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The Fall, How?

Carbon

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And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. Genesis 1:31.

God called His creation good. Adam and Eve were created in a state of innocence. And if this be the case, why did they sin?

The WCF reads:
God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy council of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass. Chapter 3, section 1.

And we also know God does not tempt anyone with evil, Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. James 1:13.
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5.

Now Adam and Eve had no reason or motive to sin. Meaning they had absolutely no reason to sin. Adam and Eve were declared good, and if that be the case their inclinations were only good, they had no motive whatsoever. If they didn't have a complete desire to obey God and please Him, He wouldn't have called them good.

They simply did not have the means to sin because they didn't have a motive.

This is a serious problem that many theologians have (are dealing with) dealt with. Which is the problem of evil.


Thoughts?
`
 
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. Genesis 1:31.

God called His creation good. Adam and Eve were created in a state of innocence. And if this be the case, why did they sin?

The WCF reads:
God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy council of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass. Chapter 3, section 1.

And we also know God does not tempt anyone with evil, Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. James 1:13.
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5.

Now Adam and Eve had no reason or motive to sin. Meaning they had absolutely no reason to sin. Adam and Eve were declared good, and if that be the case their inclinations were only good, they had no motive whatsoever. If they didn't have a complete desire to obey God and please Him, He wouldn't have called them good.

They simply did not have the means to sin because they didn't have a motive.

This is a serious problem that many theologians have (are dealing with) dealt with. Which is the problem of evil.


Thoughts?
`
This is a very difficult topic and I think we have to tread carefully.
As you said above, God is not the author of sin, nor can he tempt anyone to sin.
Again, as you have said, on the sixth day, God said His creation was very good.

Now my question to you is what does this word 'good' refer to? Is it saying they were morally good, or perhaps that everything conformed to His purposes, or perhaps something else?
My understanding is that everything conformed to His purposes. God was in relationship with Adam and Eve in the sacred space of the Garden. This to my mind doesn't negate them being morally neutral - with the ability to obey or disobey God.
Adam and Eve were tempted, they gave in to temptation and they disobeyed God's command.
 
This is a very difficult topic and I think we have to tread carefully.
Indeed
As you said above, God is not the author of sin, nor can he tempt anyone to sin.
Again, as you have said, on the sixth day, God said His creation was very good.
Yes.
Now my question to you is what does this word 'good' refer to? Is it saying they were morally good, or perhaps that everything conformed to His purposes, or perhaps something else?
I think God declaring them good is meaning they were created in a state of complete innocence. They were inclined towards good and pleasing God. They had absolutely no reason to do anything but good.
My understanding is that everything conformed to His purposes. God was in relationship with Adam and Eve in the sacred space of the Garden. This to my mind doesn't negate them being morally neutral - with the ability to obey or disobey God.
Adam and Eve were tempted, they gave in to temptation and they disobeyed God's command.
Yes, they were created good and desired to do only good. But had the possibility to sin, or they wouldn't have. How do you think Romans 9 fits in?

22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Romans 9.
 
I think God declaring them good is meaning they were created in a state of complete innocence. They were inclined towards good and pleasing God. They had absolutely no reason to do anything but good.
You could be right, but I'm not convinced that this is the correct language to use. They obviously had the capacity for disobeedience otherwise they wouldn't have disobeyed when tempted.

Yes, they were created good and desired to do only good. But had the possibility to sin, or they wouldn't have. How do you think Romans 9 fits in?

22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Romans 9.
We know that the cross was God's plan from the beginning. It wasn't just something He came up with after Adam and Eve sinned. That is why I prefer to use the language that they conformed to His purposes. The Fall was part of His plan, just as the history of Israel was part of His plan. Nothing happens outside of His purposes. But still God is not the author of sin.
 
