• **Notifications**: Notifications can be dismissed by clicking on the "x" on the righthand side of the notice.
  • **New Style**: You can now change style options. Click on the paintbrush at the bottom of this page.
  • **Donations**: If the Lord leads you please consider helping with monthly costs and up keep on our Forum. Click on the Donate link In the top menu bar. Thanks
  • **New Blog section**: There is now a blog section. Check it out near the Private Debates forum or click on the Blog link in the top menu bar.
  • Welcome Visitors! Join us and be blessed while fellowshipping and celebrating our Glorious Salvation In Christ Jesus.

The Fall, How?

.
He knew what he was doing, right?

I think Adam kind of had his doubts about the forbidden fruit's toxicity, but
regardless; Adam's superior instructed him not to eat it and went ahead and ate it
anyway. So we cannot allow him an excuse in that direction.
_
 
That would give him a motive perhaps, but there was no deception to that motive?
Well, the Reformers think he was deceived by Eve, and that works for me,
because the issue is, in light of her deception by Satan, woman is not to be intrusted with the teaching function of an overseer.
 
Last edited:
Touch and taste ~ by ReverendRV * November 22

Genesis 3:3 KJV
; But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

Did God really say that if Eve would touch that fruit, she would die? We read earlier in Genesis that God told Adam that if he ate of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil he would die; Eve added the part about the touch. Oh how the Serpent jumped on this mistake; he told her she surely would not die. Imagine her delight upon finding out that when she touched the fruit she didn’t die! The Serpent went on to tell her God knows when she eats the fruit she will be like God. No wonder she and Adam would eat the fruit after she didn’t die from the touch. But when they took a bite, their eyes were instantly opened and they saw their Nakedness; which was symbolic of their Spiritual death. ~ Sometimes we make it too easy for the Devil, don’t we? Not understanding the Truth well enough can be like not understanding it at all. But what if Eve understood the Truth better than we thought she did? Maybe she was a better helpmate to Adam than we think she was…

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and the Tree of Life are symbolic of God’s Covenant of Works and his Covenant of Grace. Elsewhere in the Bible we find another analogy picturing two other women; Hagar and Sarah. Hagar symbolized Mount Sanai and Sarah symbolized spiritual Jerusalem. Mount Sanai represents the Covenant of Works, just like the Tree of Knowledge also represents it. The Ten Commandments epitomize the Covenant of Works; the Bible also calls them ‘killing letters’. ~ In the book of Exodus we are told that Mount Sanai was burning and quaking! God said that if the people approached the mountain to touch it, they would die. Have you approached this fierce mountain? Stones with writing on them have been cast to the ground; one says thou shalt not take the LORD’s name in vain. Have you ever used God’s name as a cuss word? Yes? You have touched the mountain! Your eyes are opened and you are naked before God! You look back at that cruel rock and see more writing; it says thou shalt not Murder. The Bible says that even if we break just one Commandment, we are guilty of breaking them all. That boulder is covered with the Ten Commandments of God. You have spiritually died and will go to Hell as eternal punishment. Does this bother you even a little?

But there is a Tree of Life and there is a Spiritual Jerusalem; Mount Calvary. The second woman Sarah had a husband named Abraham. He obeyed the word of God and took his Promised son to Mount Calvary to be a burnt offering. God stopped Abraham from slaying his son that day and provided a substitute for the offering. Around 2000 years after this, Jesus Christ died on a Cross as a bloody sacrifice for Sin. Since he led a faultless Life, only Jesus was qualified to purge Sin from out of existence. He died and was buried three days but arose to life again; walking among witnesses for fifty days. We’re Saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus, apart from Meritorious Works which we might be tempted to touch and taste. Repent of your Sins, find a Bible believing Church that will help you understand Truth better. ~ Was Eve the first Prophet of God? Did Eve really get the word of God right when she said that touching the Law would lead to certain death? She was wrong about her touching it because she was a pure Being, but she was right about our touching it as Fallen creatures…

Psalm 34:9 NIV; Taste and see that the LORD is good; blessed is the one who takes refuge in him.
 
