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Back to the Garden...or not.

So you did not read the link, are just going tokeep repeating yourself? It would seem to me that if it was possible that I kept talking about imputation and it was pointed out that maybe I did not understand biblical imputation, and therefore everything I was saying about it was wrong, I would check so as not to continue to be embarrassed and present convoluted doctrine. But suit yourself. As I said, I am not going to deal with it anymore.

Yes, I did not read the link. On a forum I like to 'discuss'. If you agree with your link, which you apparently do, then make it your own, and present it as yours. If you don't know whether the link is wrong or right, then I certainly don't want to read it. And I don't want to argue with a link or article.

I am not worried about being embarrassed. Nor am I worried about presenting convoluted 'doctrine'. I would not present something that I thought was wrong. And I am confident in what I present.

And, respectfully, I don't believe that.

Lees
 
Obviously, the effect Jesus sacrifice on the cross was retroactive back to the very beginning. The imputation of righteousness by God to Abraham is the state of Abraham's standing before God. It establishes the after-death position in paradise waiting for the second coming of Christ at which time all of the righteous will be rewarded with life in heaven.
Amen

How could one stand before Almighty God if he would mark even one violation of his living word against Him and expect to receive mercy mixed with grace?

We worship the Spirit of Christ's mercy. (Emanuel) Not the dying flesh of the Son of man, Jesus, Abraham, Rehab. Moses, Deborah, Mary.

Psalm 130:1-8 Out of the depths have I cried unto thee, O Lord., hear my voice: let thine ears be attentive to the voice of my supplications.;If thou, Lord, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? (Abrahm, Moses, Rehab ???? )But there is forgiveness with thee, that thou mayest be feared.;I wait for the Lord, my soul doth wait, and in his word do I hope.My soul waiteth for the Lord more than they that watch for the morning: I say, more than they that watch for the morning.Let Israel hope in the Lord: for with the Lord there is mercy, and with him is plenteous redemption. And he shall redeem Israel from all his iniquities.

Without him we can do nothing, nada, zip that could please him

He alone is our strength and shield. Put in and keep it on as long as one can.
 
Oh! OK!. Tell me where he was wrong and explain to me what imputation is---biblically
Our sins were not imputed to Jesus. And Adam's sin was not, is not, imputed to us. Even worse, he says the imputation of Adam's sin to us makes us guilty and therefore we need to be saved. At the same time he says that the imputation of our sins to Jesus did not make him guilty. It can't be both. He doesn't understand imputation.

And if he doesn't understand imputation, then he doesn't really understand Justification.

It is important to see that justification is thus not a change in our character or in our inner nature; it is a change in our relationship to God and especially to God’s law. The change is objective, not subjective. It solves the problem of guilt, not the problem of corruption. It is also important to see that this change is not a gradual process, but is an immediate and complete change in our status before God. By God’s pronouncement, at a specific, instantaneous moment we are changed from being 0% forgiven to being 100% forgiven before God. The abiding state of justification begins in that instant and continues in its fullness (100%) for as long as we remain in union with Christ. Justification is not just the forgiveness of individual sins, but the forgiveness of the entire person. The following is based upon the work of Jack Cottrell in his book, The Faith Once For All. published by College Press Publishing Company.

We need to ask what the basis for justification is.

Justification is defined as a divine declaration. It means that God as Judge declares us to be righteous with respect to his law. On what basis does God make this declaration? Because God himself is righteous, he cannot say or do anything that violates his own holy nature or that ignores the requirements of his holy law. Thus if God justifies us or declares us righteous, there must be a basis or rationale for that declaration. What is it?

One possible basis for justification would be the individual’s own personal righteousness, his own works or accomplishments. This would be the case if the person were completely righteous with respect to the law’s commandments, i.e., if he were 100% innocent. In this case the Judge would be required to say, “No penalty for you,” since the person is literally not guilty of any sin and does not deserve any punishment. Such would be a true justification by works. This possibility will never become a reality, though, since all have sinned and no one is 100% innocent (Rom 3:20,23).

