Back to the Garden...or not.

[Arial]

Well, if you reject the 'imputed righteousness' of Christ to the believer by declaration, forever, and have the believer secure in his maintaining of his own righteousness, isn't that a form of independence from God? You might say no, because the believers righteousness is now the righteousness of God. But, it leaves the believer in charge of that righteousness, becaue it is no longer imputed. Adam and eve were not under the imputed righteusness of God.

Maybe I will get back to this later to deal with the details. For the moment I will post my first reaction. Don't you trust God at all? Maybe you will recognize why I say that, maybe not. Hopefully you won't take offense. I actually believe you do trust God but simply don't realize that what you said here would be a form of not trusting him.

When you say 'until the consumation' that is a problem with me. How can anything brought about in Christ's role in God's plan of salvation, be considered 'until'? (Heb. 10:14) "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." If I understand you correctly you seem to be saying all these things accomplished by Christ, were to get us there. But once we are there we can be trusted to be on our own in pleasing God. And because of that, 'imputed rightousness' is no longer necessary as we will be as righteous as God.

Everything is until. In the OT it is until "the seed of the woman will bruise your (serpent) heel and he will crush your head". With Abraham it is both until his descendants take possession of the land promised and until the seed comes. In Israel it is until the Messiah comes. In the NT when the Messiah comes, it is right now, but not yet until he returns. (The consummation of redemption.) Everything until then are birth pains.

Imputed righteousness is no longer necessary ( I will say for the umpteenth time) because we have been changed. No longer in Adam. No longer capable of dying. No longer capable of being corrupted. Why? Because Christ has made all his enemies a footstool beneath his feet. Sin, the devil, evil, will no longer exist. And the last enemy is death. We have been made righteous by Christ. You err when you think that God does not want people to be actually righteous----which is full obedience to him as his image bearers. Is it not Jesus who says, "Be perfect even as I am perfect."? There is scriptural evidence for all that I say above. I don't present it because I am assuming that you are familiar with the Bible and know it says those things. And if I did quote the scriptures or even list them, I would be here for hours and the post would be walls of texts like @donadams is infamous for.

But there is one 1 Cor 15 that I have brought up a number of times, even asked for your interpretation of it, and have never seen that happen. And I bring attention to the entire chapter because it is a case of Paul building from a starting point to its conclusion and I hate just quoting the conclusion. But I will.




50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, for your own edification, I suggest you read that whole chapter because the buildup to the above is very insightful.

 

[Arial]

Well, if all are righteous in that blessed state you describe, if that righteouness was the imputed righteousness of Christ, how would that change anything?

Because if the righteousness was only imputed and not actual, it suggests something that isn't true. Which is, that God never wanted his image bearers to be actually righteous. that it was not falling from actual righteousness that Jesus came as one of us, and died to accomplish, but rather was to destroy actual righteousness, so that righteousness would only be imputed.

Maybe you do not correctly understand the meaning of imputation. And maybe you deny the imputed sin of Adam, and maybe you deny or do not understand substitutionary atonement. I just can't tell. But any or all of those things would explain the disconnect in our communication. So help me out in that regard.

I don't believe it is absurd. God made Adam and Eve sinless, not righteous as God is righteous.

Sinless is what righteousness is. God is righteousness, it is not just an attribute. The creature is not God, but is made in his image and likeness. Therefore man as a creature subject to God is commanded and obligated to obey him in all things and always. He was created without sin in him but with the ability to disobey. Which he did, and it changed everything. It is the disobedience of Adam and all his progeny that Jesus came to deal with. He came to destroy sin and its consequences. He does this by redeeming them. (Surely I do not need to give the details of how he did this.) But the imputed sin of Adam to all of us and the sins we commit, is what had to be turned on its head, so that those who he redeems become (at just the right time) not only truly righteous---always obedient---but also no longer able to be corrupted by sin.

