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Sanctification

Santification is..

  • Total voters
    11
Eleanor said:
It's not replacement theology, it's fulfillment theology.
And it's not anti-semitism, it's the destiny of Israel to be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people going all the way back to Abraham (Heb 11:16), the church, of both OT and NT saints (Heb 11:40, 12:22-23), IF they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23) as they have for 2,000 years now.
Click to expand...

Sez you. Your experience may vary as does the stream your church is in. Mine verges on replacement theology. Spiritual Israel and Spiritual Jew my left buttock.

And there is no "if". God keeps all His promises to those whom He gives them. Completely. Perfectly. Otherwise neither you nor I nor Israel has a snowballs chance in the lake of fire of surviving. There are no substitutes or "higher meanings".
 
Isn't God causing us to walk in His ways sanctification in itself; Ezekiel 36:27ff?

I see it like the gift of faith, He grants the faith, we do the believing; Philippians 1:29; Ephesians 1:19.

He positions us in sanctification, we do the walk; 1 Corinthians 1:26-31; Hebrews 12:14; Philippians 2:12-13.

Galatians 2:20 sums it up nicely: I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
 
CrazyCalvinistUncle said:
Sez you. Your experience may vary as does the stream your church is in. Mine verges on replacement theology. Spiritual Israel and Spiritual Jew my left buttock.

And there is no "if". God keeps all His promises to those whom He gives them. Completely. Perfectly. Otherwise neither you nor I nor Israel has a snowballs chance in the lake of fire of surviving. There are no substitutes or "higher meanings".
Click to expand...
I was talking to someone on Clubhouse yesterday, who is a member of MacArthur's Church. He started talking about our supposed difference between Replacement Theology, and the Premill Dispy return of Israel; asking me what I believe. I spoke of Spiritual Israel; not all Israel are Israel. He asked me a couple of different ways, but as a Fundamentalist; I said the same thing. He said he didn't like to use the term Spiritual Israel; I said I don't Mind; because it's a Verse of Scripture...

As with all disputes, there is a Category Mistake. There's the one Category of two People Groups known as the One Spiritual Israel; or there are two Categories of one People Group, IE Mankind...

I think the Bible speaks of the two Groups as one Group; IE Spiritual Israel. The New Testament makes the Old Testament more certain; Israel is better understood to be Spiritual Israel, not National Israel...

So you can see that I want to learn more about all Eschatologies; but you can also see why learning more probably won't change my Mind...
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ReverendRV said:
I was talking to someone on Clubhouse yesterday, who is a member of MacArthur's Church. He started talking about our supposed difference between Replacement Theology, and the Premill Dispy return of Israel; asking me what I believe. I spoke of Spiritual Israel; not all Israel are Israel. He asked me a couple of different ways, but as a Fundamentalist; I said the same thing. He said he didn't like to use the term Spiritual Israel; I said I don't Mind; because it's a Verse of Scripture...

As with all disputes, there is a Category Mistake. There's the one Category of two People Groups known as Spiritual Israel; or there are two Categories of one People Group, IE Mankind...

I think the Bible speaks of the two Groups as one Group; IE Spiritual Israel. The New Testament makes the Old Testament more certain; Israel is better understood to be Spiritual Israel, not National Israel...

So you can see that I want to learn more about all Eschatologies; but you can also see why learning more probably won't change my Mind...
Click to expand...

It is most definitely a word in the Bible ( Spiritual ) but Spiritual Israel is not. But let's say it was. Can it be applied to the body of Christ? I am as gentile as they come. I am also a spiritual descendant of Abraham...but that does not make me a Hebrew.

The body of Christ ( the church ) is made up of individual gentiles and "jews". The distinction ( dividing wall ) is removed there for born again believers. Children of God. They become the church...not Hebrews. Not Israel. One fine day God will turn His attention back too Israel and the current time of the Gentiles will end and "all Israel will be saved". That does not mean an end to the church...it means a reckoning against the enemies of Israel. The boom will be lowered. All Israel ( whatever that means ) will be saved in Messiah. Just like the church. But the distinctions remain. As do the promises specific to Israel.

My view is more complex than Amil or Postmil. Does complex equate to wrong? No...of course not. Just not as easy to parse out. Especially when you have to dig through the traditions of your denomination.

Learning generally doesn't change a person. Understanding does. So I pray greater understanding for you now and in the days to come. Whether you shift your views or not is irrelevant where I'm concerned. It would be nice to have another person to natter at that understands my passion but it's not necessary for our purposes here. My job is to point out stones unturned. Whether you find bugs or jewels underneath them is your thing. It's the best I can offer in love.
 
CrazyCalvinistUncle said:
It is most definitely a word in the Bible ( Spiritual ) but Spiritual Israel is not. But let's say it was. Can it be applied to the body of Christ? I am as gentile as they come. I am also a spiritual descendant of Abraham...but that does not make me a Hebrew.

The body of Christ ( the church ) is made up of individual gentiles and "jews". The distinction ( dividing wall ) is removed there for born again believers. Children of God. They become the church...not Hebrews. Not Israel. One fine day God will turn His attention back too Israel and the current time of the Gentiles will end and "all Israel will be saved". That does not mean an end to the church...it means a reckoning against the enemies of Israel. The boom will be lowered. All Israel ( whatever that means ) will be saved in Messiah. Just like the church. But the distinctions remain. As do the promises specific to Israel.

My view is more complex than Amil or Postmil. Does complex equate to wrong? No...of course not. Just not as easy to parse out. Especially when you have to dig through the traditions of your denomination.

