Saved in Eternity or at Calvary?

[donadams]

Where does the bible say that?

There are instances in the bible where people were saved...THEN...baptized.

Where in the Bible does it say that everything Christ did and taught, or everything we are to believe is restricted to the Bible. (John 21:25) says that not everything Christ did and taught is in the Bible. Yet (Matt 28:19 & 28:20)has Christ commanding the Apostles to teach all that He taught them.

 

[donadams]

Where does the bible say that?

There are instances in the bible where people were saved...THEN...baptized.

The apostolic church NEVER taught sola scriptura!

One, Holy, catholic, and apostolic church!

No apostles no truth:
Apostles commanded to teach all men! Matt 28:19

No apostles No sacramental grace:
Apostles commanded to sanctify all men! Matt 28:19 2 pet 1:11

No apostles no salvation: Show way of salvation. Acts 16:17

No apostles no one for the HS to lead into all truth. Jn 16:13 Jn 8:32 the pillar of truth. 1 Tim 3:25

Truth and error known by obedience to the apostles. 1 Jn 4:6

No apostles no priests to offer the Propitious atoning sacrifice of Christ, or to administer the sacraments the fruits (grace) of His sacrifice. Mal 1:11

No apostles no new covenant church, the only ark of salvation. Matt 16:18-19 Jn 20:21-23 eph 2:20
No apostles no one to absolve from sin. Jn 20:23 1 Jn 1:9

The apostolic church was commanded by Christ to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation Matt 28:19

Christ and his church are one! Acts 9:4 eph 5:24 and apostolic Matt 16:18-19 Matt 28:19 Matt 18:18 eph 2:20

 

[donadams]

Jesus paid for your sin.

There was s only one savior!

Are we required to abide in him till death? Jn 15:4 Matt 24:13

 

[Josheb]

Ephesians 1:7 KJV
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Nice verse. However, in addition to the fact a verse was proof-texted (again), the verse does not say "forgiveness is identical and synonymous with salvation." What it states, all it states, is a correlation between redemption and forgiveness, not that forgiveness and salvation are identical.

Try it again. Make the case for forgiveness and salvation being identical.

 

[CrowCross]

Saved? Not till death Matt 24:13

That's not good news for you.

 

[CrowCross]

There was s only one savior!

Are we required to abide in him till death? Jn 15:4 Matt 24:13

No. OSAS. As to why one would not abide in Christ??? Perhaps they were deceived away from Christ or perhaps they were never saved to begin with.

 

[CrowCross]

Where in the Bible does it say that everything Christ did and taught, or everything we are to believe is restricted to the Bible. (John 21:25) says that not everything Christ did and taught is in the Bible. Yet (Matt 28:19 & 28:20)has Christ commanding the Apostles to teach all that He taught them.

What else did Jesus teach them?

 

[donadams]

No. OSAS. As to why one would not abide in Christ??? Perhaps they were deceived away from Christ or perhaps they were never saved to begin with.

What does “saved” mean in your understanding?

 

[donadams]

What else did Jesus teach them?

The commandments in Matt 28:20 and acts 1:2

 

[CrowCross]

What does “saved” mean in your understanding?

Redeemed from our sins..forgiven....becoming a child of God....being with Jesus for all eternity. There's a lot more but I trust you get the point.

What does saved mean to you?

 

[CrowCross]

The commandments in Matt 28:20 and acts 1:2

And were they? You seemed to stop short.

 

[VCO]

What does “saved” mean in your understanding?

It means SAVED permanently. The LORD sees through time it self, HE knows who will be Saved, and who will fall away.

Revelation 13:8 (HCSB)
8 All those who live on the earth will worship him [the Antichrist], everyone whose name was not written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

Zechariah 14:5 (HCSB)
5 You will flee by My mountain valley, for the valley of the mountains will extend to Azal. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come and all the holy ones with Him.

 

[donadams]

Redeemed from our sins..forgiven....becoming a child of God....being with Jesus for all eternity. There's a lot more but I trust you get the point.

What does saved mean to you?

The whole process of salvation or any part of it

Redemption :
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 eph 2:1-8 1 pet 1:21-23
God gives all men sufficient truth and grace for salvation.

Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21

Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace abiding in Christ we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues, charity, suffering sacraments) Jn 15:4 Phil 1:29

Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Jn 15:4 abide in Christ Matt 3:16 believes (present tense) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)

Glorification:

Suffering required for glorification with Christ!

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

 

[donadams]

And were they? You seemed to stop short.

You tell me from sola scriptura what they are?
A list of the Ten Commandments would be nice too!

 

[prism]

Nice verse. However, in addition to the fact a verse was proof-texted (again), the verse does not say "forgiveness is identical and synonymous with salvation." What it states, all it states, is a correlation between redemption and forgiveness, not that forgiveness and salvation are identical.

Try it again. Make the case for forgiveness and salvation being identical.