There is another possible way for a person to be justified (declared righteous) by his own personal righteousness. This would happen if one did indeed break the law but then he, himself, actually took the full punishment for doing so. In this case the person would be righteous with respect to the law’s penalty rather than its commands. Once the penalty was paid, the Judge could declare, “No further penalty for you.” This happens on a human level when a criminal serves his full sentence, thus “paying his debt to society,” and is released from prison. The reason this will never happen in the divine Judge’s courtroom, though, is that the penalty for sins is eternal suffering in hell. Because the penalty is eternal, condemned sinners will never reach the point when they have completely satisfied the law’s penal requirement. They will forever be paying their debt of punishment.

Thus because of the fact of universal sinfulness, and because of the nature of the punishment deserved by sin, no one will ever be justified on the basis of any type of human righteousness. What is the alternative?

The only alternative, and the only true basis for justifying sinners, is God’s own righteousness imputed or credited to the sinner’s account. If we attempt to stand before God on the judgment day dressed only in our own righteousness—a “filthy garment” (Isa 64:6)—we will be condemned, not justified. That is why God offers to clothe us with “a robe of righteousness” that he himself has prepared (Isa 61:10). This leads Paul to say that on that day he wants to “be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith” (Phil 3:9). The gospel is the power of God for salvation because “in it the righteousness of God is revealed,” to take the place of our own futile human righteousness (Rom 1:16-17). Anyone who rejects God’s righteousness and seeks to establish his own righteousness as a basis for acceptance by God is doomed to be rejected (Rom 10:3).

The righteousness of God that serves as the basis for justification is not the divine attribute of righteousness or justice as such, especially if this is understood as God’s own perfect moral character and his perfect legal justice that requires sin to be punished. The righteousness of God that justifies is rather a gift given to sinners, like a robe woven by God then offered to and accepted by the sinner, who wears it as if it were his own (Isa 61:10). It is a righteousness that is outside of God and “comes from God” (Phil 3:9) and is applied to us. When God sees this righteousness in our possession, he declares, “No penalty for you!”

Specifically, this righteousness of God is the righteousness of God the Son in the person of Jesus Christ. In fact the main purpose of the incarnation was to establish a divine righteousness that could be used as the basis for justifying sinners. An image frequently used to represent this transfer of righteousness is imputation, which is based on the Greek verb logizomai. When used in the context of justification, this word derives its meaning from the way it was used by Greeks in the field of business or commerce. It was a technical term that described the procedure of entering a credit or a debit to someone’s account. It is properly translated “to credit, to set down to one’s account, to impute, to reckon, to count as, to regard as.” An illustration of the concept is Paul’s exhortation to Philemon (v. 18, NKJV) regarding any debt owed to him by his runaway slave Onesimus: “Put that on my account.” This concept explains what was happening on the cross; and it explains what is happening in justification, when Christ’s righteousness is imputed or credited to us.

Exactly what is the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to our account? We will remember that strictly speaking righteousness means “conformity to a norm.” Where salvation from sin is concerned, the relevant norm is the law of God, and justification can happen only when the requirements of the law have been satisfied as mandated by God’s own holy nature. This is what Jesus came to accomplish. In essence the righteousness of God and the basis for our justification is the fact that Jesus satisfied the requirements of the law in our place, and in justification his satisfaction of these requirements is imputed to our account.

Most Protestants are in agreement up to this point, but here a serious error is usually made. It is often assumed that the righteousness of Christ that is imputed to us includes his active righteousness, i.e., his satisfaction of or obedience to the commandments of the law. With Christ’s perfect obedience put down on our account, God can look at us and declare us “not guilty,” thus treating us just as if we had never sinned. But this is not correct. Christ did indeed obey the law perfectly, but he did so because as a human being this was his own personal responsibility and duty. It was necessary for his own sake; it was what he ought to have done, even apart from his saving purposes. Thus in terms of his active righteousness, even the sinless Christ is an “unprofitable servant” (Luke 17:10, KJV). He has no extra merits left over, so to speak, to share with anyone else. (This does not mean, of course, that his perfect obedience is irrelevant to our salvation. His perfect life was a prerequisite for his perfect sacrifice. Without the former, he could not have been the latter.)

