The Fall, How?

[fastfredy0]

Vincent Cheung?

Really?

Yeah ... you're heard of him?
@CCShorts would be sympathetic to Cheung's viewpoint IMO

 

[Eleanor]

"For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man."

In the image or glory of man?

Made out of the man and reflects his glory.

 

[Eleanor]

It reads Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. Go didn't tempt him. I believe this is fulfilling scripture as Christ being tempted in all ways like we are. And is also a great explanation (illustration) that the devil is God's devil.

Great question brother. But I don't see it as God doing the tempting.

That would be God trying him as he tried the angels, which trial Satan failed, and tried Adam, which he failed.

 

[Eleanor]

I am not sure the text supports your conclusion.
Genesis 3:6 says "she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate."
So he was right there with her during the discussion with the snake. Note that he didn't stop her.

When confronted by God he says:
“The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” Genesis 3:12
If he ate the fruit because he didn't want to be parted from her, he would have said that to God. He didn't.

Why did he eat it in the face of God's command?

 

[Eleanor]

And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. Genesis 1:31.

God called His creation good. Adam and Eve were created in a state of innocence. And if this be the case, why did they sin?

The WCF reads:
God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy council of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass. Chapter 3, section 1.

And we also know God does not tempt anyone with evil, Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. James 1:13.
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5.

Now Adam and Eve had no reason or motive to sin. Meaning they had absolutely no reason to sin. Adam and Eve were declared good, and if that be the case their inclinations were only good, they had no motive whatsoever. If they didn't have a complete desire to obey God and please Him, He wouldn't have called them good.

They simply did not have the means to sin because they didn't have a motive.

Doesn't the text give the motive in Ge 3:6, the tree was desirable for gaining wisdom?

 

[Sereni-tea]

Why did he eat it in the face of God's command?

Because he desired to be the source of wisdom instead of God.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
The so-called fallen nature is believed to be propagated by parents. Oh? Then
whence did Eve obtain it?

She was already alive and fully constructed with material taken from Adam's body
prior to the forbidden fruit incident. Since himself tasted the fruit after his wife was
already in existence; then it was impossible for Adam to pass the fallen nature to
her by means of reproduction.

In the past, I was sure that the chemistry of the forbidden fruit had something to
do with the first couple's altered moral perception; but now I seriously doubt it
because Eve was the first to eat the fruit, and when she did, nothing happened. She
remained just as comfortable in the buff as before. It wasn't till Adam tasted the
fruit that she began to feel exposed; so I'm pretty sure that the underlying cause is
far more serious than the chemistry of that fruit.

FAQ: If Eve's altered moral perception wasn't due to the fruit, nor due to Adam's
body, then what?

REPLY: Mr. Serpent is the logical source, a.k.a. the Devil (Rev 20:2) He has the
power of death (Heb 2:14) and the ability to tamper with the human body and the
human mind in ways not easily detected; e.g. Luke 13:16, Mark 5:1-5, and Eph
2:2.

The Serpent was apparently all set and ready to wield his power the moment that
Adam crossed the line and ate that fruit. It amazes me how quickly it takes effect.
Not long after Adam tasted the fruit, he and his wife both immediately set to work
cobbling together some rudimentary aprons to cover up their pelvic areas.

FAQ: Why wasn't the woman effected by the Serpent's power when she tasted the
forbidden fruit?

REPLY: It was apparently God's decision that if sin and death were to come into the
world, they would come via a lone male's actions just as life and righteousness
would later be offered to the world via a lone male's actions. (Rom 5:12-21)

FAQ: When does the Serpent go to work on people. . . in the womb or out of the
womb?

REPLY: Adam and his wife demonstrate that it can be done on adults, but I'm
guessing that for most of us it's in the womb. (Ps 51:5 & 58:3)

* I really have to hand it to the Serpent; he's very good at shifting blame away
from himself. For quite a few years now it's been traditional to believe parents
propagate the fallen nature; when it's been the Serpent all along. Jesus' statement:
"You are of your father the Devil" wasn't idle slander; rather, it was 100% fact.
(John 8:44)

How he has managed to deceive so many people for so long a time I don't know,
but what's really ironic about it is that there are people behind pulpits, and chairing
whole Sunday school departments, helping him do it as unsuspecting accomplices;
which goes to show that if an idea is repeated often enough, widely enough, and
loud enough by people held in high enough esteem; pretty soon it's accepted by the
masses as fact without thought or question. (the Asch Conformity Phenomenon)

A long habit of not thinking a thing wrong;
Gives it a superficial appearance of being right.
(Thomas Paine)
_

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.

Going on a little tangent here ...

Well then, how about a little traveling music to go along with the ride? What the
hay . . if we're going off-topic, let's do it in style.