That would give him a motive perhaps, but there was no deception to that motive?
"If" we can say The Fall is Typology, Adam wasn't deceived any more than the Second Adam was deceived...

Perhaps Adam knowingly died for Eve, as Jesus knowingly died for the Church...
 
And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. Genesis 1:31.

God called His creation good. Adam and Eve were created in a state of innocence. And if this be the case, why did they sin?

The WCF reads:
God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy council of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass. Chapter 3, section 1.

And we also know God does not tempt anyone with evil, Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one. James 1:13.
This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5.

Now Adam and Eve had no reason or motive to sin. Meaning they had absolutely no reason to sin. Adam and Eve were declared good, and if that be the case their inclinations were only good, they had no motive whatsoever. If they didn't have a complete desire to obey God and please Him, He wouldn't have called them good.

They simply did not have the means to sin because they didn't have a motive.

This is a serious problem that many theologians have (are dealing with) dealt with. Which is the problem of evil.


Thoughts?
`
That little word called 'Temptation' or 'Beguilement', brought to man by way of a fallen guardian cherubim who too exercised his freedom to choose, wrongly. God endowed all His creation with freewill. Clearly, freedom to choose was given in the Garden of Eden to man. Adam and Eve were not created with the knowledge of evil along with the good that they already knew. But I suppose that old cliche is true' you don't know what you got until it's gone" rings true. I mean that Tree of the Knowledge of good and evil and all, really benched us all. when the captain-star player of the team gets put on the bench the whole team gets penalized. The whole team feels the effects.

It wasn't that, that tree had a knowledge per-say but it represented a boundary, that if crossed has a penalty. For good Adam and Eve already knew in the act of obedience. Crossing the boundary, now they knew both. But that is freewill. Crossing that boundary and eating of which God said not to shows God gave us freedom of choice.

Genesis 2:
16And the LORD God commanded him, “You may eat freely from every tree of the garden, 17but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die.”…

God created satan, but it is not that cut and dry. This is why. Clearly, God created the angels in His goodness. However, He imbued them (unlike Adam and Eve in the beginning), with the knowledge of good and evil. The heavenly angels have freewill to choose. It became desirable to Lucifer to serve himself. So, since God is the measure by which to measure what is good and pleasing and what is not, He called Lucifer's actions of self-governance- evil! Therefore, by calling Lucifer evil God made evil, because He is the measure of it-determines it. He gave it a name-satan (betrayer of God) and threw it out.

For God decides what is evil and what is good, He makes evil by choice and measure of His creation's actions through their freedom of choice. God, desiring all to choose good, He knows they will choose what they will. Since no one made Lucifer sin there is no salvation for him. He did not do what was innate to him but what was knowledgeable to him. and it felt good to him. Hence, why it feels good to serve self and why so many do it. God doesn't call it temptation for nothing to us humans.

Ezekiel 28:
‘You were the seal of perfection,

full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.

13You were in Eden,

the garden of God.

Every kind of precious stone adorned you:

ruby, topaz, and diamond,

beryl, onyx, and jasper,

sapphire, turquoise, and emerald.

Your mountings and settings were crafted in gold,

prepared on the day of your creation.

14You were anointed as a guardian cherub,

for I had ordained you.

You were on the holy mountain of God;

you walked among the fiery stones.

15From the day you were created

you were blameless in your ways—

until wickedness was found in you.

16By the vastness of your trade,

you were filled with violence, and you sinned.

So I drove you in disgrace

from the mountain of God,

and I banished you, O guardian cherub,

from among the fiery stones.

17Your heart grew proud of your beauty;

you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor;

so I cast you to the earth;

Isaiah 45: I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I, Yahweh, do all these things.”. I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil. I am Jehovah, that doeth all these things. For he formed light, and he created darkness, he made peace, and he created evil.