What, then, is imputed to our account as the basis for our justification? Not Christ’s active righteousness—his doing, but his passive righteousness—his dying. Jesus not only satisfied the commandments of the law; he also satisfied the law’s requirements for penalty. He took its punishment in our place through his substitutionary and propitiatory death on the cross. This is the “one act of righteousness” that constitutes the righteousness of God: “Even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men” (Rom 5:18). Thus the righteousness of God revealed in the gospel and imputed to our account is Christ’s satisfaction, on our behalf, of the law’s requirement for penalty. In essence the righteousness of God is the blood of Christ.

This is why to be justified (declared righteous) does not mean to be treated just as if I’d never sinned, but just as if I’d already paid the penalty of eternal hell. As sinners justified by the blood of Christ we do not have to worry about hell because (as far as God is concerned) we have already been there, have paid our eternal debt, and have been released (Rom 8:1).

That is the basis for God's justification. It remains to establish the means for God's justification. That is, whom God justifies.
 
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Our sins were not imputed to Jesus. And Adam's sin was not, is not, imputed to us. Even worse, he says the imputation of Adam's sin to us makes us guilty and therefore we need to be saved.
That is not showing where that author is wrong. It only shows that you disagree with him so say he is wrong. The Bible clearly shows (even states directly by definition of biblical imputation) that Adam's sin is imputed to all his progeny. That is the reason every last one of us actually sins. I would give the scriptures but that has already been done. You still continue in the same vein as you do above. "I don't agree, so that is not what is being said." Even though Christianity from the beginning disagrees with your interpretation of those scriptures.
At the same time he says that the imputation of our sins to Jesus did not make him guilty. It can't be both. He doesn't understand imputation.
It can be both and it is both. Jesus was never in Adam. He bore on his body the penalty for our sins, not his own. At the same time he freed the believer from the imputation (change in nature of humanity)of being a sinner by virtue of being in Adam. Taking the penalty for our sins did not make him a sinner. And that is all I am going to say about it, as there is no need to start the same conversation all over again.
And if he doesn't understand imputation, then he doesn't really understand Justification.
At which point you change the conversation from imputation to justification, and I am not going to indulge you. And you need to put in quotes or bold or italics, what is the work of another person, so theirs and yours can be distinguished. I know you can no longer edit the post. If you tell me where the quote begins and ends, I will do it for you.
 
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Our sins were not imputed to Jesus. And Adam's sin was not, is not, imputed to us. Even worse, he says the imputation of Adam's sin to us makes us guilty and therefore we need to be saved. At the same time he says that the imputation of our sins to Jesus did not make him guilty. It can't be both. He doesn't understand imputation.
Yes not Adam's sin rather than the sting of death letter of the law "death". Thou shall not or you are dead never to rise to new spirit life .

Every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour. Dying mankind cannot die to save another The Son of man Jesus demonstrated the eternal work of the powerful Father
 
If God did not impute the sin of Adam to the human race, and if God did not impute the sin of the human race to Christ, and if God did not impute the righteousness of God to the believers, then who is the lucky one individual who Christ died for?

Christ was One Man. He will only die 'once'. A One Man Substitute for some lucky one man. What are the odds it is you or I?

Lees
 
If God did not impute the sin of Adam to the human race, and if God did not impute the sin of the human race to Christ, and if God did not impute the righteousness of God to the believers, then who is the lucky one individual who Christ died for?

Christ was One Man. He will only die 'once'. A One Man Substitute for some lucky one man. What are the odds it is you or I?

Lees
Christ is the Holy Spirit that dwells in men like the Son of man, Jesus.


Christ as the eternal father cannot die .
 
A perfect environment. A sinless pair of human beings in fellowship with God and given responsibilities from God to care for the Garden (Gen. 2:15). Perfect bliss between God and man.

Enter the serpent. Why did God let/put the serpent into the garden? Some may say [that it was] in order for man to exercise his will.

I will answer your question with one of my own:
  • What if God let the serpent in the garden in order for man to exercise his dominion in obedience to God?
As you said, Adam was commanded to care for and maintain it. Bible scholars inform us that the word translated as "maintain" (שָׁמַר, shamar) means something like guard, protect, watch over, hedge about, preserve, and so forth, which is reflected in the responsibilities of priests in the tabernacle and temple later (cf. Num 3:7-8). This was about maintaining the sanctity of the garden as sacred space, which involves expelling that which defiles—such as the deceiving serpent. In the end, God had to step in and do what Adam failed to do, expelling not only the serpent but now also Adam and Eve.

