Sanctification

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

That's what fulfillment looks like.
The promises of seed (Christ, Gal 3:16), and an everlasting possession (heavenly land, Heb 11:13-16) have been fulfilled.

Do you not accept authoritative NT apostolic teaching of Ro 11:23 that they will be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people going all the way back to Abraham (Heb 11:16), the church, of both OT and NT saints (Heb 11:40, 12:22-23), if they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23)?

I am presenting the literal meaning of authoritative apostolic teaching in Ro 11:23.

I've touched on all of these with Rev. Feel free to read and watch along.

 

[Eleanor]

I understand and agree...

I just think there are two perspectives on Sanctification; instant Imputation of a complete Sanctification in God's Perspective, and a growth toward Sanctification in our Perspective. Without Holiness, no one will see the LORD

Justification (dikaiosis) is imputation of righteousness (Ro 4:1-11); i.e., a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a finding of right standing with the court of God's justice. It is a forensic righteousness, not the actual righteousness of sanctification (dikaiosune) through obedience in the Holy Spirit, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16-19).

 

[Deleted member 5]

When God brings Israel in again, it will be "like life from the dead." Romans 11:15.

Sounds dramatic.

 

[ReverendRV]

Going to the Doctors, be back in a couple of hours...

 

[Deleted member 5]

Going to the Doctors, be back in a couple of hours...

Wear clean underwears.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

When God brings Israel in again, it will be "like life from the dead." Romans 11:15.

Sounds dramatic.

Very.

Ezekiel 37

1 The hand of the Lord was on me, and he brought me out by the Spirit of the Lord and set me in the middle of a valley; it was full of bones. 2 He led me back and forth among them, and I saw a great many bones on the floor of the valley, bones that were very dry. 3 He asked me, “Son of man, can these bones live?”

I said, “Sovereign Lord, you alone know.”

4 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to these bones and say to them, ‘Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath[a] enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.’”

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them.

9 Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to it, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: Come, breath, from the four winds and breathe into these slain, that they may live.’” 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and breath entered them; they came to life and stood up on their feet—a vast army.

11 Then he said to me: “Son of man, these bones are the people of Israel. They say, ‘Our bones are dried up and our hope is gone; we are cut off.’ 12 Therefore prophesy and say to them: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: My people, I am going to open your graves and bring you up from them; I will bring you back to the land of Israel. 13 Then you, my people, will know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and bring you up from them. 14 I will put my Spirit in you and you will live, and I will settle you in your own land. Then you will know that I the Lord have spoken, and I have done it, declares the Lord.’”

 

[Eleanor]

It is most definitely a word in the Bible ( Spiritual ) but Spiritual Israel is not. But let's say it was. Can it be applied to the body of Christ? I am as gentile as they come. I am also a spiritual descendant of Abraham...but that does not make me a Hebrew.

The body of Christ ( the church ) is made up of individual gentiles and "jews". The distinction ( dividing wall ) is removed there for born again believers. Children of God. They become the church...not Hebrews. Not Israel. One fine day God will turn His attention back too Israel and the current time of the Gentiles will end and "all Israel will be saved". That does not mean an end to the church...it means a reckoning against the enemies of Israel. The boom will be lowered. All Israel ( whatever that means ) will be saved in Messiah. Just like the church. But the distinctions remain. As do the promises specific to Israel.

Except for that part in NT apostolic teaching, where the destiny of Israel is to be grafted back into the one people of God going all the way back to Abraham (Ro 11:16), the church, of both OT and NT saints (Heb 11:40, 12:22-23), if they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23).

My view is more complex than Amil or Postmil. Does complex equate to wrong? No...of course not. Just not as easy to parse out. Especially when you have to dig through the traditions of your denomination.

