Saved in Eternity or at Calvary?

[fastfredy0]

where ya' been?

Being lurking in the shadows.

So many people whose foundational truth is the Bible (which therefore excludes the RCs) coming to varying conclusions ... gets to be a bit much at times. Especially the 1000+ word posts. I do give the RCs props for having a system that keeps the troops more in line with their proposed truth than the protestants.
Aside: Got me praying occasionally for forgiveness for concepts I have about God that are wrong. It's difficult to understand an incomprehensible Being.

Also, I've been studying Bitcoin and the U.S. economical system. Interesting stuff. Apparently a lot of deception in it. History teaches every fiat system crashes in 60 to 120 years as those in charge find it advantageous to print money.

...ah, and we went to Alaska for a week ...last few days and on trip home we got COVID. Technically, I didn't test positive and was not as sick. Alaska is beautiful... leastwise, it is in August (giggle)

 

[Eleanor]

Being lurking in the shadows.

So many people whose foundational truth is the Bible (which therefore excludes the RCs) coming to varying conclusions ... gets to be a bit much at times. Especially the 1000+ word posts. I do give the RCs props for having a system that keeps the troops more in line with their proposed truth than the protestants.
Aside: Got me praying occasionally for forgiveness for concepts I have about God that are wrong. It's difficult to understand an incomprehensible Being.

Also, I've been studying Bitcoin and the U.S. economical system. Interesting stuff. Apparently a lot of deception in it. History teaches every fiat system crashes in 60 to 120 years as those in charge find it advantageous to print money.

...ah, and we went to Alaska for a week ...last few days and on trip home we got COVID. Technically, I didn't test positive and was not as sick. Alaska is beautiful... leastwise, it is in August (giggle)

I do not, and cannot, understand Bitcoin.

Just don't think God will be holding a few misconcepts against sweet ole fastfredy0.

And I hear Alaska is unsurpassable.

Been missin' ya' and your giggles.

 

[fastfredy0]

I do not, and cannot, understand Bitcoin.

Yeah, it is complicated. My sons invested over the last couple years and finally I decided to take a look. Simple explanation: Bitcoin is like gold but it as yet to be adopted as an asset like gold. I think it currently stands at 1/20th the value of gold. It is better than gold in that it can be sent to someone else in minutes whereas gold is heavy and difficult to transport. Both gold and bitcoin are "proof of work" and assets. Unlike gold which increases by 1.5% a year, the amount of Bitcoin cannot change and thus cannot be inflated by making more of it. Bitcoin cuts out the middle man where the middle man is the government and central banks. No one can take your bitcoin if you store it in a electronic wallet.
The alternative is fiat money. President Nixon disassociated fiat money from gold. At one time you could exchange US dollars for gold. Now the US government just prints fiat money to cover its debt:

1. The banks give an IOU to the treasury,
2. the treasury gives the bank bonds,
3. the bank takes the bonds to the federal reserve who prints money and gives it to the bank who
4. gives the fiat money to the US treasury
5. to be spent on government programs that help ensure their election.

This causes inflation which means the value of the dollars you have is worth less. It a form of taxation but it is not as easily recognized as taxation which is advantageous for the government. Then the government create a formula for inflation that doesn't honestly reflex inflation so when they say inflation is 3% it is more likely to be 8 or 9%. The vicious circle continues till people get fed up with the PONZI scheme and no longer use the fiat currency of the nation (i.e. Zimbabwean). The US's ponzi scheme is not as bad as that of most other countries. Also, since the U.S. dollar is recognized as the world currency, the US and print money to pay for stuff from other countries (trading deficit) and the other countries hold our bonds. Eventually, they wise up and won't take our bonds.
Bitcoin in theory could replace the government controlled central bank thus cutting out the middle man and huge bureaucracy needed to keep track of transactions between people and their banks and the banks of other people, yahda yahda.
Bitcoin probably will be able to be bought on an ETF in next 6 months if/when the government approves it. That being said, it's better to hold your own bitcoin to protect you from the government seizing it as they did with gold.
And then there's the theory that there might be less warfare with Bitcoin because governments use inflation to fund wars and inflation is more easily hid from the populace so they go along with it for a longer time. The expense of the Viet Nam war is why Nixon went of the gold standard.
To indoctrinate the populace, the people in school at taught Kensyian economics that teaches over spending (inflation) encourages spending that encourages economic growth which fits the government's agenda.
That being said, it's more complicated than that and maybe I'm the one that talking out of my butt. Maybe I'm deceived. Maybe not.

Anecdotal true stories: my son's high school's friend's brother bought Bitcoin many years ago and made $100 million dollars. Meanwhile, my son's friends also bought Bitcoin and had it on his computer and accidentally reformatted the hard drive and lost his Bitcoin (I don't know how much)

Final financial advice: be one of God's adopted children ... or at least marry rich ... giggle

Just don't think God will be holding a few misconcepts against sweet ole fastfredy0.

Yeah, guess Christ is interceding for that too ...