Again, perhaps God let the serpent in the garden because he had placed his image-bearer there with a command to exercise his dominion mandate in obedience to God. In other words, because Adam was God's image-bearer, the question is not why God let the serpent in but rather why Adam let the serpent in.


Without the serpent, their will would have never come into conflict with God's will. And when we get to heaven, our wills will never come into conflict with God's will.

I have a problem with this view, insofar as it regards the final consummation of all things as sort of a return to the garden in Eden. It suggests that our eternal state in glory will be the same as Adam's original state in the garden. There are a number of problems with this, two of which are as follows:

(1) Adam's original state in the garden was posse non peccare et posse peccare, that last bit meaning "able to sin." That will not be our eternal state in glory, which will be non posse peccare (unable to sin).

(2) Our eternal state in glory will be the same as Christ, not Adam (e.g., Rom 8:29; 2 Cor 3:18; 1 John 3:2; Eph 4:10; 4:22-24; Col 3:10).

Thus, the fall of man was part of God's plan for what he wanted man to be.

I agree, which was to be made in the image of his Son, who is the image of God.


But so impossible is it to make man as righteous as God [that he] makes it that man is as righteous as he "by declaration" only (Php 3:9), as understood in the doctrine of imputation.

I don't know about "only." It is true that our righteousness is "the righteousness that comes by way of Christ's faithfulness—a righteousness from God that is in fact based on Christ's faithfulness." However, it is also true that "he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ" (Php 1:6; Heb 12:23), when at last we "become the righteousness of God" (2 Cor 5:21; Rom 5:19). That is no mere declaration. In our eternal state we will have neither a sinful nature (e.g., evil desires) nor enticements to sin (e.g., devil’s schemes). We are raised incorruptible.


It is ours by declaration only, not ours in and of ourselves.

Nothing is ever in and of ourselves. "What do you have that you did not receive? And if you received it, why do you boast as though you did not?" (1 Cor 4:7). We will be perfectly righteous in our eternal state, but by virtue of our immediate and pure communion with God—not in and of ourselves.


There is nothing in Genesis 1:28 to indicate Adam's first sin was failure to rule over the serpent.

No, that indication was in Genesis 3:1-5, read in the light of Genesis 2:15. Adam disobeyed God when he failed to expel the deceiving serpent from the garden.


[I think the reason God let the serpent in the garden was] to tempt Adam and Eve, resulting in the fall. You disagree, so tell and show me why.

Okay: "Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted by God,’ for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one" (Jas 1:13).
 
I will answer your question with one of my own:
  • What if God let the serpent in the garden in order for man to exercise his dominion in obedience to God?
As you said, Adam was commanded to care for and maintain it. Bible scholars inform us that the word translated as "maintain" (שָׁמַר, shamar) means something like guard, protect, watch over, hedge about, preserve, and so forth, which is reflected in the responsibilities of priests in the tabernacle and temple later (cf. Num 3:7-8). This was about maintaining the sanctity of the garden as sacred space, which involves expelling that which defiles—such as the deceiving serpent. In the end, God had to step in and do what Adam failed to do, expelling not only the serpent but now also Adam and Eve.

Again, perhaps God let the serpent in the garden because he had placed his image-bearer there with a command to exercise his dominion mandate in obedience to God. In other words, because Adam was God's image-bearer, the question is not why God let the serpent in but rather why Adam let the serpent in.

Did I say 'maintain'?

Lees
 
Thanks.

No, I believe God made exactly what He wanted. It's just that that is the beginning of His work. Not the end. After the fall, God did not expect any to be innocent and sinless. Instead the Law was given to find man guilty. (Rom. 3:19-20) God expected man to come to Him by the way He describes.

I believe I explained what God wanted. I believe I have explained why the fall was necessary.

As to, if Adam and Eve would ever sin without the serpent tempting, I said, that remains a question. And how could we know? Well...yes, if the serpent were not in the garden as the tempter, and Adam and Eve were sinless, then their will would never come into conflict with God's will. When the believer gets to Heaven, does he have a will? Can he will to rebel against God?

So, why did God put/let the serpent in the Garden?

I believe the creation was good as God says.