Learning generally doesn't change a person. Understanding does. So I pray greater understanding for you now and in the days to come. Whether you shift your views or not is irrelevant where I'm concerned. It would be nice to have another person to natter at that understands my passion but it's not necessary for our purposes here. My job is to point out stones unturned. Whether you find bugs or jewels underneath them is your thing. It's the best I can offer in love.

My job is to understand prophetic riddles not stated clearly (Nu 12:8) and, therefore, subject to more than one interpretation, in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

Except for that part in NT apostolic teaching, where the destiny of Israel is to be grafted back into the one people of God going all the way back to Abraham (Ro 11:16), the church, of both OT and NT saints (Heb 11:40, 12:22-23), if they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23).

My job is to understand prophetic riddles not stated clearly (Nu 12:8) and, therefore, subject to more than one interpretation, in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

You go, Eleanor.

 

[Eleanor]

I've touched on all of these with Rev. Feel free to read and watch along.

in this thread?

 

[Carbon]

I agree that the two cannot be separated.

Amen!

The Bible tells us that God works in us to conform us to the image of His Son:

Amen.

However, I also do not think that we are to be passive in this process

I agree. James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

Phil 2.
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

. The NT often tells us to flee temptation, to use our spiritual gifts, not to quench the Spirit, etc. and of course pray. God uses these things to make us grow in our faith. Does that make sanctification synergistic? I guess it may depend on how you look at it.

Personally, I think, whatever part I may have in it, anything I do to increase in godliness is first and foremost a result of His work in me - drawing me to walk more closely with him, encouraging me to put into action the gifts He has given me, calling me to know Him more and more.

Amen!

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

in this thread?

Repeatedly. The only thing not directly touched upon is Hebrews 11. With that interpretation it must be getting very crowded in heaven. What with all the thrones laying about. Or perhaps he author is referring to the eventual remaking of both heaven and earth unbroken?

Anywho...it's been fun. Time for the weekend.

 

[Eleanor]

It is most definitely a word in the Bible ( Spiritual ) but Spiritual Israel is not. But let's say it was. Can it be applied to the body of Christ? I am as gentile as they come. I am also a spiritual descendant of Abraham...but that does not make me a Hebrew.

The body of Christ ( the church ) is made up of individual gentiles and "jews". The distinction ( dividing wall ) is removed there for born again believers. Children of God. They become the church...not Hebrews. Not Israel. One fine day God will turn His attention back too Israel and the current time of the Gentiles will end and "all Israel will be saved". That does not mean an end to the church...it means a reckoning against the enemies of Israel. The boom will be lowered. All Israel ( whatever that means ) will be saved in Messiah. Just like the church. But the distinctions remain. As do the promises specific to Israel.

My view is more complex than Amil or Postmil. Does complex equate to wrong? No...of course not. Just not as easy to parse out. Especially when you have to dig through the traditions of your denomination.

Learning generally doesn't change a person. Understanding does. So I pray greater understanding for you now and in the days to come. Whether you shift your views or not is irrelevant where I'm concerned. It would be nice to have another person to natter at that understands my passion but it's not necessary for our purposes here. My job is to point out stones unturned. Whether you find bugs or jewels underneath them is your thing. It's the best I can offer in love.

So your view of eschatology is emotionally held?

 

[brightfame52]

I'm not speaking of soteriology here. Nor am I arguing under what Power we work. I'm speaking of Sanctification vs Mortification. Are they synonymous? I don't believe so. Ultimately all glory goes to God for both but we are involved in the work of it ( mortification ). Not for salvation's sake but for conformation to the image of our Savior.

Which brings to mind a similar conversation concerning the Indicative and the Imperative.

A good video, very instructive, I wonder if the fellow believes in eternal justification ? He articulated it in any case. I heard him say that the elect have been given the Spirit in them before the foundation, that I dont agree with, though they are in Christ positionally and legally and representatively before the foundation. He also said in Eph 2:10 that the phrase "10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

is an imperative, but it isnt, its subjunctive aorist active, its expressing an ordained purpose that will produce that result,

But overall I enjoyed the video.