Apologies for being 'off topic'.

 

[Eleanor]

Yeah, it is complicated. My sons invested over the last couple years and finally I decided to take a look. Simple explanation: Bitcoin is like gold but it as yet to be adopted as an asset like gold.

And right there is where it loses me.

That sounds like nothing, just created out of thin air, which some agree is really something of value.

I think it currently stands at 1/20th the value of gold. It is better than gold in that it can be sent to someone else in minutes whereas gold is heavy and difficult to transport. Both gold and bitcoin are "proof of work" and assets. Unlike gold which increases by 1.5% a year, the amount of Bitcoin cannot change and thus cannot be inflated by making more of it. Bitcoin cuts out the middle man where the middle man is the government and central banks. No one can take your bitcoin if you store it in a electronic wallet.
The alternative is fiat money. President Nixon disassociated fiat money from gold. At one time you could exchange US dollars for gold. Now the US government just prints fiat money to cover its debt:

1. The banks give an IOU to the treasury,
2. the treasury gives the bank bonds,
3. the bank takes the bonds to the federal reserve who prints money and gives it to the bank who
4. gives the fiat money to the US treasury
5. to be spent on government programs that help ensure their election.

This causes inflation which means the value of the dollars you have is worth less. It a form of taxation but it is not as easily recognized as taxation which is advantageous for the government. Then the government create a formula for inflation that doesn't honestly reflex inflation so when they say inflation is 3% it is more likely to be 8 or 9%. The vicious circle continues till people get fed up with the PONZI scheme and no longer use the fiat currency of the nation (i.e. Zimbabwean). The US's ponzi scheme is not as bad as that of most other countries. Also, since the U.S. dollar is recognized as the world currency, the US and print money to pay for stuff from other countries (trading deficit) and the other countries hold our bonds. Eventually, they wise up and won't take our bonds.
Bitcoin in theory could replace the government controlled central bank thus cutting out the middle man and huge bureaucracy needed to keep track of transactions between people and their banks and the banks of other people, yahda yahda.
Bitcoin probably will be able to be bought on an ETF in next 6 months if/when the government approves it. That being said, it's better to hold your own bitcoin to protect you from the government seizing it as they did with gold.
And then there's the theory that there might be less warfare with Bitcoin because governments use inflation to fund wars and inflation is more easily hid from the populace so they go along with it for a longer time. The expense of the Viet Nam war is why Nixon went of the gold standard.
To indoctrinate the populace, the people in school at taught Kensyian economics that teaches over spending (inflation) encourages spending that encourages economic growth which fits the government's agenda.
That being said, it's more complicated than that and maybe I'm the one that talking out of my butt. Maybe I'm deceived. Maybe not.

Anecdotal true stories: my son's high school's friend's brother bought Bitcoin many years ago and made $100 million dollars. Meanwhile, my son's friends also bought Bitcoin and had it on his computer and accidentally reformatted the hard drive and lost his Bitcoin (I don't know how much)

Final financial advice: be one of God's adopted children ... or at least marry rich ... giggle


Yeah, guess Christ is interceding for that too ...

Apologies for being 'off topic'.

 

[fastfredy0]

That sounds like nothing, just created out of thin air, which some agree is really something of value.

You're right. But the economy is very inefficient without the use of money. Money is a PROOF OF WORK to be traded. I have an apple orchard and sell apples. You have a farm and sell corn. We can barter but that becomes cumbersome when you want to buy an apple but I don't want any corn. So money is created to represent PROOF OF WORK to be traded. Money was glass beads in one culture in Africa. They traded whatever for glass beads. The problem with their currency occurred when the Europeans came to trade and the Europeans knew how to make glass beads easily which made the currency useless in short order. US dollars work the same way and was originally backed by gold. As long as the population believes the printed paper is worth something the system works. When the US government prints too much money it causes inflation and erodes confidence in the dollar. All governments eventually print too much money and the people caught on and the currency collapses. Gold can't be created (well, it can be increased by mining at 1.5% a year) and therefore is a better medium for money (proof of work). Bitcoin is better still, though it is not as widely recognized as money (proof of work to be traded). El Salvador currently uses it as their currency because their population wouldn't use the fiat currency because the country printed so much fiat that the PONZI scheme broke down.
The reason why fiat paper money works so long is the system is so complicated that people don't understand it till one day the debt becomes so great that the system collapses.

 

[CrowCross]

I lean towards Calvary (Incarnation) but many lean towards eternity (predestination).
Are you dogmatic or leaning one way or another? Which 'n why?

Just like we are saved at God's appointed time when we believe the gospel, and we are saved at glorification. I believe there is an ordo salutis. Get what I am saying?

Before time began...God decided who was going to be saved and not saved....from the pool of all humans God chose some, but not all.
All humans deserved the penalty of sin....but God was gracious to some and provided mercy to them. To those God didn't choose they got justice.

When does that moment of "salvation" technically occur? That is when one receives the Holy Spirit...When one repents and calls upon God for salvation. This may occur at any point in life but only when God the Father grants that person the ability to come to Christ.