Why are you interested in 'outside sources'? I haven't seen you produce any. Why are you interested in how I got there? Have you declared how you got there? We have the Scripture. Let that prove what we say.

Lees

Yes, was good.

The glory of Christ.

God is Light as well as being able to create it temporal dying (Sun moon),

Seeing false pride in the heart of lucifer. Christ departed day three. Day 4 flipped the corruption timekeeper winding down to the last day under the Sun

The serpent the most beautiful creation in the garden was used as a false apostle sent with false prophecy adding to true prophecy "thou shall not eat." . . . . . . . "Neither shall ye touch it",

The lust of the flesh drawing them to the hidden tree upon seeing it the lust of the eyes false pride took over.

Christ in order to show he is not served by hands as a will of dying mankind used an Ass to represent the unredeemed world used as if a true apostle sent with prophecy. It powerfully worked in the false prophet, false apostles. . Balaam .

Numbers 22:28 And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

He is still in the business of opening mouths and closings of others .
 
Lees said:
[I think the reason God let the serpent in the garden was] to tempt Adam and Eve, resulting in the fall. You disagree, so tell and show me why.
Okay: "Let no one say when he is tempted, ‘I am tempted by God,’ for God cannot be tempted by evil, and he himself tempts no one" (Jas 1:13).
I take it further than @Lees seems to here. I don't think that God merely "let" the serpent into the garden, but that he "PUT" it there. I think every single tiniest thing / event is entirely by God's predetermination, to include every last sin and temptation. To me, that does not mean that he personally is tempting anyone, but that he intended for it to happen from the beginning.

God's sovereignty is not just a distance from and ability to overcome 'unfortunate' or evil or hard things --rather, his sovereignty is causal.

To me, to deny this is to deny his omnipotence. There is no fact that is self-existent, nor came into existence, outside of God's causation, and to which he must accommodate himself or to which he must adapt his plans. This is to the essence of Aseity and Impassibility.
 
I don't think that God merely "let" the serpent into the garden, but rather he "PUT" it there. I think every single tiniest thing or event is entirely by God's predetermination, to include every last sin and temptation. To me, that does not mean that he personally is tempting anyone, but that he intended for it to happen from the beginning.

It sounds like you're suggesting Lees intended to say, "I think the reason God let the serpent in the garden was for the serpent to tempt Adam and Eve, resulting in the fall." If so, and if that's what he meant, then likewise I have no disagreement. I believe the same thing. And God knew that Adam would fall and humanity would have to be redeemed. This was not Plan B, but the original and eternal purpose.

To adapt something Joseph said, "As for the serpent, he meant to harm us, but God intended it for a good purpose, so he could redeem the lives of many people, as you can see this day."
 
It sounds like you're suggesting Lees intended to say, "I think the reason God let the serpent in the garden was for the serpent to tempt Adam and Eve, resulting in the fall." If so, and if that's what he meant, then likewise I have no disagreement. I believe the same thing. And God knew that Adam would fall and humanity would have to be redeemed. This was not Plan B, but the original and eternal purpose.

To adapt something Joseph said, "As for the serpent, he meant to harm us, but God intended it for a good purpose, so he could redeem the lives of many people, as you can see this day.
Oh. I see what you're getting at now --that it sounded like @Lees was saying that God let the serpent in, for God to tempt them.
 
No, the Bible did. Sorry, I thought the argument turned on what the Bible says.

It does. And the word 'maintain' was not used by me or the Bible. The word 'keep' is what you're referring to.

You say it involves 'expelling that which defiles'. As though there is something in the Garden which defiles. You're assuming that prior to Satan's use of the serpent, that the serpent was in and of itself evil. We are told that it was more 'subtil' than any other beast God made, but not evil. (Gen. 3:1)

In other words, Adam had no reason to expel the serpent from the Garden. And he wasn't under any command from God to watch out for the serpent and to expel him from the Garden. You suggest God expelled the serpent from the Garden doing what Adam should have done. Where does it say that? Adam and Eve were expelled but I don't see where the serpent was. (Gen. 3:24)

Therefore to your question, 'why did Adam let the serpent in', post #(108), the serpent was just another beast in the field till Satan used it. There was no reason for Adam to expel it. And God never reprimanded Adam for it. So I disagree that Adam failed in that regard.

