By Nature Children of Wrath as others !

[Arial]

Never said they were objects of Wrath.

Do you deny the word of God even when it is put right in front of you? Three times as far as I know. At least three times.

 

[makesends]

Do you see where it says the wrath of God abides on an individual?

I'm guessing you meant to ask, on an elect individual. No, it does not say that. What's your point?

It DOES say that we were by nature children of wrath, just like the others. So far, I'm seeing you contradicting that.

 

[Josheb]

This is about the work of Christ, the Work of the Spirit wasn't to die for the sins of the elect

The work of the Spirit was to work in Christ so he would die for the sins of the elect. The two are not mutually exclusive conditions and if you think they are then you have a bad Christology, not just a bad anthropology.

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He grew and became strong in the Spirit. He was led into the wilderness by the Holy Spirit. It was the Spirit who bore the Father's declaration of sonship at his baptism. It was by the Spirit that he performed miracles, prophesied, and cast out demons. He said and did only that which his Father told him to do and say.... and that included death on the cross.


The work of Christ the work of the Spirit are NOT mutually exclusive conditions.


One of the most frequently employed fallacies in the defense of this op is that of the false dichotomy. The case for this op is poorly reasoned and, in some places, blatantly contrary to scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

I'm thinkin' you need to read Scripture to see what is stated there in Eph 2:3 regarding what the elect were before they came to faith.

They were ungodly B4 regeneration and the gift of Faith, that is not new. Yet they were not condemned and the objects of God's wrath/justice, but of His love and mercy Eph 2:4

 

[brightfame52]

It's not about what you say, it's about what Paul says. . .i.e., the elect ("we") were objects of wrath until they were born again through faith in Jesus Christ (Eph 2:3).

Paul never wrote that.

 

[brightfame52]

That was something Christ did with God. It was between the Father and Christ. That blood, that propitiation, must be applied to the believer

False it's not applied to the believer, it appeased God for them, period, even while they are ungodly and B4 they were born

 

[brightfame52]

Do you deny the word of God even when it is put right in front of you? Three times as far as I know. At least three times.

Ephesians 2:3 doesn't say anything about them being objects of God's wrath, that is your twist. Vs 4 -5 says they were objects of the love and mercy of God

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

So explain how they are objects of God's Wrath while dead in sin and His Great Love and mercy at the same time please

 

[brightfame52]

I'm guessing you meant to ask, on an elect individual. No, it does not say that. What's your point?

It DOES say that we were by nature children of wrath, just like the others. So far, I'm seeing you contradicting that.

Yes they were by nature children of wrath, their nature made them worthy of the wrath of God, and they were wrathful towards God by nature, but not the objects of God's wrath, impossible when you consider vs 4-5

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

 

[Arial]

Ephesians 2:3 doesn't say anything about them being objects of God's wrath, that is your twist. Vs 4 -5 says they were objects of the love and mercy of God

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

So explain how they are objects of God's Wrath while dead in sin and His Great Love and mercy at the same time please

They were dead in sin until he made them alive!

verse 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
the
That is a copy/paste from the ESV Bible translation. Do not deny that the Bible says the believer was a child of wrath until God made them alive, again.

 

[Arial]

False it's not applied to the believer, it appeased God for them, period, even while they are ungodly and B4 they were born

You make light of the work of Christ and make light of sin also. According to you, if a person is one of the elect they don't have to even hear about Christ, let alone believe he is who he says he is and did what he said he did.

I was once on a forum where a person hated Calvinism because he said it denied that faith was needed. If a person was one of the elect they wouldn't need faith. I scoffed because I had never heard any Calvinist/Reformed say or believe any such thing. He must have been talking to you.

 

[brightfame52]

They were dead in sin until he made them alive!

okay

verse 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Okay, but it says nothing about being objects of wrath by nature. That would not even make goat sense because the following verse says they were objects of God Love and Mercy. And God in Vs 5 gave them life, so they were always objects of His Love and Mercy

 

[Arial]

Paul never wrote that.

Who did write it then?

 

[brightfame52]

You make light of the work of Christ and make light of sin also.

False , if anyone makes light of Christs work its you, His work put away sin and wrath for the elect, and you deny it, and say sin and wrath isnt put away until they are regenerated and believe.

 

[brightfame52]

Who did write it then?

I dont know where u got that junk from. Paul wrote:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Where do you see the words "under wrath or objects of wrath ? underline them for me in the verse

 

[makesends]

okay

Okay, but it says nothing about being objects of wrath by nature. That would not even make goat sense because the following verse says they were objects of God Love and Mercy. And God in Vs 5 gave them life, so they were always objects of His Love and Mercy

You consider it a mistaken translation, I suppose, to say that they were objects of wrath, (vs children of wrath), but now you are contradicting that to claim the next verse say "they were objects of God love and mercy."

Regardless, the two notions are not mutually exclusive. Being an object of wrath and being regenerated are mutually exclusive, but until one is born again, no, they are not.

 

[brightfame52]

You consider it a mistaken translation, I suppose, to say that they were objects of wrath, (vs children of wrath),

I would say so, sense it contradicts the work of Christ in appeasing Gods wrath for the elect, and what it says in the very next verse 4 which tells us they are objects of mercy and love

 

[brightfame52]

the next verse say "they were objects of God love and mercy."

No it doesn't say that, but it uses the contrastive conjunction BUT to indicate that they were objects of Gods Mercy

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Im sorry if you cant see that

 

[brightfame52]

Regardless, the two notions are not mutually exclusive.

You either a vessel of wrath or a vessel of mercy according to Rom 9:20-23

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 ;Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

 

[Arial]

Okay, but it says nothing about being objects of wrath by nature. That would not even make goat sense because the following verse says they were objects of God Love and Mercy. And God in Vs 5 gave them life, so they were always objects of His Love and Mercy

I copy.pasted the verses, Here it is again. in several translations.

New International Version
All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.
English Standard Version
among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
New King James Version
among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

Berean Standard Bible
All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath.

Do you think that because in verse 5 it says he loved us even when we were dead and and were children of wrath that it then does not say we were by nature children of wrath? You can't subtract whatever you want to from the Bible. I realize you are having a difficult time reconciling that both could be true, but if you would pay attention, the issue is easily resolved, The problem is in the way you are reading it.

People that live as is described in 1-3, which apart from union with Christ is our nature, are under God's wrath, They are children (people) of wrath. Even though that was the case, and even though the believer was in that same boat, the elect were those he chose for mercy (objects) and he loved us even then, so he made us alive in Christ.

 

[Arial]

False , if anyone makes light of Christs work its you, His work put away sin and wrath for the elect, and you deny it, and say sin and wrath isnt put away until they are regenerated and believe.

Instead of distorting a portion of what I said, and then making a false accusation according to the distortion: DEAL WITH WHAT WAS SAID IN ITS FULL CONTEXT!