You said Jesus righteousness keeps us in Him until His return. So I asked, 'but Jesus righteousness no longer keeps us when we get to Heaven? I am saying He keeps us because we are in His righteousness by imputation, forever.

I refuse to say it all again.

 

[Mr GLee]

I mean, will the blood of Christ still be necessary for us in Heaven? In Heaven, are we still under the blood forever? Or was that just to get us to Heaven? In other words, are you saying, when we get to Heaven, the blood of Christ has done it's job and we are no longer in need of it to keep us in Heaven. (Heb. 9:14) "...by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.."

I would offer God is not a man as us

Remember the life of the flesh is in the blood. That life is spirit life in unseen spiritual .

Flesh and Blood along with water represent the Holy Spirit unseen.

In that way Christ pouring out His Spirit life of on dying flesh and blood

The blood of the living sacrifice must be poured out to show new spirit life was given it "flesh and blood" returns to the field of clay from as beast of the field which it was formed

Water used as metaphors in parables in all manners small rain, dew, frost, showers of rain, sweat or spit Indicated the father is working in and with Jesus

Luke 22:44 And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were (denotes a parable) great drops of blood falling down to the ground.

That helps me understand that which some call sign gifts Charismatics. They turn metaphors used in parables as a witness to indicate the unseen work of Christ working in them. One metaphor of that parable poison of serepent (false prophecy0Has ben challenged mor tha mo dies to prove no such thing as sign gift . Faith as a labor of Christ's love gift . . yes eternal life

Mark 16:17-19;And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Sign follow prophecy . . the power of Christ .They do not lead by wondering wondeing.

The voice of the father of lies

Deceiving some to believe wondering sign is true prophecy.

Satan cannot see past the tip of his nose . King of wonder limbo, purgatory

 

[makesends]

Lees said:
The sacrifice of Christ was accomplished on earth but affected things eternal. (Heb. 9:12-14) I don't see how the restoration changes anything of what I have said.

@makesends I am struggling with the difference between affect and effect here, even after I do a Google search to refresh my former teaching. So I call on you. I am tempted to say that the eternal cannot be affected. And neither can it be effected.

But back to post:The restoration changes what you have said because the premise you are working from is incorrect. Now, maybe it is just a matter of talking sideways of each other, but if we can only be in eternity dwelling with God if we have imputed righteousness instead of actual righteousness, even after the work that Christ did, then the redeem and changed have not been changed and would still be subject to falling into sin--- just as we are right now. It is that imputed righteousness that prevents present re-condemnation.

I'm not sure which one @Lees intends there. It is sure that some of the things we do temporally have eternal consequences, so those things have eternal effects (results). But God is the one to effect (bring into being) those consequences.

If he meant affect, there, he has a point that Christ's sacrifice affected (has influences in, or into) eternity, but I'm not sure why he said it, as it is more than obvious. But then, I haven't been following his exchange with you very closely.

 

[Lees]

The blood of Christ was shed on earth, on the cross, so yes, it is just as he said, "It is finished." "Finished" meaning the work necessary for redemption was complete. And it isn't only when we get to heaven that his shed blood has done its job----it has done its job on earth for those he shed it to purchase. Notice the words in the scripture you quote: "by his own blood he entered once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us." It is Christ's work on earth, the work he came to do, for the specific purpose of making redemption possible.

"Under the blood" is an expression I have only heard used in Charismatic circles, when I was in that circle. It became a catch phrase with the Copeland click in the 80's. I have no idea if it still is. But even then they were using it for the here and now and what they were using it for was to put it bluntly, as meaning if they say the right words in faith they can get whatever they want in the way of earthly things because God has to obey them.

So I don't know what you are thinking when you say it. I do not think it is the above. And there is no way I can know what is in your mind when you say it unless you define it with something other than the expression itself. The blood isn't necessary in heaven because it was shed on earth to achieve the purpose of redemption. And it was shed by Jesus.

