The Fall, How?

[Eleanor]

But it does require patience because she is not fast.

Yeah ... you're heard of him?
@CCShorts would be sympathetic to Cheung's viewpoint IMO

His concluding statement is sterling.

 

[Shulammite]

Supposedly it is maintained that they had no motive to sin.

The motive was what the serpent said not that she was thinking much about it before he said what he did. Clearly, she desired to be like God but the lesson is you can't be like God unless you listen to God The motive was the serpent's cunning, he played Eve's desire against her. The serpent was blamed, the scriptures are clear; " Because you have done this, cursed are you among all the beast of the earth, on your belly shall you crawl and dust shall you eat all days of your life". I thought we all knew the motive? Therefore, what you asked caused me to question your motive. It wasn't meant to be confrontational that is why I added the big "IF" concerning what you meantnothing more, nothing less.

 

[Sereni-tea]

Supposedly it is maintained that they had no motive to sin.

Ah, yes, I understand. Sorry!
As I said in my response to the OP I believe we have to tread carefully here. I also declined to agree with the statement that Adam and Eve were created in a state of innocence, though it is possible.
I believe that all we can accurately say is that they were tempted and gave in to temptation. Anything more that that I feel is speculation.

 

[Eleanor]

Ah, yes, I understand. Sorry!
As I said in my response to the OP I believe we have to tread carefully here. I also declined to agree with the statement that Adam and Eve were created in a state of innocence, though it is possible.
I believe that all we can accurately say is that they were tempted and gave in to temptation. Anything more that that I feel is speculation.

To say they were created in sin is the speculation.

God declares them good when he created them.
A state of sin is not good.

Nor is God the author of sin, that is a contradiction.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
● Gen 2:15-17 . .The Lord God took the man and placed him in the garden of Eden,
to till it and tend it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying: Of every tree
of the garden you are free to eat; but as for the tree of knowledge of good and bad,
you must not eat of it; for in the day you eat of it, you shall die.

That passage is a favorite among critics because Adam didn't drop dead the very
day he tasted the forbidden fruit. In point of fact, he continued to live outside the
garden of Eden for another 800 years after the birth of his son Seth (Gen 5:4). So;
is there a reasonable explanation for this apparent discrepancy?

The first thing to point out is that in order for his maker's warning to resonate in
Adam's thinking; it had to be related to death as he understood death in his own
day rather than death as modern Sunday school classes construe it in their day. In
other words: Adam's concept of death was primitive, i.e. normal and natural rather
than spiritual.

As far as can be known from scripture, Man is the only specie that God created in
His own image, viz: a creature blessed with perpetual youth. The animal kingdom
was given nothing like it.

That being the case, then I think it's safe to assume that death was common all
around Adam by means of vegetation, birds, bugs, and beasts so that it wasn't a
strange new word in his vocabulary; i.e. God didn't have to take a moment and
define death for Adam seeing as how it was doubtless a common occurrence in his
everyday life.

Adam saw grasses spout. He saw them grow to maturity, bloom with flowers, and
produce seeds. He watched as they withered, became dry and brittle, and then
dissolve into nothing. So I think we can be reasonably confident that Adam was up
to speed on at least the natural aspects of death and fully understood that if he
went ahead and tasted the forbidden fruit his body would lose its perpetual youth
and end up no more permanent than grass.

In other words; had Adam not eaten of the forbidden tree, he would've remained in
perfect health but the very day that he tasted its fruit, his body became infected
with mortality, i.e. he lost perpetual youth and began to age; a condition easily
remedied by the tree of life but alas, Adam was denied access to it.

Adam was supposed to die on the very day he tasted the forbidden fruit and he did;
only in a natural way-- subtly and not readily observed rather than instantly. The
thing is: the aging process is like cancer in that it's a lingering, walking death
rather than sudden death, i.e. mortality is slow, but very relentless: like Arnold
Swarzenegger's movie character "The Terminator"-- mortality feels neither pain nor
pity, nor remorse nor fear; it cannot be reasoned with nor can it be bargained with,
and it absolutely will not stop-- ever! --until your body is so broken down that it
cannot continue.

"A voice said: Shout! I asked: What should I shout? Shout that people are like the
grass that dies away. Their beauty fades as quickly as the beauty of flowers in a
field. The grass withers, and the flowers fade beneath the breath of The Lord. And
so it is with people. The grass withers, and the flowers fade, but the word of our
God stands forever." (Isa 40:6-8)
_

 

[Sereni-tea]

To say they were created in sin is the speculation.

God declares them good when he created them.
A state of sin is not good.

Nor is God the author of sin, that is a contradiction.

I never said they were created in sin. I absolutely agree that God is not the author of sin. And I said that in post #2.
I also questioned what the word 'good' means. I believe it is not a comment of morally purity but rather refers to creation conforming to God's purposes - which could include moral goodness, but they could also have been morally neutral - neither good or bad, but with the potential for obedience or disobedience.

