The elephant named Trinity.~

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Ever wonder what they are afraid of? I do.

No fear. The trinity is not in the Bible. It's really that simple as to why we reject it. Jesus did not teach the trinity. Why is that not good enough for you?

 

[Eleanor]

Ever wonder what they are afraid of? I do.

I suspect it is nothing more than ignorance of the NT understood in the light of itself, which "itself" (specific Scriptures) they refuse to address, as in post #181, thereby proving their ignorance which I assert.

 

[Eleanor]

No fear. The trinity is not in the Bible.

Contraire. . .that Jesus is God is in the Bible, taught by his apostles:

1) Mt 3:3 (Isa 40:3) - Isaiah prophecies a voice of one calling in the desert, "Prepare the way for YHWH," which was John the Baptist (Mk, Lk).
John prepared the way for Jesus (Mk 1:-8, Lk 3:16, Jn 1:29-34). . .making Jesus the YHWH of Isa 40:3.

2) Ro 10:9, 13 (Joel 2:32) - Joel prophesies that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved," which Paul quotes and applies to Jesus. . .making Jesus the YHWH of Joel 2:32.

3) Heb 1:6 (Dt 32:43) - Moses said, "Rejoice, O nations, with his people, and let all the angels worship him (YHWH), for he will avenge the blood of his servants (Septuagint translation), which Hebrews quotes and applies to Jesus. . .making Jesus the YHWH of Dt 32:43.

4) Eph 4:8-9 (Ps 68:18) - The psalmist states, "When you ascended on high. . .that you, O YHWH, might dwell there," which Paul applies to the ascended Christ. . .making Christ the YHWH of Ps 68:18

5) Jn 19:37 (Zec 12:10) - Zechariah prophesies that they will look on YHWH (12:1-2), the one they have pierced, which John applies to Jesus. . . making Jesus the YHWH of Zec 12:1-2, 10.

6) Lk 4:18-21 (Isa 61:1, 8) - Isaiah's prophecy identifies YHWH of vv. 7-8 with the Messiah of v. 1, which Jesus applies to himself. . .
making Jesus the YHWH of Isa 61:1, 7-8.

7) Rev 1:12-18 (Isa 44:6, 48:12) - In Rev 1:12-18, Jesus (1:18, 2:8) identifies himself as the First and the Last, which is YHWH of Isa 44:6, 48:12. . .making Jesus the YHWH of Isa 44:6, 48:12.

8) In Rev 21:6, 22:12-13, Jesus (1:18, 2:8) is the Alpha and Omega who is the Lord God of Rev 1:8.

9) In Rev 20:11-13 w/Jn 5:22, 27, 9:39, the one on the throne is Jesus, who in Rev 21:7 is God. . .making Jesus the God of Rev 21:7.

10) Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 (Ge 1:1, Isa 44:24, Jer 10:16) - Isa 44:24 says YHWH created alone, while Jn 1:3, Col 1:16-17, Heb 1:2b, 10 say Jesus brought all things into being, created all things including angels and by his power holds them in existence, and made the universe. . .so according to John, Paul and Hebrews, Jesus is the Elohim Creator YHWH of Ge, Isa and Jer.

CRICKETS. . .

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

Contraire. . .that Jesus is God is in the Bible, taught by his apostles:

1) Mt 3:3 (Isa 40:3) - Isaiah prophecies a voice of one calling in the desert, "Prepare the way for YHWH," which was John the Baptist (Mk, Lk).
John prepared the way for Jesus (Mk 1:-8, Lk 3:16, Jn 1:29-34). . .making Jesus the YHWH of Isa 40:3.

Pure Eisegesis.

The idolatry is seen in making a teaching completely absent from the 66 books of Scripture AS IF it were the central message and a salvation issue.

You can’t make this stuff up! Its so ridiculous how the man-is-god thesis lures people into idolatry.

 

[Soldier of Christ1516]

2) Ro 10:9, 13 (Joel 2:32) - Joel prophesies that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved," which Paul quotes and applies to Jesus. . .making Jesus the YHWH of Joel 2:32.

This is absurdity on top of absurdity! If I get promoted at work Monday and a bunch of people have to report to me when they call off, that does not make me the Governor of Idaho.

Consider this analogy. You are drowning in the open ocean. The captain of the Coast Guard ship sails to your position and orders an ensign to pull you from the water. Who rescued you, the captain or the ensign?

 

[grace2]

You can’t make this stuff up!

They are making stuff up. They will not give up.

They can continue the status quo since they made up a triune god.

they are strangled themselves with their mess and don't know how to fix it.

That's why the Trinity thread is a never-ending debate.

 

[Eleanor]

Pure Eisegesis.

First Rule of Biblical Exegesis: Assertion without Biblical demonstration is assertion without Biblical merit.

Put your money (Biblical demonstration) where your mouth is.

All hat. . .no cowboy.