That 'holy place' was in the heavens. Christ took His blood into the heavens and sprinkled it throughout the true Holy place in Heaven.

(Heb. 9:11-12) "But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, not of this building: Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, have obtained eternal redemptin for us."

The blood of Christ may have been shed on earth, but it was for 'heavenly' reasons. (Heb. 9:23-24) "It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. For Christ is not entered into the holy places made without hands, which are figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us."

And that blood is 'forever' there before God the Father and the Son to see. Isn't it?

'Under the Blood' is not a catch phrase with me. It means I am under the blood of Christ. That blood will forever be there in Heaven. I will never have any reason for being there except it is there. I will be forever a sinner, saved by grace, under the blood of Christ.

That blood is necessary in Heaven. The day it gets cleaned up, the day the blood is removed from the Holy places in Heaven, we no longer have a place there.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Of course it is. And for all the reasons I have said. What is the purpose of that in the earthly realm that I have said a number of times?

So do I. I have neither said nor implied otherwise. You are obviously taking it that way and I cannot untangle why. Other than your premise from the first paragraph of the OP seems "wonky" to me. And a premise that is off gets farther and farther off as doctrines are developed from the wrong premise. Even to the point that communication of ideas becomes a never ending forest of impossibility. The wrong premise imo, in this case would be that God could not create a human who was as righteous as he is without that person also being self righteous. That he could only create a person who was righteous apart from him. And so he set out to establish a means of imputed righteousness instead of actual righteousness. Personally, I can't fathom the reasoning and have never once in over forty years heard it.

@makesends I am struggling with the difference between affect and effect here, even after I do a Google search to refresh my former teaching. So I call on you. I am tempted to say that the eternal cannot be affected. And neither can it be effected.

But back to post:The restoration changes what you have said because the premise you are working from is incorrect. Now, maybe it is just a matter of talking sideways of each other, but if we can only be in eternity dwelling with God if we have imputed righteousness instead of actual righteousness, even after the work that Christ did, then the redeem and changed have not been changed and would still be subject to falling into sin--- just as we are right now. It is that imputed righteousness that prevents present re-condemnation.

Your point is that all was for the 'earthly realm'. To which I disagree. It carries into the heavenly and eternal realm.

No, I am not taking anything out of context. You are saying 'imputed righteousness' is for us on earth. But then once we are in heaven it is no longer imputed. I am saying 'imputed righteousness' is forever. We are always and forever be righteouss because we stand in the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Adam and Eve being sinless and therefore in their own righteousness, doesn't have the same definition today as to what we call 'self-righteouss'. I didn't say God created Adam and Eve righteous. He created them 'sinless'. They did not have the righteousness of God. They had the righteousness of the created being. Their righteousness would be displayed in the works they did before God.

If the blood of Christ is not necessary in Heaven, why is it there?

No, just the opposite. Becasuse we forever stand only in the imputed righteousness of Christ we are secure from ever falling into sin. Again, we are forever 'in Christ'. That means we are forever righteous by imputation only. if we are no longer righteous by 'imputation', then we are no longer 'in Christ'.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Maybe I will get back to this later to deal with the details. For the moment I will post my first reaction. Don't you trust God at all? Maybe you will recognize why I say that, maybe not. Hopefully you won't take offense. I actually believe you do trust God but simply don't realize that what you said here would be a form of not trusting him.

Everything is until. In the OT it is until "the seed of the woman will bruise your (serpent) heel and he will crush your head". With Abraham it is both until his descendants take possession of the land promised and until the seed comes. In Israel it is until the Messiah comes. In the NT when the Messiah comes, it is right now, but not yet until he returns. (The consummation of redemption.) Everything until then are birth pains.