As to your question in post #(108), "What if God let the serpent in the garden in order for man to exercise his dominion in obedience to God?", God did let the serpent in knowing Satan would use it to tempt man to eat of the forbidden fruit, knowing man would fall.

Which is my point. The Fall of Man in the Garden was just the beginning of God's plan for man, which plan will place man in a much higher place then innocence in the Garden ever would.

Lees
 
Oh! OK!. Tell me where he was wrong and explain to me what imputation is---biblically
Only one example. The author said:
"In order to emphasize the relevance to his readers of this teaching about the gracious imputation of righteousness to Abraham, the apostle included all those of later generations who come to God as Abraham came and have faith reckoned to them. “The words, ‘it was reckoned to him,’ were written not for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be reckoned to us who believe...” (Rom 4:23f.; cf. v. 11b)."

The Bible never speaks of faith being reckoned, i.e, imputed. That concept is completely false. It is righteousness that is reckoned, i.e, inputed, to those who have faith. The imputation of righteousness is to be declared righteous. To be Justified is to be declared righteous, to be counted as righteous, to have righteousness accredited, to have righteousness imputed.

Rom 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Rom 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 5:2 Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Gal 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

Gal 3:24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith.

In being declared righteous, God is not treating us as not guilty; rather, He is treating us as is we have already paid the penalty of our sins. He has reckoned our debt of eternal condemnation for our sins has already having been paid. That is the imputation of righteousness. He is not making us righteous; He is only declaring us so. He isn't imparting righteousness; He is imputing righteousness.
 
It sounds like you're suggesting Lees intended to say, "I think the reason God let the serpent in the garden was for the serpent to tempt Adam and Eve, resulting in the fall." If so, and if that's what he meant, then likewise I have no disagreement. I believe the same thing. And God knew that Adam would fall and humanity would have to be redeemed. This was not Plan B, but the original and eternal purpose.

To adapt something Joseph said, "As for the serpent, he meant to harm us, but God intended it for a good purpose, so he could redeem the lives of many people, as you can see this day."
Thanks. .

The serpent was created in the garden. The most beautiful creation (lust of eye) an innumerable number of legs needed to walk by faith (as it is written) cut off. . . in the garden

Adding to sola scriptura "neither shall you touch" as false prophecy mankind fell. Satan slithered
 
It does. And the word "maintain" was not used by me or the Bible. The word 'keep' is what you're referring to.

In fact, neither word was used by the Bible, since Genesis 2:15 was not written in English.

Whether someone's Bible translated it as "keep" or "maintain" or something else, in any case we are referring to exactly the same word, שָׁמַר (shamar), and my argument stands.


You say it involves "expelling that which defiles," as though there is something in the garden which defiles. You're assuming that prior to Satan's use of the serpent [it] was, in and of itself, evil.

No, my argument neither makes nor requires that assumption.


In other words, Adam had no reason to expel the serpent from the Garden.

Did he have a reason at any point? (Yes.)


And he wasn't under any command from God to watch out for the serpent and to expel him from the garden.

My argument showed otherwise, referencing Genesis 2:15 with an exegetical analysis that you neither conceded nor rejected.


You suggest [that] God expelled the serpent from the garden, doing what Adam should have done. Where does it say that? Adam and Eve were expelled but I don't see where the serpent was (Gen. 3:24).

That suggestion arises from a broader exegetical argument about the first three chapters of Genesis provided by evangelical scholars like Kline, Walton, Beale, Middleton, Moritz, etc. Among other things posited, the garden of Eden is understood to be a kind of Holy of Holies in a cosmic temple motif found throughout scripture, revealing the eschatological purpose of God's tabernacling presence which Christ will fully achieve. There is a wealth of evidence from which these arguments are drawn, including such interesting facts as the cherubim-adorned veil in the tabernacle that segregated the Most Holy Place from the Holy Place, just as the cherubim guarded the entrance to the garden with flaming swords. The garden was sacred space and to be kept undefiled (as Leviticus clearly illustrates).


Therefore, to your question—"Why did Adam let the serpent in?"—the serpent was just another beast in the field until Satan used it. There was no reason for Adam to expel it. And God never reprimanded Adam for it.