 

[Eleanor]

This is absurdity on top of absurdity!
If I get promoted at work Monday and a bunch of people have to report to me when they call off, that does not make me the Governor of Idaho.

I'm sure you'll understand if I agree with the apostle Paul in Ro 10:9, 13, the apostle appointed by and speaking with the authority of Jesus in:

Ro 10:9, 13 (Joel 2:32) - Joel prophesies that "everyone who calls on the name of YHWH will be saved," which
Paul quotes and applies to Jesus. . .making Jesus the YHWH of Joel 2:32.

All hat. . .no cowboy.

 

[Arial]

The idolatry is seen in making a teaching completely absent from the 66 books of Scripture AS IF it were the central message and a salvation issue.

It is central to the identity of Christ. And it has actually been shown that it is present, not absent in the 66 books of the Bible. You have not given a single exegetical breakdown of any of the scriptures that have been given to you that announce Jesus as God. (The Holy Spirit also but that has not been the focus of the discussion.) So you have no business simply claiming that they don't present Christ as God and man. Until you can put your money where your mouth is, your post are no different from those of @grace2 .

Also both of you complain about long posts and don't read them and yet you expect us to believe that you have made a chronological read through of the Book, ever, and are therefore an authority of what is in the 66 books. I would be willing to bet that every Trin in this thread has read cover to cover any number of times. I know I have and am in the process of doing it again right now. I am in Numbers at the moment. As well as the Psalms and Hebrews. I read through the two testaments simultaneously and when I finish the OT I keep reading through from Matt. again.

Its so ridiculous how the man-is-god thesis lures people into idolatry.

How is it idolatry if Jesus is not another god? What is both idolatry and self deceit is saying Jesus is only a created being ---a creature iow---and either worshiping Him while at the same time saying they do not worship Him, or not worshiping Him against the direct command of God. You have put yourself between a rock and a hard place.

 

[Rella]

No fear. The trinity is not in the Bible. It's really that simple as to why we reject it. Jesus did not teach the trinity. Why is that not good enough for you?

The Bible is not in the bible....SO STOP BELIEVING IT

 

[Rella]

Pure Eisegesis.

The idolatry is seen in making a teaching completely absent from the 66 books of Scripture AS IF it were the central message and a salvation issue.

You can’t make this stuff up! Its so ridiculous how the man-is-god thesis lures people into idolatr

You would know. You are doing a fine job of it

 

[Mr GLee]

Ever wonder what they are afraid of? I do.

If Jesus the son of man (dying mankind) was called God by Thomas in John 20:28. He would be performing blasphemy. God is not a man.

Thomas the prophet as a confession of faith (Christ) working in him. . acknowledged his new birth .He lovingly commanded Thomas as well as the other 11 when he breathed on (gave his understanding. . not to be faithless (no belief as it is written) But rather be faithful look to the eternal not seen .

Romans 10:10King James Version For with the (newly created ) heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Oral traditons of dying mankind look to the literal temporal (no faith) No spiritul understanding from our invisible head Christ the husband.

 

[Runningman]

This is a basic question I’ve asked with no one able to provide nothing close to a reasonable answer. Given that Jesus did NOT teach the trinity, why do followers of Jesus teach it?

None of Jesus' followers taught it in the Bible. It was a doctrine that was created later and it wasn't even mainstream until it was formalized and refined centuries later.

They make it seem so difficult, so nebulous that one has to read between the lines. Let’s forget about Jesus’ God who set the standard in the human condition of an explicit expression of directness, putting his commands in stone!

Amen!

The 1C being put no gods (including the trinitarian god) before ME, singular. And the 2C being don’t worship (4th century manmade doctrines OR any other) manmade IDOLS.

So you do agree the Trinity is a manmade idol?

 

[Arial]

None of Jesus' followers taught it in the Bible.

That is not true. See post 181, 203, 73, 192.

 

[Runningman]

That is not true. See post 181, 203,

That's a copy and paste that user leaves sitting around various threads and I've already debunked it as an erroneous presentation elsewhere. If I find that comment I'll link it here.

73

If words have meaning and God said He is the only God then that is explicit. This isn't a conditional statement where somehow or another someone can also be God by virtue of their attributes. It means God is a singular being. Not much wiggle room here since any argument to the contrary would be circular. We would always come full circle back to the fact that YHWH said He is the only God. The side effect of arguing against what YHWH and others said regarding the YHWH's (also known as the Father) status as the only true God is that someone is lying or wrong when they said this. If the Bible is authoritative, the natural conclusion is the Trinitarian's argument against this is tantamount to calling God, Jesus, and all of the disciples liars.

192.

In Romans 10:11-13 various passages from the Old Testament are referenced. I would encourage you to look those up because in one of them, Isaiah 28:16 is clear that God (YHWH) and Jesus (the cornerstone) are not the same person.