Imputed righteousness is no longer necessary ( I will say for the umpteenth time) because we have been changed. No longer in Adam. No longer capable of dying. No longer capable of being corrupted. Why? Because Christ has made all his enemies a footstool beneath his feet. Sin, the devil, evil, will no longer exist. And the last enemy is death. We have been made righteous by Christ. You err when you think that God does not want people to be actually righteous----which is full obedience to him as his image bearers. Is it not Jesus who says, "Be perfect even as I am perfect."? There is scriptural evidence for all that I say above. I don't present it because I am assuming that you are familiar with the Bible and know it says those things. And if I did quote the scriptures or even list them, I would be here for hours and the post would be walls of texts like @donadams is infamous for.

But there is one 1 Cor 15 that I have brought up a number of times, even asked for your interpretation of it, and have never seen that happen. And I bring attention to the entire chapter because it is a case of Paul building from a starting point to its conclusion and I hate just quoting the conclusion. But I will.




50I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:

“Death is swallowed up in victory.”
55“O death, where is your victory?
O death, where is your sting?”
56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Now, for your own edification, I suggest you read that whole chapter because the buildup to the above is very insightful.

Yes, I do trust God. And I take no offense. I'm not sure how what I said indicates to you that I do not trust God. I have a hunch, but I am not going to spend time explaining when you may come back and say 'that's not what I meant'.

The blood of Christ shed is not 'until we get to Heaven'. The Sacrifice of Christ is not 'until we get to Heaven'. The imputation of Christ's righteousness to us is not 'until we get to Heaven'.

Again, if we are not under the imputed righteousness of Christ, then we are not 'in Christ'. (2 Cor. 5:21) "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (Phlippians 3:9) "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"

Well, (1 Cor. 15) is a long chapter. Why should I expound on the whole chapter not knowing the point your are trying to make, to just have you come back and say, no, I missed it. I am familiar with the chapter, but tell me what you think I need to know about it.

Lees

 

[Lees]

Because if the righteousness was only imputed and not actual, it suggests something that isn't true. Which is, that God never wanted his image bearers to be actually righteous. that it was not falling from actual righteousness that Jesus came as one of us, and died to accomplish, but rather was to destroy actual righteousness, so that righteousness would only be imputed.

Maybe you do not correctly understand the meaning of imputation. And maybe you deny the imputed sin of Adam, and maybe you deny or do not understand substitutionary atonement. I just can't tell. But any or all of those things would explain the disconnect in our communication. So help me out in that regard.

Sinless is what righteousness is. God is righteousness, it is not just an attribute. The creature is not God, but is made in his image and likeness. Therefore man as a creature subject to God is commanded and obligated to obey him in all things and always. He was created without sin in him but with the ability to disobey. Which he did, and it changed everything. It is the disobedience of Adam and all his progeny that Jesus came to deal with. He came to destroy sin and its consequences. He does this by redeeming them. (Surely I do not need to give the details of how he did this.) But the imputed sin of Adam to all of us and the sins we commit, is what had to be turned on its head, so that those who he redeems become (at just the right time) not only truly righteous---always obedient---but also no longer able to be corrupted by sin.

I refuse to say it all again.

God wanted His sons and daughters to be as righteous as He. And that He accomplished by 'imputation'. The righteousness of man does not place man before God in an acceptable state. Remember (Rom. 4:2-3) Abraham could glory in his good deeds if justified by works. He could glory in his righteousness which produced those good works. But God would not accept it. He could not glory in it before God. It was only the imputed righteousnes of God to Abraham that pleased God.

This is why God did not impute righteousness to Abraham when he left Ur of the Chaldees, though Abraham believed God concerning the promises He gave in (Gen. 12:1-3). It would not be until Abraham was in a place where he could do nothing but believe God that righteousness was imputed to him. At Ur, Abraham could always say I was counted righteous because of my obedience in leaving Ur. But in (Gen. 15:6) Abraham could do nothing because the LORD did not give him and Sarah a son. All he could do was 'believe'.

Why would I deny the imputed sin of Adam? Maybe we just disagree.