 

[Eleanor]

Repeatedly. The only thing not directly touched upon is Hebrews 11. With that interpretation it must be getting very crowded in heaven.

The NT letters from the apostles are authoritative, while personal interpretation of unclear prophetic riddles (Nu 12:8) is not.
Heb 11 is what the apostle states. My job is to believe it.

What with all the thrones laying about. Or perhaps he author is referring to the eventual remaking of both heaven and earth unbroken?

Anywho...it's been fun. Time for the weekend.

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

So you view of eschatology is emotionally held?

Only when provoked. And even then it's basis is the Scriptures. You and I have different lenses. Yours is colored by Amil thought, tradition, and writing. Mine is colored by Pre-Mil and Dispensational thought and writing. I suppose I could say "tradition" but I'm not big on tradition.

Since you seem to want a scholar level of debate I suggest you reach out too the folks here:

https://www.youtube.com/@TheMastersSeminary

OR you could see if Ian has time for some questions:

Bei Facebook anmelden

Melde dich bei Facebook an, um dich mit deinen Freunden, deiner Familie und Personen, die du kennst, zu verbinden und Inhalte zu teilen.

www.facebook.com

 

[CrazyCalvinistUncle]

A good video, very instructive, I wonder if the fellow believes in eternal justification ? He articulated it in any case. I heard him say that the elect have been given the Spirit in them before the foundation, that I dont agree with, though they are in Christ positionally and legally and representatively before the foundation. He also said in Eph 2:10 that the phrase "10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

is an imperative, but it isnt, its subjunctive aorist active, its expressing an ordained purpose that will produce that result,

But overall I enjoyed the video.

Feel free to reach out to him. He's very responsive.

 

[brightfame52]

Feel free to reach out to him. He's very responsive.

I might do that

 

[Eleanor]

Only when provoked. And even then it's basis is the Scriptures. You and I have different lenses. Yours is colored by Amil thought, tradition, and writing.

Actually, my lense is not just colored, my lense is the NT.
I am not that familiar with eschatology. But I am familiar with the NT, and I recognize contra-NT teaching when I see it, regardless of the topic.

Mine is colored by Pre-Mil and Dispensational thought and writing. I suppose I could say "tradition" but I'm not big on tradition.

Since you seem to want a scholar level of debate I suggest you reach out too the folks here:

Actually, scholarly is not what I want, I just want God's mind on the matter which, therefore, must be in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, if God is not to contradict himself in his word written.
I know that God said he speaks prophecy in riddles and not clearly (Nu 12:8), therefore any interpretation must be measured by what is spoken clearly and not in riddles; i.e., authoritative NT apostolic teaching.
And I know that the Dispensational eschatology which I know about is not in agreement with Heb 11.

OR you could see if Ian has time for some questions:

Bei Facebook anmelden

Melde dich bei Facebook an, um dich mit deinen Freunden, deiner Familie und Personen, die du kennst, zu verbinden und Inhalte zu teilen.

www.facebook.com

 

[Carbon]

Actually, my lense is not just colored, my lense is the NT.
I am not that familiar with eschatology. But I am familiar with the NT, and I recognize contra-NT teaching when I see it, regardless of the topic.

Actually, scholarly is not what I want, I just want God's mind on the matter which, therefore, must be in agreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching, if God is not to contradict himself in his word written.
I know that God said he speaks prophecy in riddles and not clearly (Nu 12:8), therefore any interpretation must be measured by what is spoken clearly and not in riddles; i.e., authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

Wish you could get an Arminian to debate like this. (In scripture) They would debate themselves right out of Arminianism.

 

[Eleanor]

Wish you could get an Arminian to debate like this. (In scripture) They would debate themselves right out of Arminianism.

There is an emotional commitment to it by so many that their minds are not open to measuring its truth by authoritative NT apostolic teaching.