Isaiah 28
16Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

 

[Mr GLee]

The Father and the Son share the name of Yahweh.
Isaiah 42:8: “I am Yahweh, that is My name; I will not give My glory to another, Nor My praise to graven images.”
and

The Father Christ is the one good teaching master. He gave birth to the Son of man Jesus by the born again spiritual seed" Christ"

Some believed God is a Jewish man as King of Jews (false prophecy )

Yahweh the Father created with Yahweh the Son.Isaiah 44:24:

The Father declared "Let there be" and behold "my Son. . the flesh and blood creature was God alone good..

One did bow down in worship of dying flesh and blood. Jesus would never blaspheme the Holy faith as teaching power of the invisible head Christ.

Mark 10:16-18King James Version1 And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them. And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

God is not a Jewish man, as King of kings.

 

[CrowCross]

There I said it. The T word that so many are afraid of.

Bringing y'all up to date.

I had made a reply to @grace2 , in https://christcentered.community.forum/threads/why-are-so-few-saved.1902/page-6#post-81223

(This BTW is an interesting read if you have not.)

And grace2 made the comments
"Roman institutions are nothing but political.

And their trait is still living vividly.

they are so political."

Most trin churches are involved in political matters."

I was guided to respond to that with







I can only assume is their belief that If God states something we can just ignore it? The Father is political but we are not to be.....? I just really wonder how their God gets those people into position these days if people do not vote them in or out.

Twitching His nose? Or just pointing a finger to move more chess pieces in this game of humanity He created?

Yes, I know.. Rather facetious... but sometime is needed to make a point.

The point being that voting is the method God uses to put people in place in most areas today and therefore we automatically are involved in politics.

So enter now @Soldier of Christ1516 (Future reference will be SoC)

Who I quote.... BTW... everything is bolded now from here onand I cannot get it unbolded


"Concisely stated. Good to see others who can think through the inherently contradictory, idolatrous, 4th century manmade doctrine.

I tried to explain to @Rella the 3 most powerful arguments against it. Sadly, she said the debate was over when I presented the 2nd argument. LOL.

The OP question is above my pay grade. I’m content to know that few find the narrow road and rely on Roman’s 2 to question the implied premise of the question."
___________________________________________________


The debate was to prove why the Trinity is false based on the studies SoC has made.

The debate I closed because I asked a question that went unanswered
because my question was not following his debate rules.

This was my question and I still want any answer and I hope everyone who wants to will participate.

I asked this.

"Who was Jesus' Father?"

His answer was "Jesus Father is our Father, YHWH, the only true God."

This, of course is what we all believe....HOWEVER...............

Since there is no Trinity. according to SoC and There is no God the Holy Spirit according to SoC
that would mean that God YHWH used a surrogate and therefore that would make Jesus his adopted son.

And the one named in Matt 1:20 for that which is conceived in Mary is of the Holy Ghost.

and in Luke 1: 35 The angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; and for that reason the holy Child shall be called the Son of God.

But it was still the Holy spirit who SoC says is not God.

One has to wonder how a mere man could pay the eternal price for mankinds sin.

The answer is a mere man couldn't. That's the problem the anti-trintites have.

 

[Eleanor]

If Jesus the son of man (dying mankind) was called God by Thomas in John 20:28. He would be performing blasphemy. God is not a man.

Clue #1:

And Jesus blessed him for the "blasphemy."

Go figure. . .

 

[Eleanor]

None of Jesus' followers taught it in the Bible.

So you make such claims, and you haven't even read the whole Bible; e.g., the Gospel of John (Jn 1:1, 14), the apostle whom Jesus loved (Jn 11:3, 5), whose apostolic teaching is authoritative to the church, and rejection of which is rejection of Jesus (Lk 10:16).

But then we all knew that. . .thanks for removing all doubt.

 

[Mr GLee]

If words have meaning and God said He is the only God then that is explicit. This isn't a conditional statement where somehow or another someone can also be God by virtue of their attributes. It means God is a singular being. Not much wiggle room here since any argument to the contrary would be circular. We would always come full circle back to the fact that YHWH said He is the only God. The side effect of arguing against what YHWH and others said regarding the YHWH's (also known as the Father) status as the only true God is that someone is lying or wrong when they said this. If the Bible is authoritative, the natural conclusion is the Trinitarian's argument against this is tantamount to calling God, Jesus, and all of the disciples liars.

One thing I would offer.

Two a dynamic dual seems to be the one witness, one God has spoke "the law of faith" . . Let there be a bride. And there is one

Two gods to represent one . On seen created (and it was good) and the other not seen the Faithfull Creator (Let there be)

Two gods seen and unseen empowered by one Father). Christians. Sons of God empowered by eternal God with a living promise beyond the grave of a new body the bride named after her husband Christ .

Not as some a legion of men and women disembodied gods as patron saints .They serve another teaching master other than Christ. He calls us gods.

John 10:34-36King James Version34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

The Elohim dynamic dual in Genesis 1:26

We're to walk in a manner worthy of our spiritual calling a living word;