 

[Eleanor]

.
● Gen 2:15-17 . .The Lord God took the man and placed him in the garden of Eden,
to till it and tend it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying: Of every tree
of the garden you are free to eat; but as for the tree of knowledge of good and bad,
you must not eat of it; for in the day you eat of it, you shall die.
That passage is a favorite among critics because Adam didn't drop dead the very
day he tasted the forbidden fruit. In point of fact, he continued to live outside the
garden of Eden for another 800 years after the birth of his son Seth (Gen 5:4). So;
is there a reasonable explanation for this apparent discrepancy?

The first thing to point out is that in order for his maker's warning to resonate in
Adam's thinking; it had to be related to death as he understood death in his own
day rather than death as modern Sunday school classes construe it in their day. In
other words: Adam's concept of death was primitive, i.e. normal and natural rather
than spiritual.

As far as can be known from scripture, Man is the only specie that God created in
His own image, viz: a creature blessed with perpetual youth. The animal kingdom
was given nothing like it.

That being the case, then I think it's safe to assume that death was common all
around Adam by means of vegetation, birds, bugs, and beasts so that it wasn't a
strange new word in his vocabulary; i.e. God didn't have to take a moment and
define death for Adam seeing as how it was doubtless a common occurrence in his
everyday life.

Adam saw grasses spout. He saw them grow to maturity, bloom with flowers, and
produce seeds. He watched as they withered, became dry and brittle, and then
dissolve into nothing. So I think we can be reasonably confident that Adam was up
to speed on at least the natural aspects of death and fully understood that if he
went ahead and tasted the forbidden fruit his body would lose its perpetual youth
and end up no more permanent than grass.

In other words; had Adam not eaten of the forbidden tree, he would've remained in
perfect health but the very day that he tasted its fruit, his body became infected
with mortality, i.e. he lost perpetual youth and began to age; a condition easily
remedied by the tree of life but alas, Adam was denied access to it.

Adam was supposed to die on the very day he tasted the forbidden fruit and he did;
only in a natural way-- subtly and not readily observed rather than instantly.

"Dying, you shall die."(Ge 2:17)
He lost eternal life that day, God's own divine eternal life within his immortal spirit,
which loss is eternal death, not death of his human immortal spirit, but loss of
eternal life within that spirit.
We receive that life again in our immortal spirits at the new birth.

The thing is: the aging process is like cancer in that it's a lingering, walking death
rather than sudden death, i.e. mortality is slow, but very relentless: like Arnold
Swarzenegger's movie character "The Terminator"-- mortality feels neither pain nor
pity, nor remorse nor fear; it cannot be reasoned with nor can it be bargained with,
and it absolutely will not stop-- ever! --until your body is so broken down that it
cannot continue.

"A voice said: Shout! I asked: What should I shout? Shout that people are like the
grass that dies away. Their beauty fades as quickly as the beauty of flowers in a
field. The grass withers, and the flowers fade beneath the breath of The Lord. And
so it is with people. The grass withers, and the flowers fade, but the word of our
God stands forever." (Isa 40:6-8)

 

[Shulammite]

I never said they were created in sin. I absolutely agree that God is not the author of sin. And I said that in post #2.
I also questioned what the word 'good' means. I believe it is not a comment of morally purity but rather refers to creation conforming to God's purposes - which could include moral goodness, but they could also have been morally neutral - neither good or bad, but with the potential for obedience or disobedience.

?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Now Adam and Eve had no reason or motive to sin. Meaning they had absolutely no reason to sin. Adam and Eve were declared good, and if that be the case their inclinations were only good, they had no motive whatsoever. If they didn't have a complete desire to obey God and please Him, He wouldn't have called them good.

They simply did not have the means to sin because they didn't have a motive.

Eve's Motivations are given. She saw that: "the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise". In a nutshell "Personal Desire" ("Lust" in james 1).

And, of course there was the "Enticement" by satan, telling her that God was a liar who wanted to hold her down, and prevent her from "being like Him". James 1:14,15 followed exactly. Eve's DESIRE "Conceived" and "birthed" rebellious actions = SIN.

Apparently, Adam and Eve already had "Sin natures", because they BOTH "Fell for it" exactly as described in James 1. SO NOTHING in their human natures "Changed" - except that they were now both "Spiritually dead". just like all of us, when we SIN the first time.

 

[Arial]

Apparently, Adam and Eve already had "Sin natures", because they BOTH "Fell for it" exactly as described in James 1. SO NOTHING in their human natures "Changed" - except that they were now both "Spiritually dead". just like all of us, when we SIN the first time.

If this is so it brings up a couple of questions I would be interested to see your answer to.

Are you suggesting that God created something with a sin nature? That would indeed make Him the first cause of sin, and He would be responsible, not us.

Is sin a creation? Or is it simply disobedience to our Father?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

If this is so it brings up a couple of questions I would be interested to see your answer to.