Sinlessness is not just what righteousness is. Jesus Christ not only paid for the sins of the world, but He offered himself without spot to God. (Heb. 9:14) that He might purge us from 'dead works' to serve God. Those dead works don't need to be sins. They can be our good works, our righteous works, but dead to God. It is Christ without spot, that is pleasing before God. It is us only in Christ that we stand pleasing before God. (Eph. 1:3-6) Which places us under the imputed righteousness of Christ. Makes us accepted in the beloved. (Eph. 1:6)

You are saying Adam and Eve were righteous as God. They were sinless. Placed under law to obey. And they had a will, so they had the ability to disobey. Hence, as I have said, a will in conflict with God's wil is sin. So if Adam and Eve were as righteous as God, and sinned against God, the possibility always remains in eternity that another can will against God. If you say no, because God has destroyed sin, sin is a will in conflict with God. So if we still have a will in Heaven, the possibility remains. Unless we as believers are a picture of the 'Stepford Wifes' movie. Are we Stepford Wife believers? I certainly don't believe that. And our protection from that comes, not from us with our own righteousness, but being in Christ, under the imputed righteousness of Him.

A faith based righteousness. Imputed righteousness. In Christ. Interestingly enough, Paul sets forth a New Testament definition of sin. Anything not of faith is sin. (Rom. 14:23)

Lees

 

[Mr GLee]

God wanted His sons and daughters to be as righteous as He. And that He accomplished by 'imputation'. The righteousness of man does not place man before God in an acceptable state. Remember (Rom. 4:2-3) Abraham could glory in his good deeds if justified by works. He could glory in his righteousness which produced those good works. But God would not accept it. He could not glory in it before God. It was only the imputed righteousnes of God to Abraham that pleased God.

Dying Mankind under a curse the appointment to die once could never be as righteous as Christ. The Righteous One.

No righteousness comes from the Son of man, Jesus (dying mankind) He displayed the righteousness of Christ the husband not seen

All sin and continual daily to fall short of the glory of "let there be" and "it was God good" all the days of their lives

Only in Christ the "let there be" power of the Father is sin not taken into account

1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Arial]

God wanted His sons and daughters to be as righteous as He. And that He accomplished by 'imputation'. The righteousness of man does not place man before God in an acceptable state. Remember (Rom. 4:2-3) Abraham could glory in his good deeds if justified by works. He could glory in his righteousness which produced those good works. But God would not accept it. He could not glory in it before God. It was only the imputed righteousnes of God to Abraham that pleased God.

It was Abraham's faith that pleased God. Not imputed righteousness. Righteousness cannot be imputed until the debt for sin is satisfied by one who is without sin. Please read the link to gain an understanding of the biblical definition of imputed righteousness.
biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Impute-Imputation

Until then I am out of the conversation as it is accomplishing absolutely nothing. I will only give further comments if they are addressing the material in the link. Otherwise we will simply talk past each other and go around in more circles.

 

[Lees]

It was Abraham's faith that pleased God. Not imputed righteousness. Righteousness cannot be imputed until the debt for sin is satisfied by one who is without sin. Please read the link to gain an understanding of the biblical definition of imputed righteousness.
biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Impute-Imputation

Until then I am out of the conversation as it is accomplishing absolutely nothing. I will only give further comments if they are addressing the material in the link. Otherwise we will simply talk past each other and go around in more circles.

Yes, Abraham's faith did please God. As a result, righteousness was imputed to him. (Gen. 15:6) "And he believed in the LORD: and he counted it to him for righteousness."

(Rev. 13:8) "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

God is able to impute righteousness to any who exercised believing faith, and base it upon the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Though in their time frame the Cross was future, in God's time frame it covered all from the beginning of the world. Just like with those under the Mosaic Law were saved by faith, not because of the animal sacrifices, but because of Christ's sacrifice, which they represented.