Or there was a reason, and my argument pointed to it. If you're aware of the question-begging fallacy, I hope you would avoid it.


So, I disagree that Adam failed in that regard.

That does nothing to my argument itself, but okay.


As to your question in post #108—"What if God let the serpent in the garden in order for man to exercise his dominion in obedience to God?"—God did let the serpent in, knowing Satan would use it to tempt man to eat of the forbidden fruit, knowing man would fall.

And on this point we agree.


Which is my point. The Fall of Man in the Garden was just the beginning of God's plan for man, [a plan that] will place man in a much higher place than innocence in the garden ever would.

Again, we agree.
 
In fact, neither word was used by the Bible, since Genesis 2:15 was not written in English.

Whether someone's Bible translated it as "keep" or "maintain" or something else, in any case we are referring to exactly the same word, שָׁמַר (shamar), and my argument stands.




No, my argument neither makes nor requires that assumption.




Did he have a reason at any point? (Yes.)




My argument showed otherwise, referencing Genesis 2:15 with an exegetical analysis that you neither conceded nor rejected.




That suggestion arises from a broader exegetical argument about the first three chapters of Genesis provided by evangelical scholars like Kline, Walton, Beale, Middleton, Moritz, etc. Among other things posited, the garden of Eden is understood to be a kind of Holy of Holies in a cosmic temple motif found throughout scripture, revealing the eschatological purpose of God's tabernacling presence which Christ will fully achieve. There is a wealth of evidence from which these arguments are drawn, including such interesting facts as the cherubim-adorned veil in the tabernacle that segregated the Most Holy Place from the Holy Place, just as the cherubim guarded the entrance to the garden with flaming swords. The garden was sacred space and to be kept undefiled (as Leviticus clearly illustrates).




Or there was a reason, and my argument pointed to it. If you're aware of the question-begging fallacy, I hope you would avoid it.




That does nothing to my argument itself, but okay.




And on this point we agree.




Again, we agree.

Except the word 'maintain' is used in the Bible. And it was not chosen for (Gen. 2:15).

Yes it does. You assume Adam should have expelled 'that which defiles' from the Garden. You assume the serpent was evil prior to being used of Satan. If you don't assume that, then your argument is empty. For Adam had no reason to expel the serpent.

Now you say 'at any point'. Well, name the 'point'. Which you didn't do before either. All you did before was bring accuasation against Adam based upon an assumption.

Your exegetical analysis is based on assumption. Did God command Adam to not eat of the Tree? Yes. Did God command Adam to expel the serpent from the Garden? No. So I do reject your exegetical analysis.

More assumption on your part. We are never told God expelled the serpent from the Garden as you claim He did. You said God did what Adam should have done.

No there was no reason for Adam to expel the serpent from the Garden. Your argument is based on assumption. You're attributing wrong to Adam that God never did. And you then say God expelled the serpent from the Garden, which is never told us. Your argument that God must have expelled the serpent because the Garden was a 'Holy Place' is empty also. Heaven is a Holy Place where God resides. And the first sin was in Heaven. Yet Satan still has access to Heaven. (Job. 1:6) (Job 2:1) (Rev. 12:10)

I have showed why I disagree with your accusation against Adam, which proves the emptiness of your argument.

Perhaps.

Perhaps.

Lees
 
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It does. And the word 'maintain' was not used by me or the Bible. The word 'keep' is what you're referring to.

You say it involves 'expelling that which defiles'. As though there is something in the Garden which defiles. You're assuming that prior to Satan's use of the serpent, that the serpent was in and of itself evil. We are told that it was more 'subtil' than any other beast God made, but not evil. (Gen. 3:1)

I would offer

Living Words that Christ put on the tongue of his creatures (apostles) does not make the speaker a righteous Ass. The power of the living word the effect or power does. It can restrain the false prophecy as oral traditions of dying mankind (Balaam)

God uses an Ass a unclean to represent the non-redeemed that must be redeemed with a lamb (clean animal) to show us he can use a faithless unbeliever to preach the gospel as easily as one that has been born again

Not served by the dying hands as a will of dying mankind. He alone has the power to raise the dying to new spirit life

. Just as words put on the mouth of the serpent does make it evil. Nothing is evil in itself other than the evil one

Exodus 13:13 And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.
 
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