of earning our justification in the first place, which is why there are many verses that speak against it. However, it remains true that only doers of the law will be justified, so again there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified also uphold God's law (Romans 3:28-31).

In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience.

We are not under the law (as a set of moral tenets) as concerning condemnation.

Would you say that you think that you are under the law in that sense as concerning condemnation?

If so, then I would say that the law condemns you as a sinner and you desperately need the forgiveness of Christ.

It is when we are forgiven that we respond to the Lord in love (Luke 7:36-50) and the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us (Romans 13:8-10, 8:4).
We are under God's law insofar as we are obligated to obey it. In Romans 8:1, there is no condemnation for those who are Christ because he gave himself to pay the penalty for our sin, however, in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so there is only no condemnation for those who are walking in obedience to God's law.

Sin shall not have dominion over us because we are not under the law but under grace (Romans 6:14).

In Romans 7:7-13, we are taught that freedom from the law means that sin cannot use the law to produce in us all manner of concupiscence; thus causing us to sin.

Grace means that that "wet paint principle" is put in its proper place so that we can walk in freedom and victory over sin.
In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us, but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. In Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin, and sin is the transgression of God's law, so we are still under it. In Psalms 119:29, he wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, so that is what it means to be under grace. We need freedom from the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around.

Romans 7:12 is in the context of the rest of Romans 7. The law being spoken of in the chapter is the same law being spoken of in Romans 7:12.
Romans 7 goes back and forth with contrasting the Law of God with the law of sin. For example, in Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God and served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin which held him captive, and which he served with his flesh.

Christ disobeyed the law of God in John 5:16-18.
Sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so to suggest that Jesus disobeyed it is to say that he sinned and therefore to deny that he is our Savior. In John 5:16-18, it states the reasons that the Pharisees had for wanting to kill Jesus, but does not state whether their reasons were correct. It is contradictory to believe both that Jesus is correct about it being lawful to heal on the Sabbath and that the Pharisees were correct about Jesus breaking the Sabbath by healing on it. It has always been lawful to heal on the Sabbath, so the Pharisees were incorrect for thinking that Jesus had broken the Sabbath, but it is nevertheless factual that thinking that Jesus had broken the Sabbath was one of their reasons for why they wanted to kill Jesus

However, His coming was not after a carnal commandment but after the power of an endless life.

There being a change in priesthood, there was also by necessity a change in law.

Christ only disobeyed the letter; not the spirit of what is written.
The set of laws that someone has given paint is a picture of their character. For example, we can see that someone is wise by seeing that they have given wise laws, we can see that they are just by seeing that they have given just laws, and so forth, while a wise person does not given foolish laws, but rather only a fool gives foolish laws. So the Mosaic Law paints us a picture of the character of the God of Israel, and if He had instead commanded things like to commit murder or adultery, then that would have painted a very different picture of His character. If the New Covenant involves following a different set of laws than the Law of Moses, then it involves following a different God with a different set of Character traits than the God of Israel. However, the reality is that the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jeremiah 31:33, Ezekiel 36:26-27), so it is made with the same God.

God's righteousness is eternal (Psalms 119:142), therefore all of His laws for how to testify about His righteousness are also eternal (Psalms 119:160), so Hebrews 7:12 could not be referring to a change of the law in regard to its content, such as with it becoming righteous to commit murder or adultery, but rather the context is speaking about a change of the priesthood, which would also require a change of the law in regard to its administration.
 
Christ disobeyed the law of God in John 5:16-18.

However, His coming was not after a carnal commandment but after the power of an endless life.

There being a change in priesthood, there was also by necessity a change in law.

Christ only disobeyed the letter; not the spirit of what is written.
Its Blasphemous to say Jesus disobeyed the Law of God. Religionist thought He disobeyed the Sabbath Day Law as well
 
????

Wonderful verses but what does it have to do with me asking you -----and a few others----to stop using Bible verses to condemn and judge the brethren?
Because you said doing that is what makes Christians to be hated by the world.

I was simply mentioning that being hated by the world is the natural state of every born again believer; and that therefore doing what will make me to be hated by the world is not necessarily a wrong thing to do.
 
The Believers Practical Righteousness is by Imputation, all the Righteousness needed and required by God for Salvation and acceptance with God is through Imputation. Now righteousness imparted is by means of the New birth, when we are given a new nature corresponding with our perfect righteous standing we have with God via Imputed righteousness. Imparted righteousness is Spiritual life, its not legal.

Now Im going to ask you this, do you believe a sinner Christ died for, shed His Blood for, is perfectly righteous before God before they believe, before they are born again, and while they are yet dead in sin and unbelieving enemies towards God ? Yes or No
Of course not.

They are enabled to receive Christ when the Holy Spirit shall draw them to Christ (John 6:44, John 12:32).
 
I don't need you to tell me that. And I don't read the KJV. And I don't wade through through translations looking for one that suits what I already believe. In fact mostly the accepted translations are all saying the same thing, just wording it different. The KJV is too but the archaic way of wording sometimes, case in point, causes a person to actually miss what is being said.

And isn't that what you just did when you pulled out your KJV scripture and called all the others false? Can you not acknowledge that when I quoted it back according you the meaning you gave it, that it made no sense and was in opposition to what is stated as the Christians certain hope? There is no shame in that. There is not a one of us who has not found themselves in the same boat about one thing or another.

The wrong thing to do is to shoot the messenger with personal accusations and attacks. And then continue to defend the indefensible position.
But it seemed to me that in quoting the ESV, you were saying that the ESV is better and that the kjv is invalid. Why not just accept what the Bible says in the kjv? For it is indeed inspired and inerrant.
 
Because you said doing that is what makes Christians to be hated by the world.

I was simply mentioning that being hated by the world is the natural state of every born again believer; and that therefore doing what will make me to be hated by the world is not necessarily a wrong thing to do.
Except that it is the wrong thing to do. It is wrong according to God to do it to the brethren. And it is lack of wisdom to preach the gospel to someone by quoting Bible verses as condemnation of them. It is what makes much of the world see Christians as a bunch of self righteous holier than thou and hypocritical. Because the ones that are self righteous, holier than thou, and hypocritical go around doing that. And it is just as self righteous, holier than thou, and hypocritical when they do it to other Christians too.
 
But it seemed to me that in quoting the ESV, you were saying that the ESV is better and that the kjv is invalid. Why not just accept what the Bible says in the kjv? For it is indeed inspired and inerrant.
I was quoting the ESV because it is the translation I am reading right now. Why not just accept what the Bible says in the ESV? People can read whatever translation they want to. It makes no difference to me. I don't like the KJV simply because I find the old fashioned language distracting. It is the word of God that is inspired and inerrant (which btw pertains to the truths it presents and their consistency throughout, not to clerical errors and such,) not translations.
 
Back
Top