If God did not call Lucifer evil, if He did not make him the epitome of it, then there would be no standard. Evil is only known to be as such because God says what is good and what is evil. The tree actually held no knowledge in and of itself as I said. It represented a boundary and choice. If you cross the line and disobey God's command, you open yourself up to the knowledge of evil. For good Adam and Eve already knew by way of obedience. The brain, therefore, after the fall of Adam and eve- becomes like a Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

We see the saga play out concerning fallen man's dilemmas throughout the record of the scriptures and the history of all cultures. However, God chose a group of people and called them elect to show His perspective. We are given problems by the devil, our fallen flesh and the world- as men of the fallen nature- build. All the solutions are given by God so forth and so on till the end when the curse is no more. By faith we master the flesh and with Christ -in the renewal of the mind we possess the Tree of Life within.
 
Last edited:
.
Rom 8:7 . .The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law
of God, neither indeed can be.

If we may safely assume that the carnal mind wasn't intrinsic in human nature till
after the forbidden fruit incident, then it becomes readily apparent that Adam didn't
taste the fruit due to it being his nature to circumvent the rules.

For example: why does Adam's posterity J-walk, run red lights, fail to being their
car to a halt at STOP signs, exceed the speed limit, drive too slow, refuse to let cars
blend in from on-ramps, and/or park in a handicapped space? Well; that's probably
due to their carnal mind's influence.

But Adam didn't as yet have a carnal mind. He had a mind given him by God; and
yet Adam took a course of action that he knew in advance was taboo.
_
 
Going on a little tangent here ...

Premise 1: James 1:13
And we also know God does not tempt anyone with evil,
Premise 2:
Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the [Holy] Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Explain the verses such that they don't contradict each other.
 
Going on a little tangent here ...

Premise 1: James 1:13

Premise 2:
Matthew 4:1 Then Jesus was led by the [Holy] Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.

Explain the verses such that they don't contradict each other.
I don't see a contradiction. Please explain.
 
I don't see a contradiction. Please explain.
James 1:13 says God doesn't tempt anyone ... while Matthew 4:1 says God lead Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted.
Seems like the two verses contradict each other to me. If you don't think so, just ignore my query.

I've heard a couple explanations. I wondered what your view point is.
 
.
Rom 8:7 . .The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law
of God, neither indeed can be.

If we may safely assume that the carnal mind wasn't intrinsic in human nature till
after the forbidden fruit incident, then it becomes readily apparent that Adam didn't
taste the fruit due to it being his nature to circumvent the rules.

For example: why does Adam's posterity J-walk, run red lights, fail to being their
car to a halt at STOP signs, exceed the speed limit, drive too slow, refuse to let cars
blend in from on-ramps, and/or park in a handicapped space? Well; that's probably
due to their carnal mind's influence.

But Adam didn't as yet have a carnal mind. He had a mind given him by God; and
yet Adam took a course of action that he knew in advance was taboo.
_
Yup the carnal mind is enmity against God. Hence why I said the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil really did not have knowledge of itself. So, yes, crossing the boundary was enmity against God. So, your point?

My point is the thought would not have crossed Eve's or Adam's mind had it not been for that serpent. Period! The thought entered their minds by way of an external force not internal. A bad influence can be a trap for the innocent and lead them to corruption. God works out man's salvation none the less. And here we are! A time prophesied to bring about the end of the age. Christ was the beginning of the end that the Elect of this generation will see.
 
We fail to understand the nature of pure Adam's delight in Eve, they were one flesh (Ge 2:23-24), she being made in Adam's image (1 Co 11:7).
"For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God, but woman is the glory of man."

In the image or glory of man?
 
James 1:13 says God doesn't tempt anyone ... while Matthew 4:1 says God lead Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted.
Seems like the two verses contradict each other to me. If you don't think so, just ignore my query.

I've heard a couple explanations. I wondered what your view point is.
It reads Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. God didn't tempt him. I believe this is fulfilling scripture as Christ being tempted in all ways like we are. And is also a great explanation (illustration) that the devil is God's devil.