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. Genesis 1:31.
God called His creation good. Adam and Eve were created in a state of innocence. And if this be the case, why did they sin?
The WCF reads:
God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy council of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass. Chapter 3, section 1.
And we also know God does not tempt anyone with evil, Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. James 1:13.
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5.
Now Adam and Eve had no reason or motive to sin. Meaning they had absolutely no reason to sin. Adam and Eve were declared good, and if that be the case their inclinations were only good, they had no motive whatsoever. If they didn't have a complete desire to obey God and please Him, He wouldn't have called them good.
They simply did not have the means to sin because they didn't have a motive.
Adam's desire for Eve, not to part with her, was the motive.

Adam had a choice to make between two goods in opposition to one another, Eve and God.
He loved the creature more than the Creator.
Wrong choice.
 
Adam's desire for Eve, not to part with her, was the motive.

Adam had a choice to make between two goods in opposition to one another, Eve and God.
He loved the creature more than the Creator.
Wrong choice.
Thanks for your opinion. Interesting.
 
Adam's desire for Eve, not to part with her, was the motive.

Adam had a choice to make between two goods in opposition to one another, Eve and God.
He loved the creature more than the Creator.
Wrong choice.
I have heard something similar. Perhaps the same thing. The bible says Eve was deceived, not Adam.

2 Cor 11:3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
1 Tim 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

So the question is....Gen 3:6 She also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate it.....Why did Adam eat the fruit?
Did Adam not want to be eternally separated from Eve? The problem is, at this point of the conversation we have to move into the realm of speculation.
 
I have heard something similar. Perhaps the same thing. The bible says Eve was deceived, not Adam.

2 Cor 11:3 But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.
1 Tim 2:14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.

So the question is....Gen 3:6 She also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate it.....Why did Adam eat the fruit?
Did Adam not want to be eternally separated from Eve?
We fail to understand the nature of pure Adam's delight in Eve, they were one flesh (Ge 2:23-24), she being made in Adam's image (1 Co 11:7).
 
.
Eve was first to taste the forbidden fruit; and when she did, nothing
happened. She went right on the buff same as before and it wasn't till Adam
tasted the fruit that her perception of decency was altered and she covered
her pelvic area with an apron.

But I think Adam was at least cautious at first, and kept a wary eye on his
wife for some time waiting to see if she would get sick; and when she didn't,
he surely had to wonder if maybe he misunderstood God.

I think most husbands would sympathize with Adam. I mean: he was told by
a supposedly competent source that the forbidden tree was unfit for human
consumption. But here's your wife sitting right beside you happily munching
away and she's still healthy, lucid, and exhibiting no ill side effects. How is a
reasonable man supposed to argue with empirical evidence as good as that?
_
 
.
1Tim 2:14 is oftentimes used to allege that Adam wasn't tricked into eating
the fruit. But the trickery in that particular passage is relative to the
Serpent. In other words: Adam wasn't fooled by the Devil, instead, he was
made a fool by his wife.
_
 
.
1Tim 2:14 is oftentimes used to allege that Adam wasn't tricked into eating
the fruit. But the trickery in that particular passage is relative to the
Serpent. In other words: Adam wasn't fooled by the Devil, instead, he was
made a fool by his wife.
_
But Adam was not deceived. He knew what he was doing, right?
 
But Adam was not deceived. He knew what he was doing, right?
Where does the deception end? After Eve ate, or After Adam ate?
 
.
Gen 3:6e . . She also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he
ate it.

The phrase "who was with her" has led some folks to suggest that Adam was
standing right there the whole time observing the entire incident; not saying
a word when he should've stepped in to prevent his wife's mistake.

But the phrase could simply mean they were a cohabiting couple at the time,
viz: weren't split up living apart. For example: I've been with my wife 43
years without interruption though we often go our separate ways on errands
and appointments: vacations too. My wife likes to rendezvous with her sister
in the community of Santa Barbara California once a year for a week, viz:
she's been with me all this time, though not always at my side.
_
 
No, it was a willful choice to disobey God, for something his human nature preferred more and did not want to live without.
That would give him a motive perhaps, but there was no deception to that motive?
 
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