(Rom. 4:4-8) "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him, that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the LORD will not impute sin."

Lees

 

[CrowCross]

Enter the serpent. Why did God let/put the serpent into the Garden? Some may say in order for man to exercise his will. But, God would already know how man's will would respond. And, a will not in harmony with God's will, is sin. In fact it was the first sin in the universe. (Is. 14:12-15) And when we are all in Heaven with a glorified and sinless body, will we ever will contrary to God's will? For to do so is sin.

The serpent sinned first...His name was Lucifer. Isaiah 14 is about him.

Thus the fall of man was part of God's plan for what He wanted man to be

Hard to say. Perhaps that's true. One could say for God to be God He had to demonstrate all of His nature...you know, love, compassion and so on....where one of the so on's was grace, mercy and justice... if A&E didn't fall then He might not be able to show grace mercy and justice.

So, innocent and sinless man is not what God wanted. And to get to what God wanted, the serpent was let/put in the Garden. The fall of man was necessary to elevate man far beyond what he was in the Garden.

I don't think the fall of man elevated man but did just the opposite. Remember if it wasn't for Jesus stepping out of heaven and dying on the cross we would all end up in hell. That doesn't sound too elevating to me.

 

[Mr GLee]

It was Abraham's faith that pleased God. Not imputed righteousness. Righteousness cannot be imputed until the debt for sin is satisfied by one who is without sin. Please read the link to gain an understanding of the biblical definition of imputed righteousness.

I would offer.

The debt was satisfied in the 6 days the father did work by his powerful faith labor of love . "Let there be. . a good testimony ".

The slaying the lamb or bruising of the heel of the Son of man Jesus.

Its unseen work was "demonstrated" thousands of years later. In a parable

Three days and nights, (belly of whale or heart of earth. Three different demonstrations used as parables.

The suffering of the father and Son working as one. It began in the garden the father striking the Son of man . Then moved to the Hill the bloody demonstration and the last demonstration the tomb

Most rely on the bloody demonstration as sign to the unbelieving world. Believers have prophecy fulfilled. . the bruising of the heel. Again, the work of two dynamic duo.

Then the cross the Satan inspired crowd. Giving the illusion Satan is accredited with the suffering (salvation)

Abraham had the same work of Christ's powerful faith as an unseen a "labor love" working in him as the same powerful faith that does with us today

We are not saved by sinful dying Moses as if he was the one source of Christian faith

That would clearly be blasphemy of the Spirit denying Christ the husband's power (faith)

James 2: 7Do not they blaspheme that worthy name (Christ) by the which ye are called?

Neither Rehab both used as one example whatever is accredited to Abraham the same applies to Rehab our sister in the Lord

James 2:23-26And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God .Ye see then how that by works (Christ's) a man is justified, and not by (Christ's faith only. (Let there be ) Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, (Christ's)when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
;For as the body without the spirit (Christ) is dead, so (powerful) faith (Christ). without works (Christ)is dead also.

Why let the king of lying signs to wonder after as if his lying prophecy as oral traditions of dying makind is source of living faith (sola scriptura)

He would proclaim God does need faith\power. . the unseen spiritual understanding in order to work .And it was good.

Dead faith no power "Let there be" and nothing changes nothing

 

[Lees]

The serpent sinned first...His name was Lucifer. Isaiah 14 is about him.

Hard to say. Perhaps that's true. One could say for God to be God He had to demonstrate all of His nature...you know, love, compassion and so on....where one of the so on's was grace, mercy and justice... if A&E didn't fall then He might not be able to show grace mercy and justice.

I don't think the fall of man elevated man but did just the opposite. Remember if it wasn't for Jesus stepping out of heaven and dying on the cross we would all end up in hell. That doesn't sound too elevating to me.

Yes, due to the fall of man, Jesus stepped out of heaven and died on the Cross for us. Thus placing believing man 'in Christ'. Imputing the righteous of Christ to him. As well as man receiving the very Spirit of Christ. (Rom. 8:9)

I do consider that an elevation from man in the Garden.