Romans 5:9 KJV
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 8:30 KJV
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 4:7 KJV
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
(This also is in the context of whom God justifies)

Are you trying to make a case that God forgives some only temporarily, while others sins are forgiven for eternity?
As I see it forgiveness of sin is only through the redemption found in Christ and that is eternal. (Unless you want to follow Rome).
Blood, forgiveness and justification go hand in hand. (Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins ..Heb 9:22)

 

[Josheb]

Romans 5:9 KJV
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 8:30 KJV
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Romans 4:7 KJV
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
(This also is in the context of whom God justifies)

Again, not a single one of those verses (all of which were singled out and removed from their larger passages) actually state forgiveness is identical to salvation.

Are you trying to make a case that God forgives some only temporarily, while others sins are forgiven for eternity?

Nope.

I am waiting on you. I am waiting on you to make the case for what you believe and to do so without further delay, or obfuscation (like trying to change the subject or put the onus on me).

As I see it forgiveness of sin is only through the redemption found in Christ and that is eternal.

Yeah, sorta, no. Jesus can forgive everyone's sins without paying for any sins. Jesus can forgive a person without buying them back (redeem). You're conflating a lot of different aspects of salvation as if they are all identical and they are not. When given the benefit of the doubt and asked to make that case post after post is posted quoting single verses that do not actually state forgiveness and salvation are identical.

(Unless you want to follow Rome).

I do not, and you're dodging the question, again. I would much rather read, "I do not know how to prove that but it is what I believe," then read the last three avoidant posts that do not prove forgiveness is synonymous with or identical to salvation, which is the only thing currently asked of you..

Blood, forgiveness and justification go hand in hand.

Yes, they do but they are not identical to one another or interchangeable with one another. Christ's blood does many things, not just one, and justification comes by more than one means, and I can actually post verses that actually state those things....... when you get done making the case for forgiveness being identical to salvation.

(Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sins ..Heb 9:22)

I completely agree but you've used that verse before to prove your position and it does not state forgiveness is identical to salvation. I did not ask in blood was necessary for remission of sins. I did not ask if forgiveness is temporary or eternal, I did not ask if forgiveness comes through the redemption found in Christ, I did not ask about Rome (you and I have traded posts often enough for you know the foolishness of that question), and I did not ask whther or not blood, forgiveness, and justification go hand in hand.


I asked for the case proving forgiveness is identical to salvation.

I asked that question because I read that position asserted many posts ago. Make the case (and do it without mentioning me) or acknowledge you don't know how. I'd rather have an honest "I don't know," than subterfuge. I'd rather read a sound case but I'm okay if that cannot be done.

One more try?

 

[prism]

I asked for the case proving forgiveness is identical to salvation.

Jesus is salvation and only God forgives sins. They're found in the same Person. If my answers fall short of your liking, why continue to ask?

 

[CrowCross]

You tell me from sola scriptura what they are?
A list of the Ten Commandments would be nice too!

What are you doing to ensure your salvation?

 

[Josheb]

Jesus is salvation and only God forgives sins. They're found in the same Person.

I completely agree but that is not the same as saying forgiveness and salvation are identical.

If my answers fall short of your liking, why continue to ask?

Couple of reasons. One is that sometimes a person isn't clear in their thinking how a case for what they believe might be made but given sufficient opportunity they might rise to the occasion. A second reason is that we sometimes hold views we cannot support and recognizing that reality can be an opportunity for re-examination of our own views and perhaps further learning. I might benefit from either condition since I might learn something as the case is attempted and/or proven. Another reason is that some people make baseless claims simply to stir up division and the inability and/or unwillingness to even attempt a case betrays the trolling (Tit. 3:9-11). I have no reason to think you were trolling when forgiveness and salvation were first treated synonymously.

I suppose there's a fourth, but I rarely see that realized in discussion boards. On rare occasion someone will acknowledge they cannot make a specified case and then the posters can discuss what it means to believe something not explicitly supported with scripture. We all have those views. Try to get a Dispensationalist to quote one verse explicitly stating another temple of stone will be built in the future. There are no such scriptures. The honest and forthcoming poster will immediately acknowledge that fact and then (usually) admit their position is solely inferential and then they might walk through some of the inferences in goodwill. The more commonly occurring condition is avoidance, obfuscation and ad hominem. I can have a conversation with a Dispy who's honest and forthcoming. No one can have a conversation with someone denying the most basic facts of scripture.

If you can't make the case for forgiveness being identical to salvation that starts with even one explicit statement found in scripture, then maybe you could make a well-reasoned exegetical case using inferences scripture (rather than doctrine) provides. If not, then meh. It's okay but I don't find that informing or persuasive. We might discuss what it means to believe forgiveness is identical to salvation absent any such explicit statement but given that's not the specific topic of this discussion I feel no need to belabor the matter. You've got my point of view: we are saved both in eternity and at Calvary and since eternity is timeless our salvation reaches from before the beginning to after the end. We are saved, are being saved, and will be saved. Temporally speaking, Calvary and resurrection are both punctuation points. The salvation inaugurated at 1 Peter 1:20 runs through Calvary all the way to the other side of the grave when we are raised incorruptible and immortal, never to sin, die, or face God's wrath again.


Thanks for asking

 

[donadams]

How does one get “saved”?