Great question brother. But I don't see it as God doing the tempting.
 
Last edited:
.
Eve was first to taste the forbidden fruit; and when she did, nothing
happened. She went right on the buff same as before and it wasn't till Adam
tasted the fruit that her perception of decency was altered and she covered
her pelvic area with an apron.

But I think Adam was at least cautious at first, and kept a wary eye on his
wife for some time waiting to see if she would get sick; and when she didn't,
he surely had to wonder if maybe he misunderstood God.

I think most husbands would sympathize with Adam. I mean: he was told by
a supposedly competent source that the forbidden tree was unfit for human
consumption. But here's your wife sitting right beside you happily munching
away and she's still healthy, lucid, and exhibiting no ill side effects. How is a
reasonable man supposed to argue with empirical evidence as good as that?
_

So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

I wonder how long it was between Eve's bite and Adams bite.
 
So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate.

I wonder how long it was between Eve's bite and Adams bite.
Probably somewhere between 1500-2000 years.

Haha, just kidding.
 
Adam's desire for Eve, not to part with her, was the motive.

Adam had a choice to make between two goods in opposition to one another, Eve and God.
He loved the creature more than the Creator.
Wrong choice.
I am not sure the text supports your conclusion.
Genesis 3:6 says "she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate."
So he was right there with her during the discussion with the snake. Note that he didn't stop her.

When confronted by God he says:
“The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” Genesis 3:12
If he ate the fruit because he didn't want to be parted from her, he would have said that to God. He didn't.
 
James 1:13 says God doesn't tempt anyone ... while Matthew 4:1 says God lead Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted.
Seems like the two verses contradict each other to me. If you don't think so, just ignore my query.

I've heard a couple explanations. I wondered what your view point is.
Correct! God temps no man satan does. Christ was led by the Holy Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted not by God but by the devil. And as the Lord prayer states, " Lead us not INTO temptation but deliver us from evil". Being led to be tempted which means confronted by the devil, does not mean being lead into the temptation and sin. Point is, as we are led by the Spirit of God things in the world will confront us and tempt us, being confronted does not mean led into.

Read and discern. This is a misnomer by many who try to interpret the Lord's prayer and the biblical account of the tempting of Christ. The bottom line is, Christ represents us, the desert =the fallen world. There is no nourishment of the world for believers. We are confronted daily by the world , the flesh and the devil-TEMPTATION. However, as the Lord's prayer indicates, "lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil" Christ never entered INTO the temptation but was delivered by faith from it. And that is what children of God are to do, trust in the Lord and lean not on our own strength as Christ demonstrated.
 
I am not sure the text supports your conclusion.
Genesis 3:6 says "she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate."
So he was right there with her during the discussion with the snake. Note that he didn't stop her.

When confronted by God he says:
“The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit of the tree, and I ate.” Genesis 3:12
If he ate the fruit because he didn't want to be parted from her, he would have said that to God. He didn't.
Amen great point!
 
Now Adam and Eve had no reason or motive to sin. Meaning they had absolutely no reason to sin. Adam and Eve were declared good, and if that be the case their inclinations were only good, they had no motive whatsoever. If they didn't have a complete desire to obey God and please Him, He wouldn't have called them good.

They simply did not have the means to sin because they didn't have a motive.

This is a serious problem that many theologians have (are dealing with) dealt with. Which is the problem of evil.


Thoughts?

Although evil is negative, God's purpose, which is his own glory, is positive. God is the only one who possesses intrinsic worth, and if he decides that the existence of evil serves to glorify him, then the decree is by definition good and justified – because he thinks it is good and justified. Anyone who thinks that God's glory is not worth the death and suffering of billions of people, especially those who will be tortured in hell forever, has too high an opinion of himself and humanity. A creature's worth is conferred by his creator, according to the purpose for which the creator made him. Since God is the sole standard of measurement, if he thinks that something is justified, then it is by definition justified.