Lees

 

[Arial]

Yes, Abraham's faith did please God. As a result, righteousness was imputed to him. (Gen. 15:6) "And he believed in the LORD: and he counted it to him for righteousness."

So you did not read the link, are just going tokeep repeating yourself? It would seem to me that if it was possible that I kept talking about imputation and it was pointed out that maybe I did not understand biblical imputation, and therefore everything I was saying about it was wrong, I would check so as not to continue to be embarrassed and present convoluted doctrine. But suit yourself. As I said, I am not going to deal with it anymore.

 

[Mr GLee]

Yes, due to the fall of man, Jesus stepped out of heaven and died on the Cross for us. Thus placing believing man 'in Christ'. Imputing the righteous of Christ to him. As well as man receiving the very Spirit of Christ. (Rom. 8:9)

I do consider that an elevation from man in the Garden.

Lees

Amen
I would offer.

From my experience many say God does not need faith a powerful plan before he created. In effect saying God has no powerful faith as a plan and needs no faith or understanding thing just appear. . Bang,

the opening loving commandment in James as warning against blasphemy which attributing the power of let the be faith of Christ giving it over to dying mankind.as if God has or needs none.

It would seem faith a powerful mystery word a place that causes division taking away the power of faith, power to believe the unseen eternal.

Not the power of Abraham or Rehab dying mankind

A loving commandment not a good suggestion to wonder, wonder after . . have not

Note. . .(purple) my added commentary

James 2:1-7 My brethren, have not the faith (power) of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, (unseen) with respect of persons.(dying makind seen.) For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:;Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?;Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, (Christ's labor of love)love) and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love himBut ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? Do not they (that trust exercise faith towards the oral traditions of dying mankind) blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

Do we give over the Worthy name to Abraham or Rehab? or is the power of Christ faithfulness working in them with them?

Faith is creative power "let there be" and it was "God's alone good faithful powerful work"

Like Peter when the load was added prayed increase its holy power of faith trusting, hoping Christ in him would bring it to pass,
.
Imputed not of one self

 

[JIM]

It was Abraham's faith that pleased God. Not imputed righteousness. Righteousness cannot be imputed until the debt for sin is satisfied by one who is without sin. Please read the link to gain an understanding of the biblical definition of imputed righteousness.
biblegateway.com/resources/encyclopedia-of-the-bible/Impute-Imputation

Obviously, the effect Jesus sacrifice on the cross was retroactive back to the very beginning. The imputation of righteousness by God to Abraham is the state of Abraham's standing before God. It establishes the after-death position in paradise waiting for the second coming of Christ at which time all of the righteous will be rewarded with life in heaven.

There is nothing that kept God from imputing His righteousness to Abraham prior to the cross. I read through the article you posted and I found nothing that would support your idea that God had to wait until after Jesus' sacrifice before He would Justify Abraham.

 

[Arial]

Obviously, the effect Jesus sacrifice on the cross was retroactive back to the very beginning. The imputation of righteousness by God to Abraham is the state of Abraham's standing before God. It establishes the after-death position in paradise waiting for the second coming of Christ at which time all of the righteous will be rewarded with life in heaven.

There is nothing that kept God from imputing His righteousness to Abraham prior to the cross. I read through the article you posted and I found nothing that would support your idea that God had to wait until after Jesus' sacrifice before He would Justify Abraham.

But did you understand what imputation is? That was the purpose of the link. It is being mishandled.

 

[JIM]

But did you understand what imputation is? That was the purpose of the link. It is being mishandled.

Yes, I understand what imputation is. But the author of the article, it seems, did not.

 

[Arial]

Yes, I understand what imputation is. But the author of the article, it seems, did not.

Oh! OK!. Tell me where he was wrong and explain to me what imputation is---biblically