Learning generally doesn't change a person. Understanding does. So I pray greater understanding for you now and in the days to come. Whether you shift your views or not is irrelevant where I'm concerned. It would be nice to have another person to natter at that understands my passion but it's not necessary for our purposes here. My job is to point out stones unturned. Whether you find bugs or jewels underneath them is your thing. It's the best I can offer in love.
Click to expand...
I will probably always be an Eschatological Mutt...

I too believe God is not done with Israel yet; I just don't know how. I think Israel will be Grafted back in; I just don't know how...

I just know I can't stop believing that not All Israel is Israel, that though we are Children of Abraham through Faith, in Jacob our Seed shall be Called. Jesus is the Called. We're the Called, the Unconditional Elect. The Unconditional Elect are Children of Abraham; Spiritual Israel. The Seed of Israel is passed down through Jesus...

So is the Seed of Jacob passed down through Jesus?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ReverendRV said:
I will probably always be an Eschatological Mutt...

I too believe God is not done with Israel yet; I just don't know how. I think Israel will be Grafted back in; I just don't know how...

I just know I can't stop believing that not All Israel is Israel, that though we are Children of Abraham through Faith, in Jacob our Seed shall be Called. Jesus is the Called. We're the Called, the Unconditional Elect. The Unconditional Elect are Children of Abraham; Spiritual Israel. The Seed of Israel is passed down through Jesus...

So is the Seed of Jacob passed down through Jesus?
Click to expand...
Ooopps, sorry; this is not the Eschatology Board...

I want to try to not derail Threads...
 
ReverendRV said:
:) I will probably always be an Eschatological Mutt...

I too believe God is not done with Israel yet; I just don't know how. I think Israel will be Grafted back in; I just don't know how...

I just know I can't stop believing that not All Israel is Israel, that though we are Children of Abraham through Faith, in Jacob our Seed shall be Called. Jesus is the Called. We're the Called, the Unconditional Elect. The Unconditional Elect are Children of Abraham; Spiritual Israel. The Seed of Israel is passed down through Jesus...

So is the Seed of Jacob passed down through Jesus?
Click to expand...

What does Galatians say?

 
ReverendRV said:
So is the Seed of Jacob passed down through Jesus?
Click to expand...
I think this question, if satisfactorily answered, could help me change my Mind about Spiritual Israel. If the Spiritual Seed of Jacob is passed down through Christ Alone (Sola Christus!), then it's true there is a physical Israel and a Spiritual Israel; distinct from each other...
 
ReverendRV said:
I think this question, if satisfactorily answered, could help me change my Mind about Spiritual Israel. If the Spiritual Seed of Jacob is passed down through Christ Alone (Sola Christus!), then it's true there is a physical Israel and a Spiritual Israel; distinct from each other...
Click to expand...
Not sure how you make that leap but ok. :)

And the entire "Not all Israel is Israel" thing is what my pastor attempted to pull out on me. So I handed him this:


Did I mention I get touchy about replacement theology? No matter how nicely, or obliquely, it's proffered?
 
CrazyCalvinistUncle said:
Not sure how you make that leap but ok. :)

And the entire "Not all Israel is Israel" thing is what my pastor attempted to pull out on me. So I handed him this:


Did I mention I get touchy about replacement theology? No matter how nicely, or obliquely, it's proffered?
Click to expand...
Okay, I'll stop. One thing I like about this Forum, is that it seems less inflammatory...

I have found over the years, that when people have different views; the "Not seeing how others make that Leap", is prevalent. I usually see how others make their Leaps though. Seeing is helpful, in cutting to the Chase...
 
ReverendRV said:
Okay, I'll stop. One thing I like about this Forum, is that it seems less inflammatory...

I have found over the years, that when people have different views; the "Not seeing how others make that Leap", is prevalent. I usually see how others make their Leaps though. Seeing is helpful, in cutting to the Chase...
Click to expand...
Nah...no worries brother. I took that out on my pastor. He was gracious enough to listen and stopped using the phrase. Progress.
 
CrazyCalvinistUncle said:
Then I'll stop posting his stuff. You know where he is. He's just my go too for ground level stuff. The Masters Seminary and FB forum I mentioned is for the longhaired stuff.
Click to expand...
I'm half way through the video. I can see why he says what he says; but I see a Category Mistake. Without the Category Mistake, he has a point. But I wouldn't want to press it with you, since you get touchy...
 
CrazyCalvinistUncle said:
Sez you. Your experience may vary as does the stream your church is in. Mine verges on replacement theology. Spiritual Israel and Spiritual Jew my left buttock. ]
Click to expand...
That's what fulfillment looks like.
The promises of seed (Christ, Gal 3:16), and an everlasting possession (heavenly land, Heb 11:13-16) have been fulfilled.
CrazyCalvinistUncle said:
And there is no "if".
Click to expand...
Do you not accept authoritative NT apostolic teaching of Ro 11:23 that they will be grafted back into the one olive tree of God's people which goes all the way back to Abraham (Heb 11:16), the church, of both OT and NT saints (Heb 11:40, 12:22-23), if they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23)?
CrazyCalvinistUncle said:
God keeps all His promises to those whom He gives them. Completely. Perfectly. Otherwise neither you nor I nor Israel has a snowballs chance in the lake of fire of surviving. There are no substitutes or "higher meanings".
Click to expand...
I am presenting the literal meaning of authoritative apostolic teaching in Ro 11:23.
 
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