By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

[brightfame52]

Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Now the Elect in their own persons by nature did incur wrath and the curse, as others, however thats the very thing that fell on Christ for them, which necessitated His Suretyship Heb 2:17, because the very wrath and curse they themselves incurred was true and actual.

Even though their sin actually brings about Gods wrath and curse for them, they were prevented by their transference unto Christ and His Suretyship, hence instead of them, He must drink of their due wrath and curse of the law in their behalf, for so we read 2 Cor 5:21;Gal 3:13;Heb 2:9-10 ! So therefore, though naturally, as others, they were being children of wrath, they because of Christs Suretyship, were never under Gods deserved Wrath and Curse ! If they were, that made Christs Suretyship null and void ! 2

 

[Arial]

Eph 2:3

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Now the Elect in their own persons by nature did incur wrath and the curse, as others, however thats the very thing that fell on Christ for them, which necessitated His Suretyship Heb 2:17, because the very wrath and curse they themselves incurred was true and actual.

Even though their sin actually brings about Gods wrath and curse for them, they were prevented by their transference unto Christ and His Suretyship, hence instead of them, He must drink of their due wrath and curse of the law in their behalf, for so we read 2 Cor 5:21;Gal 3:13;Heb 2:9-10 ! So therefore, though naturally, as others, they were being children of wrath, they because of Christs Suretyship, were never under Gods deserved Wrath and Curse ! If they were, that made Christs Suretyship null and void ! 2

Brightfame, I actually know what you are saying, and there is a sense in which it is true. You do not seem to understand what anyone else is saying---and so call them names and make awful accusations against them. I have come to suspect that the problem on your end is an articulation problem---which is something most of us wrestle with. We know precisely what is in our mind when we post something but fail to put the necessary substance of detail to it.

What has happened, and what others are arguing against, is that you have presented your view from the eternal perspective of the cross (the Covenant of Redemption before creation with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) as though there was no "plan" of redemption that unfolds progressively through time and history. Everything in the Bible,, and specifically here, in the NT, is the truths contained within that plan as applied first to Christ and then to the believer. IOW it is what Christ accomplished on the cross for the elect revealed and explained. What they possess in him as an inheritance. Paul, in Eph 2 is explaining what happened, in time. What we once were, and where all people stand before God by nature, and would remain there "But God..."

The way in which you express it, and therefore those who read your words take your words to mean, and maybe or maybe not you really believe, that any application of Christ's work to a person is unnecessary. Even though you also agree that those things happen (regeneration and faith which makes it very confusing). That is what is being argued against. In addition, you have created that doctrine, if it really is what you believe, by a misuse of the text. You missed its purpose.

I went to ChatGPT to find out how Calvin addressed Eph 2:3 because it was easier than searching countless links to find what I was looking for. I will put it in a separate post for the sake of shortening the length of this post.

 

[Arial]

@brightfame52 Calvin's comments.

“The word nature signifies that we are all born with a corrupt and depraved nature; and therefore we are all, in consequence of this, exposed to the wrath of God.” We are born under condemnation because our nature itself, in Adam is fallen (original sin, total depravity).

Purpose of the verse:

Calvin sees Eph 2:3 as the black background that makes grace in verses 4–5 (“But God, being rich in mercy…”) shine.

“Paul’s intention is to make us more fully sensible of the greatness of God’s mercy, by setting before us our wretchedness and condemnation.”
— ibid.

Humanity’s plight is so absolute that salvation must be entirely of grace — not self-reformation, but divine resurrection from spiritual death.
Thus, Eph 2:3 is for Calvin a concise description of humanity’s natural state: spiritually dead, enslaved to sin, and under wrath — until God’s regenerating grace intervenes.

In Summary​

Calvin’s interpretation of Ephesians 2:3:

• “By nature” = from birth, inherently corrupt, not merely habitually so.
• “Children of wrath” = deserving of divine judgment, not neutral creatures.
• The verse proves the necessity of grace and demolishes human pride.
• It exposes the depth of our fall to magnify the greatness of God’s mercy in salvation.

 

[makesends]

You either a vessel of wrath or a vessel of mercy according to Rom 9:20-23

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 ;Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Right. How does that prove your point? We know that God from the beginning made some for one purpose, the rest for another. So what?

Seems like it would make more sense to point to God's intention, and leave it at that.

 

[brightfame52]

Brightfame, I actually know what you are saying, and there is a sense in which it is true. You do not seem to understand what anyone else is saying---and so call them names and make awful accusations against them. I have come to suspect that the problem on your end is an articulation problem---which is something most of us wrestle with. We know precisely what is in our mind when we post something but fail to put the necessary substance of detail to it.

What has happened, and what others are arguing against, is that you have presented your view from the eternal perspective of the cross (the Covenant of Redemption before creation with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) as though there was no "plan" of redemption that unfolds progressively through time and history. Everything in the Bible,, and specifically here, in the NT, is the truths contained within that plan as applied first to Christ and then to the believer. IOW it is what Christ accomplished on the cross for the elect revealed and explained. What they possess in him as an inheritance. Paul, in Eph 2 is explaining what happened, in time. What we once were, and where all people stand before God by nature, and would remain there "But God..."

The way in which you express it, and therefore those who read your words take your words to mean, and maybe or maybe not you really believe, that any application of Christ's work to a person is unnecessary. Even though you also agree that those things happen (regeneration and faith which makes it very confusing). That is what is being argued against. In addition, you have created that doctrine, if it really is what you believe, by a misuse of the text. You missed its purpose.

I went to ChatGPT to find out how Calvin addressed Eph 2:3 because it was easier than searching countless links to find what I was looking for. I will put it in a separate post for the sake of shortening the length of this post.

You dont understand simply because you seem to believe the elect were at one time under the wrath of God. Thats absolutely wrong, even as by nature children of wrath as others, they were even then objects of Mercy Eph 2:3-5

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

4 ; But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

 

[brightfame52]

“The word nature signifies that we are all born with a corrupt and depraved nature; and therefore we are all, in consequence of this, exposed to the wrath of God.” We are born under condemnation because our nature itself, in Adam is fallen (original sin, total depravity).

Calvin is absolutely wrong. Also the elect are never ever born under condemnation, Christ was condemned in their place on the Cross, they are born Justified b4 God

 

[brightfame52]

Right. How does that prove your point?

Ive explained that, i cant help if you cant grasp it

 

[Arial]

Calvin is absolutely wrong. Also the elect are never ever born under condemnation, Christ was condemned in their place on the Cross, they are born Justified b4 God

I am just wondering if you did the work Calvin did to arrive at his interpretation. I can guarantee he wasn't just guessing or presupposing his preferences or lack of ability into it. But I guess you are much smarter than he was.

No point I guess in attempting to communicate with a brick wall.