As far as "ordo salutis" is concerned I believe much of that order happens at the same time. God may determine a person will be saved in pre-history...then place events in some peoples lives such as presenting the gospel over and over again where they finally realize it when they are regenerated, "choose" so to speak, believe and receive the Holy Spirit.

I say ETERNITY. My argument is based on cause and effect. I'd say God chooses to save the elect first (suprlapsarian) and this choice is the cause of the events God choose to cause to best perform His purpose. So, being saved in Eternity is the First Cause and though the Second Cause (Calvary) is necessary, it importance is secondary.

I agree.

 

[Carbon]

Before time began...God decided who was going to be saved and not saved....from the pool of all humans God chose some, but not all.
All humans deserved the penalty of sin....but God was gracious to some and provided mercy to them. To those God didn't choose they got justice.

When does that moment of "salvation" technically occur? That is when one receives the Holy Spirit...When one repents and calls upon God for salvation. This may occur at any point in life but only when God the Father grants that person the ability to come to Christ.

As far as "ordo salutis" is concerned I believe much of that order happens at the same time. God may determine a person will be saved in pre-history...then place events in some peoples lives such as presenting the gospel over and over again where they finally realize it when they are regenerated, "choose" so to speak, believe and receive the Holy Spirit.


I agree.

Okay

 

[Carbon]

As far as "ordo salutis" is concerned I believe much of that order happens at the same time. God may determine a person will be saved in pre-history...then place events in some peoples lives such as presenting the gospel over and over again where they finally realize it when they are regenerated, "choose" so to speak, believe and receive the Holy Spirit.

Thanks for sharing

 

[CrowCross]

Thanks for sharing

Your'e welcome. To be honest I don't care if one believes in predestination or the Armenian view....I just hope they get saved. The bible doesn't say you have to understand all the ins and outs of soteriology to become saved.

 

[brightfame52]

My Answer is Both, the Elect are Saved in Eternity by Purpose 2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
Yet that Purpose was grounded in the Cross, Christ coming to perform a saving/redeeming work 1 Pet 1:18-20
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Rev 13:8

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world


See what the Eternal God Purposed before time and what transpired in time are all one with Him

 

[donadams]

Just like we are saved at God's appointed time when we believe the gospel, and we are saved at glorification. I believe there is an ordo salutis. Get what I am saying?

Explain rom 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

 

[donadams]

Salvation is the door (to eternal life).
Holiness is the way of life of the saved.
The Holy Spirit is the effecting power.
The glory of God is the goal.

What is eternal life?

 

[donadams]

PERSONALLY, I was "saved" (born again) in '63, when in faith under conviction of SIN and of judgement, I repented and called upon God for salvation. Then the Holy Spirit indwelled, and everything changed.

Baptism?

 

[donadams]

Your'e welcome. To be honest I don't care if one believes in predestination or the Armenian view....I just hope they get saved. The bible doesn't say you have to understand all the ins and outs of soteriology to become saved.

How to get saved?

 

[Carbon]

Explain rom 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

When is salvation? When one is saved here on earth or at the last day?

The answer is - Yes.

 

[CrowCross]

How to get saved?

Do you know how to become saved?

 

[CrowCross]

Baptism?

Jesus told the thief on the cross baptism wasn't required. Now, I get it, Jesus didn't come right out and say that....but the thief went to paradise that night...and wasn't baptized.

 

[Eleanor]

What is eternal life?

Eternal life is God's divine life in our human spirit, lost by Adam and re-imparted to us at our rebirth (Jn 3:3-5).

Three kinds of spirit life--human, angelic, divine.

 

[Mr GLee]

Baptism?

Which kind of baptism? The baptism of the water of the word by which Christ washes his the bride wth his doctrines of love The water of the word the gospel of our salvation it falls to earth it brings new life where no life was . Not earthly inspired of the evil one.

Deuteronomy 32King James Version32 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth. My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

The baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Ephesians 5:25-27King James Version25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

The other baptism as a ceremonial law using the things seen to represent the unseen things of God .A shadow of the work of the unseen Holy Spirit. It did nothing to the user it was a sign to the unbelieving world a levite had desire to join the priesthood .

Aaron two sons on the first day sprinkled on H20 but they disobeyed the commandment not to add thier own personal touch "I did it. . it proves it "(called strange fire) They were consumed by fire, not a hint of smoke on the ceremonial clothes..

The two different kinds of Baptisms. One spiritual eternal not seen the other literal seen. The temporal cerimonial seen is used to give the vision of the unseen things of God revealing his love to our new hearts through his living abiding word.Believers understand God or walk by his work of faith labor of love. Faith the invisible things of God No faith as a understanding from God. no God walk by faith the unseen head the eternal things of God not by sight after dying Peter our brother in the Lord.

 

[donadams]

When is salvation? When one is saved here on earth or at the last day?

The answer is - Yes.

Not explained
What about Matt 24:13