Many people, including those who claim to be Christians, would challenge God's right and justice in decreeing and causing the existence of evil for his own purpose. Paul anticipates a similar objection when he discusses the doctrine of election, in which God creates some people for salvation and creates some for damnation: Romans 9:19-23

There is no standard of goodness or righteousness apart from God to judge what he says and does; rather, whatever he says and does is a revelation of the standard of goodness and righteousness. Since God calls himself good, and since God has defined goodness for us by revealing his nature and commands, evil is thus defined as anything that is contrary to his nature and commands. Since God is good, and since he is the only definition of goodness, it is also good that he decreed and caused the existence of evil. There is no standard of good and evil by which we can denounce his decree and action as wrong or evil. This does not mean that evil is good – that would be a contradiction – but it means that God's decree and causation of evil are good.
Since we derive our very concept and definition of goodness from God, to accuse him of evil would be to say that good is evil, which is a contradiction. Therefore, men cannot say, "Because God is good (according to our false standard of goodness), he must not and would not do this or that." Instead, we must say, "Because God is good (according to his own standard of good, which is the only true standard of good), if He does this or that, then it must be good." Thus if God has decreed and caused evil, then while evil is evil, it must be good that he has decreed evil. Psalm 76:10 "Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee; the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain." Genesis 45:8 "Ye thought evil against me, but God meant it unto good."

Vincent Cheung
 
Great question brother. But I don't see it as God doing the tempting.
... and that is the basis I have heard for explaining James 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God” [for temptation does not originate from God, but from our own flaws] for God cannot be tempted by [what is] evil, and He Himself tempts no one. 14 But each one is tempted when he is dragged away, enticed and baited [to commit sin] by his own [worldly] desire (lust, passion). AMP

My understanding: James is pointing out what the Christian should consider and address in his struggles as a Christian – he is not dealing with metaphysics. In other words, he is addressing his topics from the standpoint of a Christian relative to his immediate considerations and responsibilities, and not relative to broad metaphysical principles. Author Unknown
In layman's terms ... God brings about situation in which we are tempted, but the source of the temptation itself is our nature.
 
Although evil is negative, God's purpose, which is his own glory, is positive. God is the only one who possesses intrinsic worth, and if he decides that the existence of evil serves to glorify him, then the decree is by definition good and justified – because he thinks it is good and justified. Anyone who thinks that God's glory is not worth the death and suffering of billions of people, especially those who will be tortured in hell forever, has too high an opinion of himself and humanity. A creature's worth is conferred by his creator, according to the purpose for which the creator made him. Since God is the sole standard of measurement, if he thinks that something is justified, then it is by definition justified.

Many people, including those who claim to be Christians, would challenge God's right and justice in decreeing and causing the existence of evil for his own purpose. Paul anticipates a similar objection when he discusses the doctrine of election, in which God creates some people for salvation and creates some for damnation: Romans 9:19-23

There is no standard of goodness or righteousness apart from God to judge what he says and does; rather, whatever he says and does is a revelation of the standard of goodness and righteousness. Since God calls himself good, and since God has defined goodness for us by revealing his nature and commands, evil is thus defined as anything that is contrary to his nature and commands. Since God is good, and since he is the only definition of goodness, it is also good that he decreed and caused the existence of evil. There is no standard of good and evil by which we can denounce his decree and action as wrong or evil. This does not mean that evil is good – that would be a contradiction – but it means that God's decree and causation of evil are good.
Since we derive our very concept and definition of goodness from God, to accuse him of evil would be to say that good is evil, which is a contradiction. Therefore, men cannot say, "Because God is good (according to our false standard of goodness), he must not and would not do this or that." Instead, we must say, "Because God is good (according to his own standard of good, which is the only true standard of good), if He does this or that, then it must be good." Thus if God has decreed and caused evil, then while evil is evil, it must be good that he has decreed evil. Psalm 76:10 "Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee; the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain." Genesis 45:8 "Ye thought evil against me, but God meant it unto good."

Vincent Cheung
Vincent Cheung?

Really?
 
Back
Top