Raindrops keep falling on my head
And just like the guy whose feet are too big for his bed
Nothing seems to fit
Those raindrops are falling on my head, they keep falling

So I just did me some talking to the sun
And I said I didn't like the way he got things done
Sleeping on the job
Those raindrops are falling on my head, they keep falling

But there's one thing I know
The blues they send to meet me won't defeat me
It won't be long till happiness steps up to greet me

Raindrops keep falling on my head
But that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turning red
Crying's not for me
'Cause I'm never going to stop the rain by complaining
Because I'm free
Nothing's worrying me

It won't be long till happiness steps up to greet me

Raindrops keep falling on my head
But that doesn't mean my eyes will soon be turning red
Cryin's not for me
'Cause I'm never going to stop the rain by complaining
Because I'm free
Nothing's worrying me
Performed by BJ Thomas for Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid
Music and Lyrics by Hal David and Burt Bacharach
1969
_

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
How's about some comic relief?


Old Dan Tucker was a fine old man
He washed his face in a frying pan
He combed his hair with a wagon wheel
And died of a toothache in his heel

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Here come old flat top
He roller coaster
He got early warning
He got muddy water
He one Mojo filter
He say one and one and one is three
Got to be good looking
'Cause he's so hard to see

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

A spinster lady was asked why she never married. Well; she said: I've got a
hound that lays around the house all day, a stove that smokes, and a bird
that cusses. What do I need a man for?

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Burma Shave
_

 

[Eleanor]

Because he desired to be the source of wisdom instead of God.

Isn't that motive?

 

[Sereni-tea]

Isn't that motive?

Yes. Sorry, I'm not understanding what you are getting at.

 

[Shulammite]

Isn't that motive?

So what's your point? Are you implying God created Adam and Eve evil? If so, just hang up your bible. " who are you but a man to answer back to God?" I mean of course IF that is what you are doing : ) Sometimes hard to tell when not face to face.

I think people can run around chasing their own tails. Taking God at His word works best for me. Since it is His-Story and I am not responsible for my own existence or the universe, I simply go with His explanation and in that humbleness God indulges me with greater deets. All glory to God! If I could cause the sun to rise and set, set the stars on their courses I might think I am somebody to question, alas, not! But that's just me.

 

[Carbon]

So what's your point? Are you implying God created Adam and Eve evil? If so, just hang up your bible. " who are you but a man to answer back to God?" I mean of course IF that is what you are doing : ) Sometimes hard to tell when not face to face.

I think people can run around chasing their own tails. Taking God at His word works best for me. Since it is His-Story and I am not responsible for my own existence or the universe, I simply go with His explanation and in that humbleness God indulges me with greater deets. All glory to God! If I could cause the sun to rise and set, set the stars on their courses I might think I am somebody to question, alas, not! But that's just me.

I can assure you that is not what she is doing.

 

[Shulammite]

Yes. Sorry, I'm not understanding what you are getting at.

Seems the motive of Eve is the only one revealed in the scriptures, Adam's isn't. But since everyone is speculating I think Eve herself was pleasing to Adam and like men do, Adam simply acted because his wife simply influenced him. A woman can be powerful real estate. I don't think Adam really gave it much thought and that was the problem. That would be the problem for many great men moving forward- the wrong influence of the beautiful female persuasion. That type has brought down great kings and their kingdoms.Thank you Mother Mary that you believed what you were told by God and obeyed!

 

[Eleanor]

So what's your point?

Supposedly it is maintained that they had no motive to sin.

Are you implying God created Adam and Eve evil? If so, just hang up your bible. " who are you but a man to answer back to God?" I mean of course IF that is what you are doing : ) Sometimes hard to tell when not face to face.

I think people can run around chasing their own tails. Taking God at His word works best for me. Since it is His-Story and I am not responsible for my own existence or the universe, I simply go with His explanation and in that humbleness God indulges me with greater deets. All glory to God! If I could cause the sun to rise and set, set the stars on their courses I might think I am somebody to question, alas, not! But that's just me.

 

[Shulammite]

I can assure you that is not what she is doing.

Oh ok. Doesn't hurt to ask. We are after all to test all spirits even the one in people. You wouldn't fault me for obeying God's word would you? I thought I was pretty tactful. So nice of you to answer for her though, I gues I asked the wrong spirit. So then, what is she saying since it is not what I asked? Please and thank you .

 

[Eleanor]

Oh ok. Doesn't hurt to ask. We are after all to test all spirits even the one in people. You wouldn't fault me for obeying God's word would you? I thought I was pretty tactful. So nice of you to answer for her though, I gues I asked the wrong spirit. So then, what is she saying since it is not what I asked? Please and thank you .

She is addressing the statement in the OP that they had no motive to sin.

 

[Carbon]

Oh ok. Doesn't hurt to ask. We are after all to test all spirits even the one in people. You wouldn't fault me for obeying God's word would you? I thought I was pretty tactful. So nice of you to answer for her though, I gues I asked the wrong spirit. So then, what is she saying since it is not what I asked? Please and thank you .

Oh, she is also quite capable of answering for herself. Just be patient.

 

[Eleanor]

She is addressing the statement that they had no motive to sin.

Oh, she is also quite capable of answering for herself. Just be patient.

But it does require patience because she is not fast.

 

[Carbon]

But it does require patience because she is not fast.

Fast enough.