Are you suggesting that God created something with a sin nature? That would indeed make Him the first cause of sin, and He would be responsible, not us.

Is sin a creation? Or is it simply disobedience to our Father?

"Sin Nature" is nothing more than a "theological creation", coined according to the paradigm of the creating religious system to explain what "theologians" THINK happened to Adam and Eve after they SINNED.

I don't personally ascribe to "Sin Nature" / "Fallen Nature" /"Corrupt Nature" or any of the other theological "Buzz words" that theologians have created.

IN MY OPINION - Adam's nature NEVER CHANGED. He, and Eve were created with a HUMAN NATURE just like yours and mine. When they "FELL", they followed the "Temptation sequence" found in James 1:14,15 precisely, just like we do, and allowed their LUST to conceive, resulting in sinful actions.

What CHANGED in Adam/Eve after they SINNED was that, as God had warned, they BOTH DIED Spiritually, instantly, when they sinned, just like WE do. But they still had THE SAME HUMAN NATURE afterwards.

SIN has always been "Disobedience ", known or unknown, To God. Sin is that which works EVIL whether it was a "Transgression of a known law", or an ignorant action which had an evil result.

What was CURSED at that point in addition to the "Serpent", was the EARTH. Adam and Eve's ENVIRONMENT changed (for their sakes), and there was no "Free lunch" in the garden any more. Adam now had to WORK to survive and Eve's "Pain in childbirth" was increased. But Adam and Eve WERE NOT CURSED!!!

Jesus had/has a Human Nature like us, and was tempted in every respect AS WE ARE (one detailed instance: Luke 4:1-13).

Jesus followed the same James 1:14 sequence, BUT NEVER LET HIS STRONG PERSONAL DESIRE (Lust) Conceive, and birth sinful actions. That Jesus wasn't very fond of being tortured to death is seen in Mat 26:39, but he remained OBEDIENT to his calling.

 

[Arial]

"Sin Nature" is nothing more than a "theological creation", coined according to the paradigm of the creating religious system to explain what "theologians" THINK happened to Adam and Eve after they SINNED.

You would need to give support for that statement if you are going to make it. The theological support is found in scripture. Romans 3:9-12
9 What then? Are we Jews[a] any better off?[b] No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
Romans 5

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[e] because all sinned

18 Therefore, as one trespass[f] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[g] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

 

[Ritajanice]

I often wonder if Adam and Eve truly knew the consequences/ repercussions of going against God.

I certainly do.....he told me to keep away from someone, he spoke to my heart.

I got the message...had me shivering in me boots!!....I’ve never been near that person since....and NEVER will...my testimony and thoughts.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

I often wonder if Adam and Eve truly knew the consequences/ repercussions of going against God.

Probably not. After all, satan told 'em that God was a liar, and they believed satan. when they died spiritually, their perception changed.

I certainly do.....he told me to keep away from someone, he spoke to my heart.

I got the message...had me shivering in me boots!!..

God's WORD to us personally has that effect.

I remember when God told me to Join a company in Dallas I was interviewing with, and it made ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE intellectually. But looking back, it was one of the best things I ever did.

Same, when He told me to start a Bluegrass band, which I wanted no part of, but it became one of the biggest blessings in my life.

I'm sure that when God told Abraham to go kill his Son in a mountain top, Abraham wasn't too thrilled -

 

[Bob Carabbio]

You would need to give support for that statement if you are going to make it. The theological support is found in scripture. Romans 3:9-12
9 What then? Are we Jews[a] any better off?[b] No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:

“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
Romans 5

12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men[e] because all sinned

18 Therefore, as one trespass[f] led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness[g] leads to justification and life for all men. 19 For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous.

I was "made a SINNER" when I sinned, just like everybody else.

 

[Eleanor]

I was "made a SINNER" when I sinned, just like everybody else.

You are by nature, an object of God's wrath (Eph 2:3), from which Jesus saves (Ro 5:9).
You were born with your nature.
You didn't have to personally sin to be an object of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).

 

[Bob Carabbio]

You are by nature, an object of God's wrath (Eph 2:3), from which Jesus saves (Ro 5:9).
You were born with your nature.
You didn't have to personally sin to be an object of God's wrath (Eph 2:3).

That's a popular Theological "opinion". SO - as far as you're concerned an aborted, or newborn baby who dies, is subject to incineration.

 

[Arial]

I was "made a SINNER" when I sinned, just like everybody else.

That you would sin was a guarantee. Why is that?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

That you would sin was a guarantee. Why is that?

Because I Have a "Human nature", just like you.

Why did YOU decide to SIN??

 

[Arial]

Because I Have a "Human nature", just like you.

Why did YOU decide to SIN??

How did you get that human nature that is guaranteed to sin?

The difference between the nature God created us with---good with no experience of even what sin was----and the nature that came to all men because of his choice to do what God said not to, is that the nature of humanity changed. Before we had no knowledge of evil. Now we do. If Adam hadn't done what he did we still wouldn't have knowledge of evil.